QT, I don't think I realized that your WH was saying some of the same things! I try to read a lot of posts, but sometimes I don't fully absorb it!
Anyway, my WH started the altering marital history in the summer, I think right after he "tried" to stay away from her and when he couldn't (and didn't tell me) that's when it all got stepped up until at one point, he has never been in love with me! He back-peddled on that one, but still all those hurtful things kept coming and I had no idea what was going on! I tried to argue, cry, shake my head in disbelief, but could not make sense of it.
I am doing better in plan b and yesterday was a testament to that. As soon as too much info got to me and I felt unprotected by my IM, I just went downhill. It was wonderful that I could go home for the day and nap with baby and pug. I highly reccommend that kind of medicine (I need an emoticon here for a pug-hug!)
RHW, your steady reminders that what you hear from a fogged up WH is always going to be fog are so helpful! And it has been wonderful to see that I can survive this and to know that if he doesn't get healthy, I don't want him in my life anyway. Feels so much better to be in charge of my life, because the way I was letting him run it before sucked!
BTW, I am pretty awesome and his life will be so less awesome without me!
Thanks all, I will post more later! Dancing Machine is my new IM -- we'll see how he responds to a Texan taking on his bullying!
BF439

Me: WS

So, its quiet since I switched IM's to a MB poster (thanks again, DM!), except for the evening call from their dad. I just try to go into other rooms and not hear it. I just hate the "normal" tone of their conversation when everything still feels so surreal to me.
Does this feeling ever fade? I mean to have a person in your life everyday, in such intimate ways (not just sexually, just THERE) and to have them gone. Poof, they're gone -- oh, but wait, they aren't gone!
They have just been replaced by a nearly but not quite identical evil version of themselves! Before the sound of his voice or the sound of his footsteps made me happy. Now if I hear either of those, I feel sick.
It makes me appreciate Plan B for the space, but makes me question holding any hope for R. Why would I ever want to R with someone who has hurt me so much? Someone who doesn't even grasp how he has scarred me?
Thoughts?
BF439

BF, I understand this so well as I'm totally in the same place but I think you need to put those thoughts away for the moment. Right now it's not a choice so it's not going to help to mull over them. If he comes back deeply repentant and willing to give you everything you ask for and more besides in order to earn your forgiveness, then maybe you will find it in your heart to forgive. In fact I think it's highly likely that you will but he isn't there yet so it's not going to help to think about it.

As for the times when you feel lonely when the children go to him, could you do something nice for yourself that you can't do when they are there so that those times are not so hard on you?

PS. I'm seriously thinking of getting a puppy for my DD11 as she has begged me for years and would really love one although I'm hesitant to take on even more responsibility.

Tully, your comments mean so much to me, because I know you are where I am in a lot of ways -- it can be easier for posters who are removed from some of the intensity of the affair (it has not even be 6 months since D-day) to offer that kind of reflection. To know that you are thinking about how WS needs to be truly repentent before we even think of forgiveness is helpful, because I know you probably think daily about him coming to his senses and coming "home."

I highly reccommend a puppy if possible! Be careful, though, we adopted the world's worst dog last year and I thought our aged, wonderful dog who had been present even for our children's births was going to commit suicide! She had to be returned as we were not equipped to deal with her needs, but now we have a pug puppy, the children are in heaven, our older dog doesn't hate us and, most importantly, I can manage her!
Pug love is great love!
BF439

bf,

tully has given you some good perspective. I've been following her thread for quite some time and have been awed by her strength too. You and she are both incredible women. But surely you're aware of some of the insightful things you've already posted yourself. Go back and read some of your own posts. You'll see.

No matter where any of us happens to be on this path, we all have times of pain and despair, and wonderful moments of lucidity and wholeness too.

This is a club none of us wanted to join, but since we're all here, what a blessing that we can support and be supported.

I think you and tully are doing all the right things. I believe you will both reap the rewards.

(((bf)))

RHW

Ok, here's my evening update:
Tonight was WH's night with the kids. DD4 did not want to go, so I sent her out to talk to her dad (who was unloading DS11's dresser into the garage), so she stayed and, of course, DD12 doesn't go with him at all anymore, so only DS11 went with dad tonight. I'm starting to worry about DS11 in this situation, but I can't do much more than love him, talk to him and encourage him to express himself.

WH did not try to collect the old dresser so either DS11 told him or he got the message from the new awesome IM (thanks, Charlotte!)
He included me on an email (cc'd) re: some financial stuff. It went to my spambox, so I quickly read it, since it was a cc (nothing personal in it) and I deleted it.
Tomorrow I am taking a personal day to go start (and hopefully finish :)) Christmas shopping. I might get a pedi, too!!
I'm getting more and more used to this life and trying to focus on building my strength. Here's some of what I've done these three weeks: put the tree up on my own; put up Christmas lights, fixed the computer (internet connection); painted my bedroom and took care of my kids and looked awesome doing it!!!
So, I joke, some! There are lots of days where I cry and take the day off for what we call the "resentment flu." But, still, I am surprised since I'm in Plan B how much I can do.

