Tully,

Excellent post in response to all of the recent posts on your thread. As usual you handled yourself with confidence and grace. I'm glad you are not allowing yourself to be second-guessed. You know deep down that you have made the right choices. It's up to WH to wake up out of the fog at this point.

Sugar - thanks for the kind words. You have alot of wisdom and I for one have learned some things from your posts.

Mindshare

Thanks Mindshare, I hope he does comes out of the fog. It's 5 weeks today since I left and no sign of any fog-lifting yet. Although to be honest I'm not terribly surprised. I know he is a very stubborn man with an unfortunate tendancy to blame others when things go wrong. Well, either he has the capacity to question himself and be a bigger person than he was before or he doesn't. I have the impression that it will be all or nothing which is a consolation in that it reduces the chances of false R.

I got an email from the mediator this morning to say that WH sent her an email saying that he didn't want to talk 'through' her any more, he wants to talk directly to me (so what's new? How can a normally intelligent man be so obtuse to what is a very simple message). He is coming here this weekend and booked again the self-catering appartment I proposed to him a while back. I found out by telephoning my friend who rents it to ask if he had booked it, not because he communicated it.

Apart from that, I'm happy because I bought a new car today. It's a small cheap one with a few dents in the side but it's a lovely flashy colour and it runs! I was getting fed-up with borrowing my dad's car, I'm not a teenager any more.

Tully, you continue to inspire me!

Your strength is part of what keeps me going!

To think that half-way around the world, an Irish girl from Ohio gets inspiration from an Irish girl who left France to save her sanity! Who know WS's could make the world a little smaller! :crosseyedcrazy:

Anymore consideration for that puppy? We are in pug-love here!
BF439

Hi Tully,

You're doing an awesome job in really tough circumstances.

Stand fast and strong. If his mother has contacted you to apply pressure then you know that the ripple affects of his infidelity are far reaching and with all the time he has to reflect on his own, especially flying between France and Ireland, something will give when the time is right.

He is missing his children and if he is begging to speak with you directly, you know he is craving your attention too.

Plan B is a marathon, not a race.

Hang in there!!!

Tully, it seems he just doesn't get it yet. You are amazing. I am fascinated by your story.

It sounds to me as if the "freedom" and "relief" aspects of Plan B are kicking in. I feel quite envious, tully!

However, even though I'm tempted to hop over to Ireland for a wicked weekend driving around with you and your sisters in your Fab-Mum-mobile, I'm going to resist and talk about the horrible stuff; reconciliation.

Last week, you said you had sent an email to the Harleys. Has a session been booked yet? If not, I really wish you would follow this up and get just one counselling session with them about your H's wish to communicate. I really don't think that not responding is the right thing to do. I have been flicking through some other Plan A and B threads where the BS has counselled with Steve or Jennifer, and what strikes me is that they always adapt the MB approach to the circumstances.

For example, they advised Bestfriend on a "modified" Plan A for a short time because of her WH's attitude and her fragility. I believe that "modified' meant not going flat out to try and meets his needs because it was unlikely in itself to bring him home (Plan A seldom ends affairs on its own, anyway) and she had to guard her heart against his powerful sense of entitlement.

Somewhere (I can't remember where just now) I read that Steve has been known, rarely, to advise a BS to send love letters to the WS if Plan B has been going on a long time and there have been no recent attempts at reconciliation from WS. The assumption seemed to be that the WS might have given up and got used to living without the BS and children. The WS might have mentally moved on from the marriage, thinking that, since the BS does not wish to communicate with them, the marriage is over. In that very limited circumstance (a long Plan B with the WS no longer trying to return), the BS should make a direct move to let the WS know that the door is still open - not just with a re-sent Plan B letter but with love letters.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Steve would say anything like that to you, tully, because your marriage is nowhere near that point. However (assuming the advice about love letters is true), Steve seems to be saying that Plan B can be modified so that it does not result in the WS giving up on the marriage, one of the inherent dangers of the Plan. If the BS still wishes to save the marriage, having no communication with the WS can defeat the objective of reconciliation.

Having read a couple of current Plan B threads, I am struck by the differences between those WSs who basically respond to Plan B with an "F you" attitude, do their own Plan UpYours back to the BS, are relieved to be out of the marriage and do not say a word about wanting the BS back. Those WSs seem to me to have emotionally removed themselves from the marriage in a way that your has not. Your WS, tully, has never given you the message that he is relieved to be given his freedom and does not want the marriage back.

I know he has blamed you for the affair, not spoken about NC and shown the opposite of remorse (if such a thing is possible!). Those 3 things are, and should be barriers to your return. I am not encouraging you to be grateful that he is prepared to overlook your "failings" and go back before you lose him! However, I wonder whether it would be wrong for you both to discuss recovery, since that is what he seems to be proposing. Is the mediator issue such an important condition, really?

I don't see stated anywhere in Dr Harley's materials that communication via the mediator is an unbreakable condition if the WS wants to talk about reconciliation. Even if it is, your H wants to speak to you about your marriage, and he has communicated this wish via the mediator. I know I have not used Plan B or counselled with the Harleys, so I might be wrong to say this, but I cannot see why non-response is appropriate!

