I commend these men who were able to follow through with Plan A effectively.
They had to deal with a foggy WW, another man and a lot of mental anguish.
Melody you are right, I do not how I will react until I truly face that sitch. I can only exclaim what I feel I may do.

I just know that I am not willing to be a doormat and I'm not going to be.
Divorce does hurt children, but the person who committed the infidelity knows in the back of their mind what they are doing. They are just too selfish to see the long term damage their actions could cause. If I divorced, I would be well within my rights to do so. My children are 20,17 and 12. I would always be there for them.

I realize a lot of these men thought as I do now and maybe I am having tunnel vision, but I have seen too many men on this site and others who have been railroaded by their WW's. I choose right now not to be that way.

You know shaken, it's not an either/or thing...You seem to be of the mind that it's either "kick 'em to the curb" or "be a doormat"...Plan A done properly does NOT look like either of those things...As I've already said, Plan A is an ACTION, it is NOT a REACTION...IMO, it is the Plan that takes the MOST guts of all...It is NOT for wimps...No way, no how...

Mrs. W

Yes - pretty much every BS here would have said that BEFORE they caught their spouse in an affair.

But REAL experience shows few BS's actually do that in the light of discovery.

It's wonderful to be able to be tough here and scream what you WOULD do but actually until you are in the situation, it's all just meaningless words.

Great to spout off from your current luxurious position though.

When you actually have to confront this, then you actually see what you are really made of. Many BS's do not take the easy path (kick em to the curb) but instead do the real hard work of Plan A, Plan B and recovery.

Until you've had to make the choice yourself you are hardly qualified to judge people who's shoes you haven't walked in.

Does your wife know about these "crushes" shaken? She absolutely should.

Mrs. W

Talk is cheap and easy when you don't have to act on it buddy.

I'd say this correlates with my experience, too. We are talking about adult cheaters , not pubescent schoolkids.They can clearly control their actions but choose not to.
I'm no expert on Plan A, but , it doe seem to get dangerously close to doormatville which is a cetain turn-off. And, if one goes doormat, one has to deal with the lloss of self respect that comes with it. Not fun.
Iwould not rage or threaten. But, I'd set clear boundaries and make sure she feels the full consequences of this via exposure, cutting finanaces etc. And, remaining calm in the face of her fury, is good advice.

Also, does the WS ever full regain respect for the BS after having done this? Seems they might look at the BS as weak, a pushover.

Zelmo,

What specifically does Plan A offer that seems like being a doormat? I keep hearing this over and over again all over the forums these days and wonder what specifically seems like it is letting the WW walk over the BH with no consequences for her.

I have myself advised numerous men that have come here that Plan A is NOT being a doormat and just letting her run over you while continuing the affair.

When I got here the advice was being given to many that being a doormat will NOT win back a wayward wife because it makes a man appear weak and what woman in her right mind would want a man that is week?

In days of old the way these things were handled was by duel. I would challenge the interloper and the better swordsman or the better shot would come out victorious. Now books and movies are all well and good, but I wonder how many affairs were actually settled this way throughout history. Today, shooting OM will land me in prison and in some jurisdictions perhaps get me a lethal injection or turn me into a crispy critter in the electric chair.

So, given the fact that I can't shoot him and I really don't want to shoot her, which might be viable if I didn't want to save the marriage but given that as a starting point, shooting her won't accomplish much, what would you propose that a BH do that is NOT part of Plan A, that is contradictory to Plan A or that Plan A does not address.

Keep in mind that Plan A is about saving the marriage. It is NOT about fixing long standing issues, resolving conflicts that might have been around for years nor even getting to the root reason/cause of the affair. It is designed to do one thing and one thing only. That is, it is designed to give a BS the best course of action to show the WS what the marriage can be like if it survives while at the same time making it as difficult to carry on the affair as possible short of guns, knives and broadswords.

The problem so many have with Plan A is that they don't actually do it! They allow the affair to continue at full tilt by not interfering with it in any way, Avoid conflict instead of confronting the affair, try to win their wife back by not making her mad, and not actually do the hard work of looking at themselves to see what they might have contributed that made the affair a possibility. They can't identify their wife's ENs after being here for 6 weeks, still don't realize that unless they can control their anger and stop threatening her she will NEVER want to stay married to them, and generally tell everyone who tries to help that THEY know better and that THEIR situation isn't anything like the text book typical affair that has played out on these forums for years.