I also brought Daisy the pug to work all afternoon and the kids loved it! Today was a good day for reminding myself that I have a lot to offer professionally and how many kids count on me at work. I am so much more than a BS!!
Sooo, that's where I am today. Tomorrow I may be somewhere different (but hopefully with great toenails!), but for tonight I'll enjoy.
Keep posting everyone -- you have no idea (or maybe you do) how much it keeps some of us going!
BestFriend439
P.S. I know the incredible power of pug -- does anyone else have a story or two how their amazing pet has helped them or their family?!

Update: The first movement from WH in any way, shape or form...

WH's BF from college, who we have always been in touch with over the years, called tonight to say that WH would like him to be the intermediary.

I stated, as nicely as I could, that I felt the IM we had was fine and if WH was uncomfortable with sharing confidential info with a stranger then he could forward that info to me on paper and drop it at the house or in the mail. As long as it did not have fog-babble in it, I could handle factual, financial info coming from him.

This friend has been very supportive of our marriage (WH lied to him too this summer) and I felt ok sharing with him that I felt WH's request was another attempt to control the situation. Again, I think DM is doing a fine job!!!

Any thoughts about this? Nice to see that I can still set limits -- just because he requests something, I do not have to agree!
BF439

Awwwwwwww........Thank you SO much, BF!!

I'm glad to be able to help!!

Charlotte

Amazing response BF. My WH tried to change IM a number of times (over 3 days hehehe) and it was not about the IM at all. He absolutely wanted to control things, and still does.

You are still inspiring me and it's great to have your lovely stories about your pug too. We never had a dog and my parents have only had a cat since we all left home. I think the kids would love it, but I don't have fences. Maybe that needs to be a Plan B project. LOL.

I hope your toe nails look gorgeous!

Take care & big hugs to you.

here's a thread for you to read and contribute to.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2173377#Post2173377

Help other Plan Bers learn that they are worth the fidelity requirement! That they deserve respect! That they deserve protection!

And so do you!

Thanks, KaylaAndy, I'll check it out! I may have already been following it.

And may I just say re: the website being back:

BF439

Dear bestfriend,

I should just like to pop in and tell you how much I admire you, and that I'm so sorry for what you are going through.

You're getting good Plan B advice already, and I have no experience or expertise in that area, which is why I haven't posted before. However, having recently caught up with your whole thread, I see a link between us; you like running, and you appreciate the importance of pretty feet!

Well, I can't say I actually like running, but with kids, the house and a job, I find it a much more convenient way of exercising than trying to attend scheduled classes, and far more interesting than the (expensive) gym.

On bitterly cold days such as we are having in London at the moment, of course I don't want to go out, especially on early mornings. However, I have an arrangement with a friend that I cannot wimp out of, and so we go and do 4 miles in our beautiful park and feel great afterwards. Of course, you have to regularly reward your feet for that punishment by keeping them pretty!

I found that taking care of myself made a difference to my spirits during the period when the affair was in full swing and I was being gaslighted (gaslit?). I can see that this is helping you too. I suppose that at least, being in Plan B gives you more time to yourself than before. Just make sure that you don't give up the goddess treatment when H goes back home!

My best wishes to you and the children.

Thanks, Sugar! I am getting a lot of support here, which is good for me not only because I need it, but also because I tend not to naturally ask or acknowlege that I need it!
This whole experience has been humbling for me, which I think I need to pay close attention to (pride, I mean...)

Anyway, I have not run since early September. I love running and even when I take time off, I know I can come back to it and start right back (even if a lot less and a lot slower ). I also used to run because I like to cook and it helped me not get huge on my foodie diet. Of course, that was before the Infidelity diet and I'm now trying to keep weight on.
Initially, running was really hard during this because I just did not feel strong enough.
I know I will get back to it, tho, that's why I love it -- it is always waiting for you to be ready.

I might do a half in April -- WH and I trained last spring (when he wasn't screwing his OW ) but he bailed on the training. Ironically, I felt very connected to him then. I felt safe running knowing that he was there; I felt good encouraging him and loved having that time with him.

Anyway, I think for winter I'm going to ice skate more -- I want to get good at it; not just proud when I don't fall! Maybe Santa (Father Christmas, right) will bring me skates so I don't have keep renting them!

Also, thanks for posting. Every time I get a post or someone references "BF" in another post I feel cared for!
Keep running; I'll think of you and Paula Radcliff out on the streets of London and I will feel inspired!
BF439

Hi BF. I actually took up running again when WH was spending 6 nights a week out with OW. I stopped when he left the house and the weight fell off me too.