Would it be wrong (and I'm speaking to tully's whole crew of supporters now) for the mediator to send a message back saying "tully is willing to discuss restoring the marriage if you have ended the affair and have no contact whatsoever with OP. She is not interested in reconciliation if any contact, or threat of contact, remains. Is there any remaining contact between you and OP?"

If the answer comes back "yes; no contact", tully could speak to him and find out how that has been achieved. If no NC letter has been sent, she could ask that he sends one (that she approves). If he responds to that request as he did in September when this thread was started, that he would but it is a silly and unnecessary gesture, tully stays in Plan B and perhaps sends another Plan B letter saying "talk to me when you grow up". If he appears to want to do what is necessary, he sends the letter and they later discuss tully's other conditions, such as moving house (or whatever), until she is satisfied that she can move back to France.

At some point they have to be in contact, surely, so that tully's conditions can be discussed and implemented. If discussion shows that WH is still wayward, entitled, selfish, blaming and sees moving house (etc) as more of tully's unreasonableness, she withdraws from negotiation and stays in Plan B.

I don't know that Plan B can be ended without some degree of direct communication and negotiation. Talking does not means going home to a false recovery; it should mean allowing them both to hear each other and decide whether to go forward.

I know I could be very wrong here, so please understand that I am only try to find out whether you and others see what I see. I'm not telling you do do this NOW.

Steve would know what to do! Phone Steve!

Sugar, I am blue in the face from saying this. This is the message I have been passing to everyone who contacts me including the mediator. I can't see how saying it one more time to make it 1001 times will change anything.

I know if I open communication with WH he will drive me to the point of D. I suspect that either consciously or subconsciously he doesn't want to make a decision about whether to come back and commit to me or to ask for a D but I have put him in a position where he has to do one thing or the other. If he comes back and says all the horrible things he has been saying again I will lose all will to continue and will push for a D. He wants desperately to force the decision on me and the only way he can do that is to talk to me. Then he offers me crumbs and when I refuse he can then say 'I admit that I made a mistake but I tried to sort things out but she walked out because she couldn't forgive' and then it's my fault again. Sorry Sugar, I see your point but I'm holding firm.

As for the appt with Steve, I got an email from Ellie who proposed an appt on Wed last but I saw the email after the office closed and it was too late. She proposed a appt for one day next week and i have sent all the details required so i suppose she will get back to me later when the office opens. Don't worry I will remain open to a possibility to talking to him but I have a firm conviction that discussion will set us on a dead-end road towards D and would not be helpful in the current circumstances.

PS do come over for a skite in my dream machine! There's a great atmosphere here at the moment with Christmas coming.

BF, don't tempt me!!! I keep saying that we should get one for my daughter but I know that deep down I'd love one for me. I think I'll wait until after Christmas but if there's no sign of improvement, a dog it is!

You've explained things very clearly for me now, tully. I think I have been misconstruing the situation and believing that your H is not quite clear what you want.

I reassured that you are confident about your requirements and position. I'm in even greater awe of you now! You don't suffer from the crippling doubt that made me second-guess everything I did to the point that I did nothing properly or wholeheartedly.

Keep us posted about the consultation, and keep having fun!

Tully - here's a thread for you to read and contribute to.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2173377#Post2173377

Help other Plan Bers learn that they are worth the fidelity requirement! That they deserve respect! That they deserve protection!

If you wanted an imported model, Mark1952 has some puppies. :RollieEyes:

Gee tully, I know, I know you've said it til you're like the blueberried Violet in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. But unless you KEEP ON saying (and I would recommend saying it in exactly the same words...or rather through the mediator) then he can fool himself into thinking you are breaking down...

Send him back the same answer over and over every time he tries to negotiate a return where the OW has any part in your M.

Or rather, through the mediator. But he will know they are your words.

Tully,

Once again, I am awed by your strength and resolve!! I'm also so glad that you recognize within your own heart just how close you are to Plan D (LB almost in the red) and that knowledge helps you continue a Dark Plan B knowing that contact with WH at this point is extremely dangerous due to his fogginess. As we've said all along, there are no guarantees to the outcome of your Plan B but I have to say you have been as close to anybody I have seen to staying on the narrow path that Dr. Harley describes. That takes sheer guts, strength and determination. Cudos to you once again!!

That said, I also agree with SHMI. Please make sure that your WH is getting some communication from the mediator. Complete and utter silence could cause him to give up entirely. I would suggest that you ask the mediator to continue to deliver the same message to WH that you have been delivering. I would even take it a step further and instruct the mediator to say that she spoke to you directly and you have instructed her to deliver the same message. In a very subtle way this is telling WH that you are still there and are still willing to consider reconcilliation once he has met the requirements that you have laid out for him. Sooner or later you hope for the fog to lift enough for him to see that he has a path back to you and that he just needs to strap on the boots and start hiking it.

Mindshare

Wow, and I also wanted to add...keep following that gut. You are doing WELL!

