Amen to that. Actually it is proving very very difficult for me. Initially I wanted her back no matter what. But now that the shock and greiving period is fading (not over), I am going through severe conflicts myself. Resistance is way too much to even describe.

So when exactly the reason prevails over feelings for them ? lol.

lol, you obviously heard my wife mention this. Funny thing is she admitted sex was great....because she was emotionally involved. Hmmm. Then why the f$#$ do you downplay it ? I may have been idiot at times but this one completely boggles my mind. I told her it was ok to not to downplay and even highlight it, but the lengths she went through to mask it was unbelievable. (i took it as a personal insult as if the whole sage wasnt devastating enough for me).

OP, great topic...just something i was hoping to run into.
I agree completely that decisive action is the best way to go about in these situations but they vary between WW and WH. In my case, WW, when she admitted to the affair, had she been kicked out..She would not have seen the following

1) change in my behavior
2) how badly she hurt me
3) going through a very remorseful time

They, in general, are very difficult to reconcile

And i think it makes a big difference in recovery. I think WH, when kicked out, tend to come back, in general for two different reasons

1) they realise they wavered primarily for sex
2) they want to get the family back together

Relatively easy to reconcile

In either case, i am assuming that the affair ended and there is NC.

It sure does, doesnt it ? I think the reason is they believe their feelings much more strongly. And use that to justify everything else. Shows the power of EA i guess...especially if followed by PA.

Even Dr H says it's harder to get a WW to return to the marriage than it is a WH, so there has to be SOME significant difference.

When I worked with Steve Harley, he clearly said this.

WW's are typically already emotionally divorced. So in their foggy minds, they are just completing the divorce when the have their exit affairs.

The points about not fearing the courts are valid. I've been on my soap box over and over again that the law should be that a wayward spouse is considered a less qualified parent compared to a faithful spouse, regardless of gender.

The choice to have an affair should be primary evidence of parental unfitness.

If someone wants to leave, I think the law should let them go. However, they have to leave ALL the marital assets and children with the abandoned and betrayed spouse.

You can't hold someone against her will. But you can say you can only take a suitcase full of clothes and any money you had on the day you got married. Anything else belongs to the family. Any 401(k) you earned while married, belongs to the family, the home belongs to the family, etc. If you had a car, the betrayed spouse can decide which one you get, as well as which car loan, if any, you get to keep as well.

I think there are great differences in how WW and WH act. The difference in divorce filings and Dr H's experience regarding how fewer WW's return to the marriage than WH's indicates significant differences.

Ding ding ding.

We hear so much about feelings. The problem is, often feelings are very selfish.

So I don't see operating with a strong bent towards following feelings as a positive in most cases. Feelings are often selfish. Not always, but certainly in the context of an affair.

The phrase "follow your heart" is often one that is used when telling someone to do something selfish. I.E. follow your heart and have that affair. You don't feel loved by your husband, so therefore, you must not be loved. (What a bunch of crap, feeling loved and being loved are frequently two very different things!)

But these feelings are powerful, and will lead folks to do very hurtful things in order to get their next fix of good feelings.

Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Seems to me that following one's heart is a dangerous practice. I think this scripture speaks to that very attitude, that following your feelings can lead to one's deception.

I think folks are frequently deceived by such feelings. Those who are more lead by their feelings are more vulnerable to such deceptions.

"Feelings" are great. We all had feelings when we met/dated/married our WSs/xWS. There is nothing inherently wrong with having feelings.

The problem results when we act purely on our feelings in the ABSENCE of sound judgement and upright standards. Most of us "feel" like sleeping 2 extra hours when the 7am alarm rings on monday mornings. Most of us "feel" more like buying that shiny new car or fancy new wardrobe than paying our credit card or utility bills. When we ignore sound judgment and rationalize away our character standards, we sacrifice the long-term good for the short-term pleasurable indulgence.

This is ultimately the road to ruin, because feelings in the absence of honor are very selfish, shallow, and temporary fixes at best.

wow, i have to commend you. Great post and also what you did. Not me. I went for Plan A. Well barely. One sign of wavering from her, I will just explode and she KNOWS it.

Well in my defense, or our defense, I was being protective of the family from the shame, I guess. I dont know.

