This is my first posting. I hope I'm posting it in the right place. I'm really afraid of some of the comments I'll get back. When you read my story I want you to understand that I'm trying to take full responsibility for my actions and I'm not making light of my H's pain or frustration.

I had an affair in 1986. I had been married 2 years. I was 22, the OM was 37. It happened during a confusing time in my life, but I knew it was wrong, and I knew it was a terrible mistake. It consisted of talking, flirting and one sexual encounter. The encounter is what shocked me into breaking it off. I couldn't believe I'd let things get so out of hand. I knew I still loved my husband and wanted to stay with him. I broke it off, complete NC, and have been completely faithful ever since. I was horribly afraid of losing my H, so I never told him. I realize now how cowardly that was, and how unfair it was to him. Turns out, he always suspected, and imagined things a thousand times worse than the reality. He asked me several times over the years, and I always denied. Then in 2006, for some reason it was really bothering him, he asked again and I confessed. So at that time, even though the A happened 20 years ago, the pain and betrayal was brand new to him. He was devastated. How could his soul mate have done this to him? And it wasn't just the A, but also the 20 years of lying.

He took his anger out on me. For the first 6 months or so after D-Day he was physically, emotionally, verbally and sexually abusive. He came up with creative and cruel "punishments" for me. I took everything he dished out and felt like I deserved it. I became suicidal. We talked a lot, but our conversations were very one-sided. Him ranting and me crying. He kept asking the same questions over and over, and I tried very hard to answer, but my answers were never good enough. He was also drinking a lot during this time, and that's when a lot of the talking would happen. He'd get drunk, want to talk, it'd go on for hours, I'd get horribly upset, then he wouldn't even remember it the next day. At the time I thought I had no choice but to endure whatever he did, that it was all my fault and he had the right to be angry. Now, he says that he lost all respect for me because I took it. I should have stood up for myself. But there's no doubt in my mind that if I had said no, he would have left. He would have seen that as me not being willing to do whatever it took. (He quit drinking in May '08. This was after a particularly bad conversation in which he tried to choke me. He didn't remember it the next day, and it scared him. He hasn't had a drink sense. And yes, I'm very proud of him!)

Things kind of calmed down after a while. Then he propositioned 2 women at work. Both turned him down, but he has become good friends with one of them. He swears nothing ever happened w/ her, but I can't know that for sure. I know he still talks to her a lot, but he knows it bothers me, so he keeps it secret. But she's the reason we went to a certain chiropractor, why we've gone to certain concerts, etc.

Then in June 2007, he advertised himself on a dating website. He openly admitted he was married. He started chatting w/ one woman and met her for sex. He wasn't very good at hiding it, and I found out right away. He said it wasn't for revenge, and it wasn't because he felt he was owed a freebee. He said it was because I had stopped giving him answers to his questions. He called it an "experiment". To see how you could do something like that to someone you love. He says he didn't love me while he was cheating, and there was no way I could have loved him back in 1986. He said he planned all along to tell me about it, but in his mind he had 20 years to tell me. He said he felt cheated by getting caught so quick before he was finished. He said it was just the one time, but couldn't promise that it wouldn't happen again. Well, turns out he never broke it off, and continued to see her for the rest of the summer. In Sept 2007 I found out he was still seeing her and also chatting w/ 3 other women online. At that time he says he stopped everything, but I found out later he still emailed w/ the OW occassionally. Except for keeping it a secret for 20 years (not making light of this!) as far as cheating goes, he's done 10 times more than I did.

We started MC in April 2008. (he refused to go before that) We've gone together and separately. H said he wasn't getting anything out of it, so he stopped after 4 or 5 visits. He said there was only one session that helped, and that was when the counselor agreed w/ him on something. I'm still going. At our first session, H told our story and didn't even mention his A. When I brought it up, he said it never entered his mind and it had nothing to do w/ why we were in MC. He is very disappointed w/ MC because he thought it would be some deep analysis of my personality that might explain my actions. He never imagined that the counselors could find fault w/ him. The MC seem to be focusing on present day instead of the past. H wants the past dissected and studied.

