Thanks Mel and Cat

I agree that PB has had its effects. I ended our conversation with a reminder that I do not wish to communicate with her until I can verify her A has ended.

All that can be done.

Why Kick, My prayers are stepped up for you and G-ds will in your life.

You are getting the best answer to the tough sitch. Step up your prayers and seek G-ds word.

Mel sure does know her stuff and grab some popcorn. With any luck, the show is about to start and the end won't take long.

Be strong, be dark and be faithful to G-d.

Mel and others please read and advise.

Timeline:

Thurs 1-15: WW pleads that we need to talk. We talked and she indicated that she was done with OM. I reinterated conditions for R and she agreed and wants to "try".

Fiday: 1-16: Discovered what I felt like was the beginnings of an EA by snooping in WW email. Confronted with emails, she denied, so I asked her to call. She did and told this gentleman that her husband discovered what was felt as inapproiate emails and asked he never to contact her again. I followed up later and there will be no further contact. Turns out to be our insurance salesman...trust me, he will not ever speak to her again.
During all this, she indicated that she was trying to figure out how and when to end the A. After much back and forth, I strongly explained that I was walking away and that our M is dead until she decides.

So....she called late Friday and asked if she could bring all of "her" stuff back home and place it in the garage. This is all the items she took from our home in the beginning. She had indicated that she ended the A and HAD to get her stuff. Most of it was in a shared storage unit and DS and I cleaned out storage while she went to the apt to get other items.
Around 1am she returned to my home and we talked again and she indicated that she was willing to abide by the process set in place to insure R.

Sat 1-17: She called early and stated that OM called and was pissed about the storage unit and wanted her to come get the rest of her S**t from his apt.
So...I called MIL and asked her to help...WW refused help and told her mother this was her mess and she needed to fix it. MIL did not want to leave but did. My WW and OM spent most of the day packing and HE helped her bring all the stuff and place it all in my garage!!
Saturday evening: WW demeanor had changed...she seemed to be very emotionally distraught.

Sun 1-18: WW and I spoke on the phone and she was again very distant. She says she is very confused and not sure if any decision she makes is right. We went over all of the same stuff again and she would not and could not commit to R now because of her confusion.
I indicated to her that I was going to continue (or re-start) PB and she pleaded with me not to leave her again. After some time she said that she needed to take it one day at time and sort out all emotions. She says that she wants to try to R, but is confused and can only commit to "trying".

Now to add to the mess....she moved in with her grandmother and has continued to live there. Her GM is very ill and WW feels that she is now her responsibility. We agreed that she could continue to help care for GM, but on the nights that DS is with me, she should be also. On the nights she needs to stay with her GM, we would all stay there.

Mel, you said the other day, as others did, that WW is not ready to begin R. I was not able to give you all the info. I had done a good job with PB and I felt that she was beginning to crumble. She has ended her A, moved stuff back home, but yet is an emotional mess. I have never seen her this distraught.
I just am at a loss as to what, if anything, that I should or could be doing at this time. I realize that she is VERY fogged out at this time. Do I just show up at GM house? Do I ask her to come home when DS comes over? Do I just let her be so she can sort out her emotions? I have not slept all night and I swear I cannot anwer any of these questions.

Please advise if you have any thing that may help us. I trully feel that we are close, but yet so far. I have not done all this with perfection, but God knows I have tried and did the best I could. I dont want to sc**w up now!!

Thanks

WW called last night to tell me the items we placed in my garage are gone, agian.

She has decided that she was coming home for the wrong reasons.

Back to OM.

Thanks to everyone here and all your support. I will forever be greatful for those who helped me through this time in my life. I am a better person for it.

Thanks

You can re-send the Plan B letter and go dark, or you can file for D.

Many affairs have false recoveries before the wayward is really ready to end the affair (NC for life!) and commit to working on the M.

I don't know what conditions you had set on her being able to return to the marital home, but you may want to review them and set the bar a bit higher.

Turtle, thanks. To answer the question, I did set the bar high to begin with. I followed most advice here when I drafted PBL with conditions. She agreed with all of them last Friday. (well, not really as it seems) She knows what it takes but told me that she never believes she can forgive herself and that I could never forgive her.

I think what hurts the most is she says that DS12 is her number one priority in her life. I only said that if that were true then you would not have done what you did or are doing now. His life is too precious to ruin and he really is not a priority at all. She of course did not believe any of that.

She took a job starting yesterday and for two years has watched our only granddaughter. DD called last night all distraught because WW just called to tell her she cant watch our grand child. So, I added to the trauma by telling her the end result of our weekend. DD is seething with hatred and anger at WW. I have tried to encourage the children not to hate her for what she is doing to our family.

Again, thanks for everyone that has helped and encouraged me. I need to digest these emotions again over the next few days. Today, I dont feel I belong here anymore because this is designed to give help for marital recovery.