Some of the trouble, I think, comes from the fact that there are really several types of affairs. Some are really little more than a ONS or some sort of fantasy that never really became an affair at all. These women are not in love with another man and really only acted selfishly for one brief moment in time. Now some might still be in contact with OM and some might even be trying to make things go further, but like a lot of men who have an affair this is more about getting something for themselves than it is about romance or love. In fact, I would bet that these women even would say that they love their husbands. These are NOT the women who say ILYBINILWY or any of that nonsense. When these "affairs" are discovered they end quickly simply by the man confronting his wife and saying "get your head out of your butt or get out." She had no intention of leaving to begin with so she ends the affair because she KNOWS she has it good where she is.

These folks recover at an astonishing rate and have all the right things in place to feel better about their marriage in only a few months.

But there is another kind of affair that is even more common that all the rest. This is the affair where the woman has fallen hopelessly in love with another man. She in fact wants to leave her husband for OM and if her husband were to suggest that she end the affair or move out, he'd get run over if he got between her and the door. She has already left the marriage and now the man is left with the choice of either trying to get her back from OM or letting her go. Those who let her go have to be strong and confident. Those who decide to try to win her back must be more confident and even stronger.

You see, Plan A is not about letting her actions continue, it is about stuffing your own gut instinct to load the Glock and solve this once and for all. It is about overcoming your own desire for revenge and at the same time shutting off your own ENs to focus on the goal of saving the marriage. It isn't about making what she did right and the way you feel wrong but about wanting to be married more than to be right.

You see, if I'm asking my wife to give up her new love in honor of her commitment to me, how committed to remaining married to her should I be?

There is also another problem here as I see it. The idea that I can MAKE my wife stop her affair is ludicrous at best. There is nothing I can do to make her stop seeing another man nor to make her love me instead of him. She has to decide that for herself.

The problem most men have is that she already has decided to leave her husband for OM by the time they wake up and understand what is happening. At that point you get to choose, try to get her back from OM or let her go. If the latter, Plan A is not for you. If the former, Plan A is the best option because, again, I cannot control anyone else, only myself.

So in Plan A I set about the task of making myself a better man than OM. I do better at meeting her ENs than he does. I stop Love Busters because THAT is probably how her Love Bank got depleted in the first place. I'm actually at a disadvantage in this endeavor since OM does not have to deal with reality and a daily life together with kids up till 3 puking in the bathroom, or better still, the bed between us where they crawled when they felt sick and sought comfort. He doesn't have to climb over the pile of dirty clothes on the floor in order to reach the dryer and find a shirt to put on. He doesn't have to wash dishes before making breakfast because they piled up all day while he was at work and she fantasized about her secret lover.

So all of this stuff has to be stuffed down for now. The desire to kill him, her or both. The passing thought that maybe just killing yourself would be better and easier. The feeling you want to puke every time you think about the situation and the desire to punch her square in the face every time you look at her.

Then, after reaching a point where you know you will at least live through it all, you have to study her ENs and figure out which ones she needs met in what ways and at the same time try to figure out which ones she will LET you meet right now. Then you look inside yourself and see what you are/were doing that would drain her love bank and make changes to yourself, many long overdue, some quite difficult, like exercising more, watching what you eat, stopping the cycle of smoking a cigarette and washing it down with a beer...You stop hanging with your buds after work and go home to her so that you can make sure she isn't running out to see OM after the kids get home from school and if she does, at least you'll be there for them...

And somewhere along the way you realize that if you had run home from work instead of hanging with your buds, given up smoking when she asked you to 15 years ago, actually helped work on the pile of laundry, washed a few dishes at times and made an effort to understand and meet her ENs and stopped blowing up at things like the coffee not being done at 6:22 when you expected it and quit telling her she's a fool for wanting to go back to school at her age...

If at any time in the past 10 years you had done even 50% of that stuff, you wouldn't be in this mess right now...

The point I am making is that Plan A is not just a way to stop an affair, it is how a marriage should be from the very beginning. It shows the extraordinary care that Dr Harley points out is the reason we get married to begin with. Plan A is what you should do if you want to stay married. It's what you need to do if you want a good marriage. It's what you do if you want your wife to be head over heels in love with you and only you for the rest of her life...

BUT when there is an affair there is another thing that needs to be addressed; that is, the affair itself must be made less viable. Since affairs thrive on secrecy, exposure removes the first piece of the foundation. Meeting her ENs and avoiding Love Busters removes a couple more, since now she can get her ENs met and have a full Love Bank with you and doesn't need to get it from OM. If she is using family money to fuel the affair in any way, cutting her off from the source makes the affair even harder work to maintain. Letting the kids know that Mom is acting like a 12 year old makes it difficult for her to reprimand the kids because they know her hypocrisy. Planning for the whole family to go to her parents house for the weekend removes her from OM's presence and allows a bit of your effort to break through. Leaving her a note thanking her for doing your work jeans before she went to bed removes her argument that you never notice anything she does for you....