Back on the topic, your point about taking longer for a WW for WW to come out the fog (upto six months) I am not surprised at all. My WW (can i call her xWW yet ? by the way, that could a topic by itself - When does a WW change status from WW to xWW ?) is changing but still has a long way to go in my opinion and does not even want to think about recommittment of any kind right now.


Agree. Some point you got to draw the line. Plus recovery is completely meaningless or slows down to a grinding halt.

While i agree with you that it is definitely societal. And that society is definitely changing. Women are far more brazen than they were when i was younger.

However I know in my own experience, i was taught that you only had sex with someone once you were married to that person so obviously LOVE (or feelings or an emotional attachment) SHOULD be involved if you are marrying someone. And i taught my daughters the same thing, to respect theirselves enough to not be used as a "sex object" which IMHO is what women who have "sex" just to be having "sex" do to themselves. That being intimate with someone was something that should wait until you are married.

My mother went so far as to tell me (which i in turn told my daughters because i still believe it is at least partially true even in today's society), that men prefer to "date" girls who "will", they prefer to "marry" girls who "don't or didn't".

Also i was speaking generally. NOTHING is ALWAYS one way or the other IMHO.

Oh my goodness. I so much agree with this post. It is how i have felt about affairs all along. I am not one who belives in the "fog". I believe that WSs simply act selfishly during their affair. And this states that very well IMHO.

The problem with this theory is they think they loved someone and they marry and realise down the road they are not happy for whatever reason and get into a sleazy affair. And then all of sudden rationalise with the following arguments

1) i actually was never in love with this person (BS) or never loved my BS
2) we are completely incompatible people (WS and BS)
3) i never knew what "real love" was until i met the other person and now i do ! and i can do whatever i want to with this other person
4) i should do whatever i can do to follow my feelings even if it means destroying the family

If they (BS and WS) end up divorcing, and the BS marries the other person the cycle could repeat itself until the sleazy WS realises - "wait a minute, i could be the one that is the problem here. Or may be i should fix myself first before blaming others or thinking in a selfish manner"

Yes women might be more brazen nowadays but dont let that dither anyone. There is lot more great information out there now a days that is equally powerful to counter that. And that is very comforting to know. (by the way same applies to BWs too).

Now you are talking about WAYWARDNESS and IMHO there are also not many differences in the two genders either. My FWH said many of the same things that you FWW said.

1) i just think that we shouldn't be together any more, i mean we don't get along
2) we are completely incompatible people (WS and BS)and me and the FOW have much more in common
3) she makes me feel "alive"
4) i should do whatever i can do to be happy even if it means destroying the family

IMHO i still believe that the differences in behavior where "relationships" are concerened (whether they are with the spouse or in an affair) are more due to differences in the thought processes of each gender regarding "relationships" in general.

But that is just my persoanl opinion.

And also FWIW, with my FWH i just told him to leave our house and that i wanted nothing else to do with him. I did not want his money or anything else. I just wanted him "gone" and the only reason i wanted him to leave our house is because he had no desire to take our children, he wanted them to stay with me and i did not want to have to make them change schools as it was not their fault in any way.

Point taken Still_Crazy. I was just trying to say that it takes much more than just romantic love to make a good marriage work/sustain. I think people put way too much emphasis on it and tend to throw everything else out the window. I wish everyone could say "what can i do first to save this marriage or fall in love with my spouse all over again" ? as opposed to just giving up and taking the easy way out. Well, in that case, we would not have had so many affairs to begin with, would we ?

By the way, this applies to both WWs and WHs.

Well i would have to agree with you on this on all parts.

were you talking to MY WH? THese are almost verbatim to what mine said to me. And I feel if you have to go to someone else to be happy then you are not really happy. At least us BS' are spending time learning about ourselves. And our perfect WS' found another person to MAKE them happy.

what ever happened to being CONTENT> what is this obsession with HAPPINESS> is happiness dumping your family for OP>

What is love to WS, Lust, obsession, sneaking around. What?

You guys & gals on this thread are simply amazing...

Thanks to all for the sage wisdom

You know between this thread and another posted on GQ talking about relationships.

I find it sad that i hear so many couples these days entering into their marriage with the thought "if it does not work out we can always get a divorce".

IMHO that is not the way you should enter into a marriage. Marriage is HARD WORK without adding any other of life pressures, then throw infidelity in the mix and it becomes REALLY HARD WORK.

You have to be willing to do that work on a daily basis.