I was never in Plan B so I can't speak from personal experience, but from what I read here it is quite normal to have false attempts at recovery. Consider this a setback, rather than a final determining factor -- unless you're done and wish to divorce. If you still have hopes for recovering your marriage then truly this is just a setback and all you need to is go very dark again.

I read a brilliant suggestion here, and I wish to goodness I could remember who posted it so I could give them credit... but they suggested that when a wayward says they want to return home and that they're willing to meet the conditions of the Plan B letter (NC for life, counseling, AA meetings, whatever) that you should ask them:
How do you plan to ensure the conditions of the Plan B letter are met?

Then sit back and wait for their response. If they say "I just won't contact OP" then tell them that's not good enough, that their willpower failed in the past and you cannot trust that it won't fail in the future. Tell them not to contact you until they have a plan in place for protecting the marriage and earning back your trust. You might suggest some things like key loggers, GPS tracking devices, polygraph, etc. but leave the planning and legwork up to them. When they're really ready to come home, they'll have a plan and they'll have taken action. They'll know what keylogger is appropriate, they'll have found a counselor or two that they like, etc. When you see actions that support the words, you have a better chance of the wayward being sincere.

Make her earn her way back into the home.


Nonsense. This place is for YOUR recovery, whether or not you remain married.

Thanks Turtle!!

I have walked this path for a short time now. I have grown so much only because I surrendered my WW to God.

I am weary....sometimes our posts do not contain the raw emotions that occur through this all. I know that I have been beaten with 2X4's for not being more aggressive or taking action soon enough. However, in MY HEART I know that I've given this sitch the best chance for R.

I have read and researched and Mel is the one that has beat into me and others that A's DO end. This one that my WW is having is dead as hell. The reason she gave for leaving OM is that he was "smothering" her. Well, guess what? He may treat her like a queen again for a short time...but remember, he already said around Christmas that he thought she was coming back to her H....so the A continues...but what kind of future will that be for either one of them? (no I dont give a crap about his future or feelings)

Bottom line....I have made great strides in recovering me. My relationship with God and my children has NEVER been better!!
Saying all that, I looked into her eyes and KNOW she wants to come home....she just doesn't have the will power to do so at this time.

So, I wait!

Does she know that there are other marriages out there that HAVE recovered from situations as bad as or worse than yours?

PM...I dont think that she has thought any of this through yet. In her fogged out mind right now, she does not have any concept of right from wrong. Wow! after writing this sentence....guess that says it all!

Well, you can't educate a WS... they're missing a vital component... ears to hear. But I would suggest if you get the opportunity again, like you had this past weekend, you might mention that fact to her.

But for the time being, I would go back to Plan B... total darkness. The A is crumbling... you need to protect your love. This wishy-washy, moving-in-and-out stuff, with no TRUE plan for recovery is going to take a toll on you.

Go dark, dark, dark and sit back and watch the A implode.

Thnaks PM

Well after a long phone conversation (my alarm was going off at home and she left a message that it was an emergency) last night with WW where she explained to me what she is entitled to and all the reasons she is not coming home. We had a LB party. The LB's were flowing freely and I didn't regret one word I said.

That being said....if I return to the "bat cave", with all this trauma and mean spirited conversations (way more from her...she is feeling the loss of support from me and wanted to straighten me out on that), am I wasting my time?

I read alot about WS fog, but I know that as a BS, I too am foggy. Right now it seems that actions and words that have occured in the last couple of days.....to me...seem to have taken any hope for R over the abyss!

It seems to me that she craves your support. Therefore, the ONLY way you can get her back is to withhold that support while she wavers.

You can reiterate the door is open when she's ready to abide by PBL, but until then, go dark!

Oh, and let the kids know her status.

Cat thanks,

I know this is going to sound incredibley stupid, but I know she craves me and my support. She wants to come home, but has now given every fogged out excuse possible.

Now as far as the kids go...she got to our oldest son yesterday and I finally reached him this morning. He is DONE with this crap and simply will not talk about it. The tangle of lies continues. All the children know what has happened and they all realzie that WW and her A continue. I swear their love banks are being drained by her as well.

Someone please help me make since of this.....

I know how to be in PB and I am firmly BACK there again.
However, my WW has been a great mom to my DD for the last 18 years. Last night was DD 23rd birthday and we had planned to all go to dinner. We do this every year with all the kids. There are ususlly 20 or so people there.

I knew that it would be tough for me to face WW after the events over the last few days, but I knew that I could for my DD.

There were 20 or so people and we all had a good time.

WW, our oldest son and his wife...simply did not come.

I talked to our oldest son yesterday and as I have already posted he just cant and wont deal with this anymore....

I feel so helpless and feel the life and soul of our family being torn apart. How in the world can she be so uncaring. DD didn't show it....but cried on her BD to me later in the evening. What the he**!!!

I can do a good PB again but if all the children are being hurt and now our family is being divided along the bloodlines....I just cant go on like this and sit back and watch MORE destruction.

Someone please tell me this is normal for WS's.....please

KICK

I haven't been around your thread too much, but goodness dude. You have a lot of drama going on. Isn't it amazing how getting around the INSANE actions of the WW create drama in your life and more and more of it.