Every little tiny piece, most of which you would do if you wanted to show her you loved her even if she wasn't having an affair, all of these add up to making yourself and being married to you look better and OM look less like a viable option to her wayward brain.

And when she cones out of the fog and realizes what she has done, which will happen in over 99% of the cases, it will not be your screaming at her and calling her a sl^t, a b*tch or a ho that will make her want to be with you. It won't be your throwing her clothes into the middle of the street in the middle of the night that will bring her back to you remorseful and sorry for what she did to you. It won't be beating your chest and roaring that will conquer her heart. It will be what you did to show her exactly how much you love her that will win her in the end.

And the bottom line is that you have to decide. Do you want what you think is right or do you want to be married to this woman, the mother of your children? Do you want to feel strong, masculine and lonely or would you rather feel strong, manly and satisfied? Because those are the options. You can either fight for her or not.

In the animal world it is most often a big show that wins the female to the nest or lures her into mating. In rare cases an actual fight between rivals takes place, but most often it is the more flamboyant, the flashier, more colorful suitor that wins her. You don't have to kill your rivals to succeed at mating. And if you consider how puny it would make you feel if the only way you could keep your wife faithful was by killing off every other man...only to find out she really wouldn't stay with you if you were the last man on Earth...

So, what specifically, not just "I feel like" or "I think there is something about" type of stuff, but what about Plan A seems to be less manly, weaker, letting her run all over you?

And remember that I'm not talking here about whining about how she is boinking OM while I complain about it but refuse to expose the affair. And it's not complaining about her not respecting me while I cry and beg and plead with her to please stop and I promise I will do X, Y and Z. That is NOT Plan A. That is Plan WIMP. That is Plan DOORMAT.

One more point and I'll shut up...

Plan A only gets the affair to stop and brings the marriage to the recovery phase about 15% of the time. In the rest of the cases Plan B is begun. And then the really strong and courageous ones emerge because in Plan B you just let the affair burn out and provide a path to reconciliation for the WS to follow home. It means NOT dating others to get your own ENs met, NOT having someone to help with the housework and NOT getting sucked into the drama that is the affair and it's ramifications no matter what the WS does or says. Plan B is NOT Plan FU or the beginning of Plan D but simply Plan "how long can I wait and still have love left when the affair ends."

And don't think Plan A means Plan non confrontational, because that ain't it at all. That's the old Plan CA again...

To be honest, I knew I was on the right track if she was screaming at me about how I was interfering with her life...That is how I gauged my progress. If she was unhappy that I did something it meant that I was standing between her and OM in some way. She had already checked out of our relationship; anything I did in the way of not making her feel loved was a non issue. It was when I showed her what I was made of and showed her how much she would be losing that she really got mad at me. It was when I got in the way of the fantasy and popped its bubble...

Mark

Edited to add: As far as the WS losing respect for the BS because of Plan A...

Which do you think would lead to more respect?
1) Fighting for your marriage by changing what you have control over (yourself) and making yourself a better person and marriage partner...
or
2) Screaming, shouting, making threats, calling her names, telling her she's worthless and you don't need her...

Which do you think women respect more?
1) A man who can express his feelings, support her when she needs it most and is willing to set aside what he wants and even needs for his family...
2) Tossing her out in the middle of the night because she got a text message from OM after you told her that you demand she stop having contact with him...

Which person do you think is respected more?
1) The guy who died trying to save his family...
2) The guy who shot his wife when he found her in bed with another man...

I really do see it as clearly as that and maybe that's why I am having so much trouble with others not seeing it. I can either fight FOR my wife against the affair or I can fight AGAINST my wife for my own self esteem. I guess it depends on where I get my sense of self worth, from my pride or from my accomplishments...

You know what? I just realized that there seems to be a correlation between acceptance of Plan A and assigning blame.

Plan A in NO way accepts the blame for the affair. It isn't saying I did this wrong, it says, you did this and I am willing to fight for you anyway and love you anyway.

Plan A isn't saying, "please forgive me for being a lousy husband." It is saying, "I will forgive you if you stop this insanity." But it says it with ACTIONS since words don't mean much to a wayward mind.

Mark

That's all part of Plan A.