As far as MC goes, 2 different counselors (one that counseled H in-depth) have both told me that H is very insecure. The main counselor says that H is insecure from childhood and has built a thick facade to protect himself. This facade allows him to appear as a happy-go-lucky kinda guy, and he built it up that we had a perfect marriage and when that image crumbled because of discovery of my A, H didn't know how to handle it. That's why he has reacted so badly. He also justifies all his actions and blames his bad behavior on me. He has always thought of himself as completly honest because, even as a small child, he would fess up to whatever bad thing he had done. Well, like one of the counselors pointed out....honest does not mean honorable. The main counselor says H is one of the most insecure patient he's seen in 30+ years of practice.

The counselor says that I have low self-esteem, no sense of worth, all stemming from childhood issues. That the A happened because the OM gave me the attention that I needed. That it wasn't about sex, it was about attention. It bothers the counselor that I took all of the abuse. It's not healthy.

The MCs say that I should stand up for myself, start putting myself as a priority. Stop letting him have such emotional control over me. Even H tell me he wants us to be less dependent on each other. But then when I try to do something on my own, he ends up sabatoging it. I don't know it this is intentional, or just because he can't let go either.

In Sept. '08, H came up w/ a new attitude of "no expectations". He wanted us to have a fresh start w/ no expectations. I said that I do have a few expectations. I expect him not to cheat. At first he agreed, but then later changed his mind. He agreed that if things were right between us, he shouldn't want to cheat, but he'll tell me if it comes to that. I'm worried that he might be cheating now. His "no expectations" makes me feel like our marriage is on a trial basis. He even said "imagine that we're dating". He says he loves me, but not like before. He doubts that I ever loved him. He doubts that I love him now. Because how can he believe it now, when I said it before, but it must not have been true.

And I realize as I'm telling all this, that I'm only telling the bad. We do have good times. Whenever he will relax and be w/ me, we get along great. We have fun, go places, and tackle parenting issues together.

But, I'm tired of being scared all the time. Scared of him leaving, scared of his changing moods, scared of him cheating, scared that when I tell him I love him that he won't say anything back. I know I hurt him terribly. In his mind, I still have not answered his questions. The main one being "why". I think I have answered it indepth, but it's just not the answer he wants. I think what he really wants me to say is that it was all a lie from the very beginning, I never loved him, we were never special, etc. I'm not sure why he wants this or what it will do for him.

I came on this forum for answers, but I'm not even sure exactly what I'm asking. It's been 2.5 years since d-day and the stress is killing me. Do I continue as the FWW, constantly beg forgivess and live as a second class citizen? Or do I start standing up for myself and if he can't handle it, so be it? We seem to be at some kind of impasse. He doesn't see himself as a WH. Even though he thinks he's done nothing wrong, I'm willing to forgive him and move on. He says he can't forgive me until he completely understands all the whys, whats and details of my A. But when I answer his questions it's never good enough. I'm not sure I agree w/ the counselors that H is so very insecure, but assuming that's true, does his insecurity make him incapable of forgiveness?

You have put up with his bad behavior for way too long. You need to stand up for yourself and set boundaries. You should never have accepted him physically abusing you...choking you?
I know how crazed infidelity can make a person but your WH is getting off on making you an punching bag (literally) and using your A as an excuse to his never ending As.

Don't put up with this anymore. Enough is enough and this is more than enough.

No one should tolerate abuse.

There hasn't been any physical abuse since the choking incident in May. Now it's more emotional abuse. Or maybe more precisely, emotional control. I know I let his mood determine my mood too easily. He's gotten very controlling about things around the house, how things are done, etc.

I don't know how to explain it, but he makes me feel like everything is my fault. Everything goes back to my A.

I've been lurking around here for quite awhile now... haven't posted in awhile, but this one pulled me out of lurk-dom.