My H was a completely devoted husband and father. He was really the mainstay in our family, he was the one at home most nights, and he was the everyday dad playing with the kids.

It's been one years since yesterday that he hasn't seen or had a conversation with my OS. He hasn't had any real contact with my YS at all. My older daughter he has NOTHING conversations about his problems, his snow chains.

WH didn't even attend my OS high school graduation.

As difficult as this is, STAY OUT of the children's relationship with their mom. It's THEIRS. You continue to be the loving father to those that you can, stop talking about what you are trying to do, let them see your actions, quietly fight for your family and leave the results in G-ds hands.

He is hurting over this destruction WAY MORE than anyone else in your family his.

Don't rob your children of walking through this journey, because as I was taught, G-d doesn't have grandchildren. They have a journey in all this and we have to allow G-d to do his work and turn it into good.

OH MY G-D, I KNOW how HARD this IS. But I have completely stayed out of their relationship with their dad. I have encouraged them to see their dad as a sick human being and we are family and love each other no matter what. But guess what, they aren't buying it. WH has single handedly destroyed his relationship with each and every one and by staying out of it, loving and encouraging when I can.

IT"S NOT MY MESS TO CLEAN UP.

These are the consequences of our CHOICES and your WW is making a bunch of them. She will have to clean this up. You can't control it.

It hurts because you see what's happening, and you see the pain and their walls going up. But STAY OUT OF IT....

Just keep being a man of G-d, asking G-d for the next indicated step, and learning what lessons it is you are supposed to be learning.

KICK Your children, your W needs you to LEAD this family by letting G-d lead it first.

Queenie,
THANK YOU!!

"Jesus wept". Sometimes we are allowed to weap also. God knows I've done enough for us all.

I love my children and HATE to see them hurt. Yes, I have tried to help them comprehend all this and now realize that I made another mistake in doing so.

Today, I understand that when you claim that you surrender something to God and THEN you STILL try to "fix it"....God allows you to take it from Him, and will allow you to again deal with it in your own way. Well guess what....at some point God wants you to comprehend what total surrender is.

When everyone tells us to work on us first and heal ourselves, what that means to me is that unless you find the inner peace to TOTALLY SURRENDER, you will find as I just have, that unless God is controlling me and the issues, it will not do any good for me to "try". I CANNOT DO IT....GOD MUST BE ALLOWED TO HANDLE YOUR LIFE AND YOUR SITUATIONS!!

Now I know why "Jesus Wept".

Since it seems to me that most of you have given up giving me advice on my M, let me appeal to what is dear to all of us and beg for some much needed advise.

DS12 is a very smart young man. He has always tested very high on FCAT tests and thus places him in advanced classes. The first grading period he did OK.

Well report cards came out Friday. On Saturday I asked him if he has his report card and how did he do. "They didn't give them out yet" Well, after we got past the lying part, I discovered that he has failed 4 of the six classes.

We discussed this and he admits that he has given up.

So, on Monday I called the principal and have a conference set for Wednesday morning to map out a plan to get him back on track.

He has not shown his report card to his Mom and I explained that he cannot continue to lie and hide the truth. He simply stated that "Mom will not ask to see it and until she does, I'm not talking to her about it."

Today is day 5 and she has not asked. How in the world can a Mother who last week declared that DS12 is her number one priority, be so uncaring?

He and I agreed that we will spend time together every night he is with me doing and reviewing homework. He seems to be glad that Dad is willing to help.

I accept the fact that this is my fault also, but EVERY night, I always ask and am told that homework is done. This is a learning process for me as well, and I won't make that mistake again. He will be held accountable for homework.

I will meet with the teachers, map out a plan, and start on my own to help my son.

I know that I have to share this with my WW, but I have zero confidence that she will bear the task.

Advice? Yes, my A is fully aware of the situation.

Kick, neither you nor your son can MAKE her do anything... especially be a good mom. I'm not sure what you're asking since you've already informed your attorney.

If I were you, I would just continue to document these types of things and then letitgo and be the best parent you can be. She's hanging herself with her children. She may not see the effects NOW... but she WILL a little later in life. She will REGRET the choices she's made (if she has any decency) but it will be too late. Her kids may forgive her, but their relationship with her will forever be changed.

I feel really bad for your DS12. He sees it for what it is. It is your job to show him he has one parent who HONESTLY and TRULY cares. He needs to know that not ALL women/moms are this way because I can see this coloring his relationships with women as an adult.

Kick and Kick's DS12

Sorry if I haven't responded lately; I wasn't thinking you were waiting on answers for anything.

For your son, I had the same problem with D18 - never fessed up about daily activities. So what I ended up doing is, every night or two, we would sit down with her bookbag and go through it. We would organize the papers, I'd get to see the grades and unfinished homework, and then we'd get on top of everything. And personally, I think kids LOVE for their parents to get involved in their schoolwork. Once he knows you aren't doing it to have an excuse to chew him out.