Mrs. W I am smart enough to realize a crush for what it is. Just that.... a crush. I do not act upon them and I am not going to jeopardize my marriage over a crush. It's more or less admiration. I do have boundaries and will not cross them.

BK,
It is true that I am sounding off and haven't had to face it yet.I have also said that I haven't crossed that bridge yet.
So if you want to stab at me go ahead, but it's not necessary.

If I am cheated on I promise I will come back here and say what happens.

Mark, makes sense. But, in the throes of an affair, a WW will not discuss her EN's. She is to busy demonizing the BH.
The examples of smoking, not exercising and leaving all the work at home to the wife are not applicable in many situations. In many cases the BH is a good guy , helping out and doing everything he can. But, there seems to be an expectation that the Bh, with the demands of work and kid rearing etc,can compete with the fantasy life that the OM can give. I work my [censored] off. I help around the house and with the kids. I am nice to my spouse. But, I can not compete with the excitement of nights out at the bar or whatever that the OM provides. I have to drag my [censored] to work the next day. I talk about feelngs and am open to hearing my wife's opinion and needs. But, apparently, I am dull and boring.

So then, your answer is "NO" and you have not told your wife about these "crushes", is that correct? Even about the ones where you say that the women were interested in YOU...Which, HOW did you know they were interested? What did those conversations sound like shaken?

Shaken, do you realize that most every person that became a WS thought they had boundaries that they wouldn't cross too? Do you understand that most of us were famous for saying "I would NEVER cheat"? (Believing that way gives a very false sense of security, btw) And just as you believe that you wouldn't cheat with ever fiber of your being, so did they...I'm pretty sure most WSs did not think, "Someday I will commit adultery!".

Your wife most certainly should KNOW about those "crushes" shaken...Otherwise, your marriage is NOT affair proof...Do you realize what great risks you are taking with your marriage by keeping your wife in the dark?

Radical honesty shaken, that is one way that you keep your marriage protected, you do that as a TEAM with your wife...Do you understand that if you do tell your wife about these "crushes" that it HELPS you both? Do you understand that by doing that, it places both of you on the same team and that she would more likely feel compelled to keep you in the loop should she ever develop a "crush" herself? I pray that you will listen to what I am telling you here and apply these MB concepts to your marriage...

No one here wants to see your marriage suffer the affects of an affair, and there are things you can do to help insure that it doesn't happen...I hope you are willing to do them...You must have a PLAN shaken...A huge part of that plan, is RADICAL HONESTY with your wife...

Mrs. W

Ok since I didn't say yes I have , you assume I say no. Mrs W.
I have told my wife about women that hit on me and that yes I found them attractive, because that was her next question. I am not about to lose my job over a crush. Getting involved with a co worker means losing my job and I love my job. I have been lurking here for a while and I am aware of red flags.

I know they are interested in me because they have made comments. I work out a lot and I am muscular. So some of them comment about that, I say yep, my wife likes it too. I am a PC Technician and some are always trying to get me to come by and fix their computer at their house. I am not opening up any doors to cheat on my wife.


They aren't really conversations, just statements and the way they say hello. It's not Hi Shaken, It's HIIIIIIIIII SHAAKENN!
flirtatiously. I wave and keep movin.

So just to clarify, I have been here long enough to watch for red flags and not get caught up in some mess that could hurt my wife and marriage. I respect my wife enough not to do that to her.
Reading all the responses here from betrayed spouses gives me enough fuel not to do it.

What you think you'd do if your wife cheated is irrelevant. You really don't know for sure until faced with it.

However, since your wife isn't here and you are the only thing we can really help you and your marriage with is giving you the tools and information to assist YOU with not becoming wayward yourself. All things being equal...YOU are just as likely as your wife to have an affair so let's work on you while you are here.

You say "I do have boundaries and will not cross them".

What does that mean to you? [hint: it involves a heck of a lot more than just not having sex with someone and workplace crushes are already steppin' over appropriate boundaries for a married man]

How do you make sure you don't cross them? [hint: having flirtatious conversations and allowing a workplace crush to meet your need for admiration...IN RETURN, is not protecting yourself from the temptation to "accidentally" cross your stated boundary. Does your company socialize without spouses? What about access to alcohol at such events...you don't drink AND flirt with your "crushes", do you?

WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? [hint: you and your wife NEED to discuss this as infidelity is the MOST COMMON reason for divorce and to protect your marriage you need to communicate a plan TOGETHER...to build intimacy AND protect your marriage from BOTH of your human fraility.]