You can click on my name to read my "story" if you want. Long story short, I had an A, and H has used it as an excuse to have an A of his own (which is my fault according to him), and I have also discovered past infidelities of his also. He-- much like your H-- has been emotionally abusive to me since I came home... much of what you wrote sounds A LOT like how my H has been. We have good times, sure, but I feel that I'm always walking on eggshells because he can lose it at any given time... and make my life miserable. And, anything he does "wrong"... he has a get-out-of-jail-free card... my A. It all goes back to that.

Shannon-- the first thing I had to realize was to let go of my OWN guilt. Guilt is a healthy feeling-- it tells us that we did something wrong, and that we should make amends for what we did wrong to another. And yes, having an A creates a situation where you are pretty much making amends for the rest of your life. BUT! That doesn't mean you become a doormat. That's what we've BOTH done. Become a doormat. Sure, our H's have full right to be upset/mad/angry etc etc.... but they don't have the right to "take it out" however they see fit. And especially not as a pattern. I think every BS on this board has gone off the deep end a few times and LB'd up and down... and I really don't think that's a problem... the problem becomes when it is the ONLY method for dealing with all of the crap.

There's nothing you can do to change the past-- you can learn, grow, become a better person, wife, mother. You can't change the past. YOU need to rid yourself of the guilty "I deserve it" attitude. BTDT. It doesn't work. Your H will never wake up one morning and say "OK, I've punished her enough, now back to being a good H". Won't happen-- not without you setting some healthy boundaries for yourself.

I know how hard that is... I felt like I deserved it every time he flew off the handle, called me names, overreacted, did whatever he pleased no matter what I said or how I felt about things... and blamed everything on me. I felt I deserved it... on top of never really establishing in my life how to set boundaries in the first place... it was a recipe for disaster. I was constantly trying to make everyone else happy in my life... at my own expense. I became a doormat (and always had been one). And I believe to this day my lack of personal boundaries and understanding of them led directly and indirectly to my A. Its something I am working really, really hard on.

Are you familiar with the concept of boundaries?

The thing is... I accepted abuse from my H for 2 years... name calling, rejection, screaming and yelling, stonewalling, etc etc... He pretty much controlled my whole life.

I am just beginning my journey to fixing all of this. I'm starting by implementing my OWN boundaries... in my entire life, but mostly with my H. And getting rid of my guilt... I keep that memory of what I did, but that DOES NOT mean I have to "put up with" abuse. No way. Nor does my putting up with abuse show, at all, how much I love my H. Its hard, it really is, I won't lie. But, I feel myself getting stronger, and I know my H's behavior is changing-- slowly, but it is. Its not something we talk about. We aren't there yet. Someday I hope to be able to.

Do you think we could work on boundaries here? I know there's some good posts around here on boundaries and consequences-- and members that are much more experienced than me. I am really just beginning my journey.

I feel your pain, I really do...

E.

Shannon,

Along the line of Eeyoree's post. Let me offer you something to think about.

First, quilt is an emotion that is supposed to stop us from doing something bad, or make stop something we are doing that is bad. It is a paralyzing emotion.

Remorse is an emotion a lot like guilt but it call one to take action. It calls one to try and make up for our failures, but it also has a limit.

You should have been feeling remorse and acted on it. And that means doing the right thing...for your H and for YOU.

Are you behaving in a manner that you are proud of?
Are you allowing someone else to run over your boundaries?

Yes you are, out of guilt. Too late for guilt, in fact guilt is what ended your affair, all those years ago. You have nothing to feel guilty about now. Remorse for your actions? Yes, absolutely.

You don't have a marriage, you are imprisoned. It is time you set your boundaries and explain to him what you will and won't tolerate. It is time for you to explain to him your vision of what a good marriage is and see if he has such a vision.

It may well be time for you to leave this man. I say this as a man and a very pro-marriage man. The WS or in your case FWS has an obligation to be remorseful and do what they can to rebuild the marriage. The BS, IF THEY DECIDE TO REMAIN IN THE MARRIAGE, has an obligation to not abuse the FWS and try and rebuild the marriage.