I prepared this to send last night but the server was down but here it is today.

Kayla Andy, I will look at that thread. Thanks for the suggestion.
OK, I'm listening to you all and here is the message I just sent to the mediator by email asking her to pass it on to WH.
I didn't say that I love him because I'm not sure that I'm able to say that right now. The best I can do, if I am honest with myself, is that I am willing to do my very best to apply MB principles (meeting ENs and eliminating LBs etc) to try and bring back the love we once had, if he is prepared to try too. I don't know if that's enough. I fear R, especially as I would be putting myself in a very vulnerable position if I go back to France so a significant part of me would be relieved if he refuses to comply. In fact a friend said to me today that she thinks I should insist that he moves here to us but IMO it's premature to even think about this, never mind discuss it.
Also, I have an appointment with Steve on Wednesday next so I'll let you know what he has to say.

I'm glad you sent this message. I do think you should respond to mediated messages that appear to want reconciliation, since you told him that your goal during Plan B was to keep the path to reconciliation open.

I think the phrase "commitment to NC" sounds better than "promise", should he reply saying that he promises. "Commitment" sounds to me more like an ongoing course of actions, whereas "promise" sounds like words. Now that might be just me, based on my promise-breaking WH, to whom words, including his marriage vows, meant nothing at all. If my experience can be stretched to cover your situation, then you should only trust observable acts.

What do you and the crew think?

You spoke here about vulnerability. I realise that what you said earlier about the dangers of the marriage breaking down in a few years, when it would be harder to move, in fact applies now.

From reading other threads I see that, despite the BS's best efforts, sometimes there is a false recovery and Plan B has to be resumed. This is horrible when it happens. The children are told that Dad (usually) is home and that the parents are committed to the marriage, only for the BS to have to tell the children that all bets are off and Dad is moving out again. All the fears and insecurity that the children have barely recovered from are added to and worsened. False recovery is heartbreaking.

For you however, it could mean your going back to France and not being able to leave with the children again. You managed to do it this time because your move was unexpected. but your H will probably not let it happen again. You would then be stuck with all the loneliness that you so successfully avoided this time. This could happen in as little as a week!

This is a horrible thought, and I can quite see why a part of you "would be relieved if he refuses to comply".

Your friend made an excellent suggestion about his moving to you. If he has a career expertise that would make him valuable outside his current location, then moving country is a viable recovery condition. It is too soon for you to discuss this with H because he has shown no commitment to NC and rebuilding, but it is not too soon for you to think it through and decide whether it should be be on the table when he does come round.

Are the children away with him tonight?

Hi Sugar, in fact the wording of the message wasn't quite that because I wrote it in French to the mediator so that message is a quick translation. Maybe a better translation of what I actually said was 'provide me with reassurance that there will be NC...'

I have been thinking about my friend's suggestion and I am thinking that I would be prepared to compromise and live in Dublin, UK (he has a job opportunity there and my 2 sisters live there) or the US. The UK or US would be neutral territory where either of us would be unlikely to stay if the M broke up. So if we have to leave anyway then home in Ireland is as easy a place to move to as France. Just thoughts going through my head but as you say it's not an issue right now.

Yes, he does have them tonight and I felt so awful as the 4 year old is sick and spent a good part of yesterday cuddled up on my knee. I asked if she would prefer to stay with me but she wanted to go with him. I'm so glad that they have the self-catering apartment but I keep thinking about her this evening. What an awful situation! How on earth did we get here?

I discovered this evening that my brother rang him after the MIL episode on Monday and they had a difficult conversation which finished with WH hanging up on my brother but I'm still glad that my brother said that he wasn't going to put up with my MIL treating me so abominably or even WH for that matter. I was glad that a third party said something like that because WH seems to dismiss my judgement and concerns as if they were the ravings of a lunatic.

Hi Tully, You're doing great! I know it will be a very quiet evening on your own tonight and I encourage you to do something for yourself. Reading, soak in the bath, paint your toenails, finish the Chrsitmas cards or anything to keep busy. It's an awful feeling that never used to be there. It used to be a joy when our husbands took the kids for a few hours but that just isn't there anymore.

Take care of yourself and plan and do something wonderful.

Tully, I'm very sorry I didn't find out about your callout till last night.

I see you're still doing fabulously, and handling so well everything that's thrown at you. I would caution you to have one of your family members listen on the line each and every time your girls talk to their grandma.


Something very like this should be a standard response from your mediator, but without her needing to consult you or even let you know he had written wanting contact again. ( :RollieEyes: ) It really doesn't matter if he's heard it 1001 times, lol, he needs to run up against a brick wall each and every time he does this.

Neak, how wonderful to hear from you! I was just thinking that I hoped that your absense was due to lots of good stuff going on in your life in the run-up to Christmas.

I think you are right about that message. I will ask the mediator to send him that same message systematically every time he requests contact.

Thanks 2M2L, fellow-Plan Ber, I hope you are feeling strong. It's not so easy at this time of the year when all around us we are hearing messages of love, peace and reconciliation but this situation is not of our choosing.