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Steve Harley said this to me himself that whenever discussing with a married man, in real life or herein, about what they would or wouldn't do in an affair situation, the best response is to ask "What's your plan?" because the world is FULL of well-intentioned people; however, human nature can and does often prevail where a well considered and thoughtful PLAN of PROTECTION could have avoided so much. I've had infidelity in my life and don't think I'm likely at all to have to endure it again....NOT because we are soooo great, but rather, my wife and I are both vested and active in creating and maintaining a marriage of extraordinary care.

p.p.s. - Mark nailed the "self-respect" issue earlier. My self-respect was never and isn't today wrapped up in what my wife does or doesn't do. Her adultery in 2005 didn't make me bad, weak or less of a man. As a man...I define my masculinity. I did Plan A in spite of my wife's ongoing affair such that IF the marriage did end, at least, I was the best husband, father and individual I could be after D-day....God would decide where the chips fell from there.

Thank you for the advice Mr and Mrs W,

I have already distanced myself from the admirations (crushes) Those are past tense, I am not currently engaging in those crushes.

I appreciate the time you have taken to give me sound advice. I will follow it and thanks for caring.

I found the quote from Dr. Harley I was looking for earlier:



Shaken...I wish you success in creating a marriage of extra-ordinary care. My marriage had to endure infidelity before we achieved it together. It doesn't have to work that way. We even went to seminars about marriage pre-affair and had the tools to prevent this; but ignored it as we both thought "we wouldn't cross that boundary". I implore you to WORK with your wife seriously on THIS issue. It is the NUMBER ONE reason for divorce. Address it openly and honestly NOW as there is probably a 50+% chance it will effect one (and thus both) of you are some point in time. Other than by luck, it can be stopped. It is NOT stopped by statements of "I won't do it". Only meeting each others needs and implementing a plan can truly stop it.

Mr. Wondering

I don't have time to read all the responses and am only commenting on the thread title but, having suffered it, Plan A makes the BS look like Iron Man - to everyone but the BS him/herself. Wimp? Not if you've lived it. I think some FWSs might agree. Mine does.

Zelmo,

No husband can ever be absolutely perfect. There is always something missing from a marriage. In the cases where it isn't much that is missing, there is still something a wayward can latch onto to justify an affair.

I don't suggest that you ask a wayward spouse what his or her ENs are, I would say to figure them out. There are ways to do this without having someone who is set on destruction of the marriage stop and fill out a questionnaire.

If you wife wants to go out, is there some reason you can't go out a night or two per week? Even the garbage goes out once per week.

I would also tell you to stop and think about this. Did your wife go out and party till all hours for your entire marriage? Did she do this when you were dating? Is this her normal way of living? If not, it is the affair that is driving her lifestyle, NOT the other way around. She goes out to be with OM, not runs into OM when she goes out. What OM gives her is his time, his undivided attention. He probably also strokes her ego in ways that make her melt inside. He flatters her, teases her, drops inuendo and suggestive comments, makes her feel worshiped and like a queen. I'd bet the same kinds of things you did for her back in the day before you became old married folk.

Plan A opportunity...what did you do before you were married that attracted your wife to you and gave her reason to be your wife? Do those SAME things again.

My wife had friends that told her she was NUTS for even considering an affair because I'm one of those guys that does his own laundry, often does hers as well, does the majority of the cooking, a good share of the housework, gave her foot rubs, back rubs and bought her gifts etc. She still found "reason" for an affair. I wasn't supportive enough of her goals (the ones I never knew existed and seemed to vanish like smoke once OM was gone) or spent enough time with her or whatever the complaint du jour was at the time.

But this has nothing at all to do with whether or not Plan A is viable or if it makes a man appear to be weak. Many men would do well to just figure out how to do Plan A and apply it to their situation instead of wasting time explaining why it doesn't apply to their situation.

It all really does come down to this...

Do you want to be macho/right/rational/logical (pick almost any adjective)?

Or MARRIED?

Edited to add: I do realize the seeming futility of trying to compete with a fantasy. That really is what an affair is. I already addressed that part I think. No one who has to live a real married life can hope to overshadow a fantasy man who never leaves his socks beside the hamper instead of inside it, never sleeps through the kids crying in the middle of the night while she gets up to take care of them, steps over the mess made by the puppy instead of getting a paper towel and cleaning it up. OM doesn't have to deal with any of that stuff because that is real life and that isn't where OM lives in a WW's fantasy. But the more fantastic and fanciful the affair, the more the WW KNOWS it is a fnatasy and not real life.



Mark