Your H has failed on all counts. Your H is abusive, he is also a drunk, and he has no intention of rebuilding the marriage simply taking advantage of you. This may change but it will only change when he finally understands you have boundaries, you will enforce your boundaries, and you can and will leave him if he crosses them and abuses you again.

One of the conditions for you to remain in this marriage is for him to be in counseling, MC and IC. Your children don't need to be exposed to this drama and his outbursts. They don't need a mother cowering in the corner of the kitchen. You probably could use some serious IC as well.

DO NOT TOLERATE HIS ABUSE ANY LONGER.

God Bless,

JL

Don't forget to read the articles at this site. Emotional needs are NOT being met and love busters are rampant.

By all means have hubby contact this site. There are many here that would side with him. Hopefully we can get balanced input.

I understand what you're saying about boundaries. I don't know how to begin, but I understand the concept

I know I do a lot of things now out of guilt/remorse or whatever. And H expects that. He also questioned how many of my actions were driven by guilt during the 20 years of silence. He thinks the whole 20 years was a total lie and a sham. We will have our 25th anniversary in the spring, but he only considers us married 4.5 years. The 2 years before my A, and the 2.5 years after I confessed. (one of the counselors pointed out that using that logic it should start after H's A was discovered, but H didn't see it that way!)

I'm just really confused right now. We actually get along pretty well. He can be extremely charming and attentive. But there's this underlying tension and moodiness. I think this all boils down to him not forgiving me. He says he can't forgive me until he fully understands what happened. I don't know if this is just an excuse he's using for not forgiving or if it's true. He's very analytical in his thinking, and in his mind, there has to be ONE absolute, concrete answer for everything. Very black and white thinking, no gray area.

He got mad at the MC because he thinks they told him to shut up and not talk about my A. That's not exactly true. They encouraged time limits (no more all-night marrathons) and said don't keep going over and over the same material. Well, that's exactly what H had been doing for 2 years, which was getting us nowhere, but he saw limitations as not being able to talk at all. I don't know if I'll be able to get him to go back to MC. I've been going to the MC for IC, and H really doesn't like it.

The MC has told me that he doesn't see H changing, so I'll either have to decide I can live with things the way they are, or I can change and that could/would probably mean the end of the M.

Write a journal of your A and add to it whenever you remember something.

Let H have access to this book and ask him to write questions and comments as he reads.

We've basically done this by email. He'd send me long, rambling emails. They would be full of venting, which could get quite nasty and hurtful, and full of questions. Which I always tried to answer. And I think we've covered everything. He'll ask the same things, or maybe change up the wording a little. And remember, this has been going on 2.5 years. These emails have slowed down considerably. But maybe just because he thinks he's not allowed to talk about it anymore.

If BH is looking to "fully understand" your A and why you did it, he will be stuck in this thinking forever because there will NEVER be an answer to appease him. There is no way to logically wrap your mind around the idea that someone who is supposed to love and honor you can either willfully inflict such devastating harm on his spouse or just didn't give a damn about them at all. Both options suck.

Well, we can start here! I can let you know what's worked for me thus far. I'm still very, very much a work in progress, but honestly, getting started was one of the hardest parts for me! And honestly believing that enforcing my boundaries WAS NOT disrespecting my H, or sending the message that I didn't love him.

I swear, you might be married to my H... My H also sees things as very black and white too... I think that is what makes this hard... (partially)...

For example... last Monday, H was in "one of his moods" where he starts with the name callings, being mean, stone walling, threatening to leave, pouting and sulking around the house... etc etc. Usually if I ask him what's wrong, I get a "nothing" (but in that "something is very wrong" voice...), or "he doesn't want to talk about it". I simply told him that I was sorry he was in a bad mood, if he wanted to talk to let me know, and that I couldn't tolerate being in the house while he was acting in such a manner... so I was going out for awhile. And did so. Remove yourself from the situation-- start there-- now what you can't do is scream and yell back at him, and then leave. Do it calmly. Calmly state that the situation is too stressful for you, and you don't want to get into another knock-down drag out situation, so you are going to go out and take a breather for awhile.