Now, I'm still home alone and the treadmill is gathering dust again. I am getting inspired again by you and might find the sneakers and get back on it. I need the treadmill because I can't find the time with a 1 and 3 year old and working full time.

I need to tone up now anyway and running is great to get the endorphins flowing and tune out thoughts of WH.

You're doing great BF. Thinking of you!

Good for you 2M2L -- having toddlers is exhausting! My first two are 15 months apart, I just remember how hard it was to keep up. That's when I started running and even though I haven't always been consistent (really until I started entering races) its been the best thing! Think about entering a 5K -- you can train for one in 6 weeks and it really ends up being only about 30-35 minutes of running and its a great goal -- especially if its a fundraiser.

General BF439 rant/question:
I asked, via IM, for WH to stop trying to schedule things with the kids individually on days that are not his for visitation. He seemed to get it, but then he was still texting DD12 for her to do something with him tonight or tomorrow (his visit days). IDKW, but that really bothered me. DD12 told him, "no" she had plans, but I am irritated that I had no clue that he asked he to go with for anything. Is this just my control issue?
I asked DD12 to let him know the next time he texts or asks for her to say IDK and ask me! I wouldn't let her go with a friend without permission -- why would I allow her to make plans with him without any knowledge? She refuses to go with him, so I must assume that she will always be with me unless she asks permission otherwise!
I told her if this continues I will take her cell (I'd get her one on my plan) and she said she'd block him if need be. I had already asked him to call kids on the house phone, anyway.
Again, entitlement! Whatever he thinks is best is fine. Doesn't really matter what anyone wants or needs!!!
This totally reinforces to me that he got the older kids phones this summer because it was part of his plan to leave and still have a relationship with them. I keep going back to this suspicion that every action, even MC, was part of his plan to move on and that the only glitch was that I did not end the marriage for him.
Anyway, thoughts about what I could do here? Do I need to do anything?
BF439

Going to read, over a great cup of coffee tomorrow, all the threads that Amazin has "bumped." They look very good!
Until then, Dancing Machine has been a great IM, but I have to say I hate talking with my husband about how we are going to split our children for the holidays. I know he has said that it will make him "happy," to end his marriage, but really, can he be happy when his wife and kids are so miserable?
Although, I'm not as miserable as I have been, but I am really missing him right now...
Regreting all those years I insisted on being a "Ms." when I really liked being his "Mrs."
BF439

You have the right to be the big, bad, mean parent.

These days, too many parents are afraid of seeming too 'mean' to their kids. But guess what? For the past 5000 years, parents were exactly that: mean. They made decisions based on what was good for the FAMILY, not the kid.

You need to be willing to be 'mean' and do what's right for the family. Remember, it is NOT your job to be your kids' friend.

As you can see, bf, the fog runs thick and much longer than most of us can stand--while we're going through it. Sounds like he's been there since at least last February, so let's hope it will start to clear over the next few months. I'm wondering how he'll take Christmas this year. As different as it will be for YOU, it will HAVE to be different for him, and we can hope that causes a blip in his current "happiness." Wonder when OW will start making demands that help shake him loose too.

Anyone care to comment on that?

I'm sure his fog did start right away as he apparently believed himself to be in love with her immediately. I asked him one time, what are the chances that the second woman you slept with in 15 years is your "soul mate" --especially because you slept with her because you were drunk at a conference? He had no answer.
Anyway, I think I will also set those limits with the phones. He needs to go through the IM, not the kids. He can call on his "off" evenings on the house phone and see them (if they'll go) during his visits.
We are going back and forth with visitation and it kills me how he wants to "think" about some of the suggestions check his calendar before he commits! Again, the assumption is that I'll be here regardless, so its really up to him when he wants the kids!
RHW, I'm not sure what contact he is having with OW, but I think they decided to stay apart until after the holidays. Why? I'm not sure... But I'm pretty sure she has pushed him to get a divorce so she does feel like such a homewrecker...

On another note, is it normal to dream about WH every night? Its mostly Plan A kind of stuff -- me trying to connect; him being cold or talking about divorce stuff. Makes me really think how traumatic this experience is for me...

BF439

So, here's a thought:
Maybe my WH is not fogged and his absolutely knows that he isn't in love with me (he certainly never expressed himself to me the way he did to OW)and is happily rebuilding his life as a single father... He seems happy enough and completely unconcerned how much he has hurt me.
DS11 called today -- he was going to stop over (been on a visit with WH since last night until tomorrow morning. I will not see him or DD4 until tomorrow after school), but they are putting up the Christmas tree at WH's house. That bothered me so much. WHy!? He's planning to have the kids celebrate Christmas with him and all the trimmings like its no big deal. I absolutely hate him right now!!!!!
I hate him; I hate her and I hate what he's done to all of us, the selfish pig!!!!
BF439