If you're anything like me, when he "winds up" you do too... emotionally. Crying, begging, pleading. That has to stop-- its instinctive, but it allows him to further view you as "beneath" him and someone he controls. You control yourself. No crying, begging, pleading. Leave before that happens.

I've started there, and already I can somewhat see a small difference. We have light years to go, but that alone has started to work. And NOT getting in those knock-down drag out, all night long arguments/cry-fests/LB-fests helps a TON. And that is something YOU can control by LEAVING THE ROOM/HOUSE etc when he starts. Just say that you can't handle it (that is the truth, right?) and that you don't want to go down that road again, and LEAVE.

I know what you mean about the "I can't talk about it at all" comment. My H made a similar comment when presented with the exact thing that you said you wanted you and your H to do (time limits, etc). That black and white stuff can be hard to deal with!

Anyways, start with a boundary of you will not be spoken to disrespectfully. And its consequence is if he continues to speak to you that way, you will not respond, and you will leave the house/room for a period of time to allow both of you to cool down.

E.

You're right Black Raven: both options do suck.

He's never going to be happy with any answer. And I've told him that.

I'm not happy about his answer to his A. I find it very hard to believe that it wasn't revenge. His friends have all told him the same thing, but he doesn't believe it. He really thinks he's above something like revenge, that his A didn't mean anything because it was an experiment. And I drove him to it. He did let it slip the other day that he got too involved w/ the OW and enjoyed her company.

I HATE his friendship w/ the woman he propositioned. He doesn't see it as disrespectful or hurtful to our M.

He says he has no respect for me. Because of the A, and because of how he's treated me.

Sometimes I wonder why, but I do still love him. But after all he's done, and his holier than thou attitudes, I don't respect him either.

I'm afraid he might be cheating now, but I can't prove anything. He learned from the last time. He knows I check the phone bill, etc. It feels like he keeps a lot from me. He actually tells me that he does, because he wants to distance himself from me. That we're too close. I think we're not close enough! I'm completely transparent w/ him. Actually, I'm very uncomfortable on this forum because I didn't tell him I was looking for advice. I know he'd get mad about the way I explained things.

I want a real marriage. And I need someone I can count on. I want expectations. I want to trust the person I'm with.

Brilliant idea!

Thanks for the reply Eeyoree. But that's a hard boundary to start with! If I tell him I can't take it, or don't want to talk, he really gets upset. We're in a strange situation now, because he thinks he can't talk at all. I'm afraid it's building up inside him and he's going to explode.

Other than an impending explosion, the talks have pretty much gotten past name calling and yelling. It's just the same questions and comments over and over. Reword them a little differently and ask them over and over again. Or he'll get hung up on a thought or phrase. Like did I realize I was "hostile" with him back in 1986 when the A was going on? Hostile was the word of the day. We discussed it, a lot, and I admitted that yes, I was probably hostile because I was acting defensive because I was hiding something from him. But, he still doesn't believe that I grasp how hostile and how bad I treated him. So that discussion allowed him to vent another view point about how hurt he was, but it didn't accomplish anything.

And yes, I realize how b*tchy and unsympathic that sounds. I'm willing to talk, argue, beg, remember and all of that, but I'd like something productive to come of it. Neither one of us feel any better after we talk.

OK, back to boundaries. How could I set boundaries about other women?

Okay.

Let me see if I get this right. You've been nice to him for an extended period. Your patience is wearing thin. He defies your requests for NC with OW. He feels entitled to infidelity.

Plan B.

Vets?

How do you plan B when you're not sure anything is going on? Or should I plan B until he agrees never to do it again?

Wow, Shannon and eeyore, our husbands must be triplets. Mine doesnt' do any physical abuse,and he hasn't had an affair (that I know about) but definitely emotional abuse. In fact, today he said he wants to separate because we hadn't had sex in 4 days. That is the "icing on the cake." Keep in mind I was exhausted from a weekend of intense painting of the living room, exacerbating an old ankle injury, and could hardly move Saturday and Sunday.

If I enforce a boundry he will leave me. I don't know any more if I care or not. Like eeyore said, I wind up crying and begging him to stay married. It's what I do instinctively. Last night I stopped myself and left the room and slept on the couch. Today I get the "I'm moving out" speech. Maybe I should let him go. We'll lose the house for sure, I cannot afford it and daycare.

Sorry for the t/j- but I thought I was all alone.

Shannon,

First off I want you to think of all the conditions that you would like in a new and improved marriage.

1) No more cheating.
2) No more physical, emotional, psychological, or sexual abuse.
3) Cut off all contact w/ his "friend" that you don't like.
4) Full openness, honesty, and transparency.
5) Full participation in MC.
5) An apology for the way he has treated you.

These are a few of the things that I would definitely include. I would then stand up to your WH and tell him that you are sorry for the damage that you did to the relationship by cheating and not admitting it all those years, but you will no longer tolerate his abuse, and he needs to treat you better and do the things that you laid out earlier.

Now chances are, he won't take you seriously, but if he does, you need to monitor things like his phone log and get a keylogger for his computer. Block out the dating sites he frequents with the keylogger software.

Now, what is probably going to happen is that he will yell and scream and continue to treat you poorly. This is very important so keep this in mind. Insecure people are very afraid of being alone, and he is abusing you to prove to himself that he is the dominant one and controls you. This is where he gets his security from (as demented as that may seem). He hasn't left you yet, and I'm pretty sure that he doesn't want you to leave. With any bully, all you need to do is stand up to him. If he continues to abuse you, I would get a bulldog lawyer, file for divorce on grounds of abuse, ask for the maximum spousal support and splitting of assets as possible, file an order to grant you sole use of the house and get him kicked out on grounds of abuse. I would then let him know that you would still be interested in staying married as long as he agrees to your conditions you laid out previously. I would then go to plan B and act like you are moving on with your life without him.

This man is afraid of being alone, and I'm sure he would crumple if you took back control and showed him that you really mean business and would divorce him if he continues to treat you the way he does.

Jim, thanks for the reply.

He would never agree to a keylogger. (Maybe I should add that to the list of conditions?) He doesn't use the home computer. He uses his company issued, work laptop. And, he's a professional computer geek, I could never install one without him knowing.

This whole "no expectations" attitude is really hard to deal with. I don't agree with it, and not even sure I understand it. If I gave him a list of condtions he'd say it was a list of expectations and he wouldn't have anything to do w/ it.

I have a feeling he wouldn't take me seriously if I laid down the law and said I wasn't going to tolerate certain things. We're barely paying bills now, so he certainly knows that I'm in no shape finacially to be own my own w/ the kids (even if I got 90% of his paycheck as support) He probably also realizes that I'm in no shape emotionally. I won't go into detail, but both of our children have serious problems, and it takes 2 fulltime parents to handle them. All along I've been very careful not to issue idle threats or ultimatiums that I can't follow thru with.

I don't think he'd be alone for long. He likes to party. He's always been attracted to confident, hard drinking, party type women. Which is the EXACT opposite of what I am! I think he'd hook up with several someones very quickly. It would be a bad situation and very harmful to him and our kids. But it could last for a while. He'd enjoy it. It would take him a while to learn that that lifestyle was unhealthy for him.

I know I sound like I'm making excuses for everything. His behavior, me putting up w/ his behavior, me not standing up for myself, etc. But please understand that I've invested so much in this, and I really feel like we're on the brink of happiness. We're so much better than we were 2.5 years ago, 1.5 years ago, even 6 months ago.

Most of the time we're happy. It's not soulmate deep, but it's more than surface deep. I think he's accepted that we can't do anything about the past, but he just can't quite seem to reach forgiveness. So it still bothers him a lot. As for me, I can't quite seem to get over all the trauma. I get flashbacks of abuse, I can't relax, I watch his every expression, I constantly worry about other women, I'm afraid that any minute he's going to say he's leaving.

If he's really as insecure as the counselor thinks, how do I help him w/ that? Is it possible for me to help him w/ that?