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Thank you all so much!

I'll try to hit on everything I have read in your responses, forgive me if I miss something as I am still trying to digest it all.

As for SF, once we were past the medical problems from the pregnancy I made several attempts to seduce her. They are generally met with a mixture of disbelief and anger. Disbelief that I didn't understand the way she explained it to me last time I tried for it. Anger because she now has to defend herself on a topic she thought she had already shut down. Her closing line is that we should probably split up if I can't own the fact that it's not going to happen unless I leave it alone and let her start it.

Cheating. I don't know. She has a lot of male clients, I've met a lot of them. This one is someone that she claims she doesn't really like (I know, she could be saying this to throw me off of the truth). She also maintains that he is rarely there when she is. I can call her, and she always answers the phone. I never hear that anyone is there with her and the business is closed on weekends. She has keys and an alarm code. Otherwise, the rest of her time is easily accounted for. But, I spend 60 hours a week in the office, so who knows. It has to be hard for her to do anything while our daughter is around as they are attatched at the hip. I am inclined to believe that she isn't cheating, but she is a fantastic liar and I tend to avoid confrontation. I have accused her in the past to find that she really wasn't cheating, and it did some damage to the relationship.

Lingerie. Well, frankly she is a very beautiful and vain woman. Hair, makeup, nails...since I have met her they are all religiously maintained, so there is no real change to note. Lingerie is basically a few pairs of stockings. She never wears stockings as she works in jeans when she visits a client. They have been in the drawer for a while, when I first found them they were new and in the package. When I saw they were being worn I asked and she said she ran out of trouser socks and wore them in a bind. Thongs, she has worn those since I met her. The new stuff could just as easily be replacement for what she has worn out. She lives in high heels, literally. The only time she wears sneakers is to the gym. And she hardly ever has time to go to the gym, when she does it's obvious that she was working out. She's only gone for an hour and comes home sweaty and exhausted. I've never found suspicious stains in her underwear beyond normal discharge.

Money. Well, starting her business we did take on a lot of debt. We both have expensive cars, and live in an expensive neighborhood. I find it just as easy to believe that we really are strapped, especially in the current financial climate. Normally, I don't have a problem spending money on myself, I'm just not the kind of guy that does that. Beyond a new pair of sneakers every summer and some new suits and ties and stuff, I can't say I am anywhere as interested in my attire as she is. I dress nicely, but GQ isn't going to feature me in their publication anytime soon if you catch my drift.

It's tough to spy on her in any way. Since our home phone is primarily for her business (I get all of my calls at my office or on my cell phone) and the only people she contacts from it are business associates...well.... I can't follow her, when she goes anywhere without me I have my daughter. I don't have a car-seat and drive a sports car that won't accomodate it. Neither of us are social butterflies, so I don't have familiy or friends that I could leave my daughter with while I gather information.

Again, if I missed anything in your replies please remind me. Geez, I REALLY appreciate you good people helping me. Good people can be found....

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Based upon this, I would suspect her likely affair to be with a married man and I would guess it's been going on for awhile.

The typically wayward in a romantic whirlwind trist, is much more obvious. They just can't get enough OM. However, the long term adulterer with a married man can and do compartmentalize their dual lives much better. She's careful and methodic about her affair because she doesn't want her MM to get caught and end it. They talk a good game but they both know the MM is not going to leave his wife and kids. So they just live this double life which drives their spouses nuts for years.

Just a guess.

Again...voice activated digital voice recorder. Get a couple of them. You'll either catch her talking with OM or her "girlfriend in the know".

Mr. Wondering


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
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Originally Posted by JimmyJones
As for SF, once we were past the medical problems from the pregnancy I made several attempts to seduce her. They are generally met with a mixture of disbelief and anger. Disbelief that I didn't understand the way she explained it to me last time I tried for it.

How did she explain it last time?

What kind of birth control do(did) you use? Sometimes WW can caught that way.

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Originally Posted by MrWondering
that) The lingerie and trimming of her vajayjay


rotflmao rotflmao rotflmao



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Originally Posted by MrWondering
Based upon this, I would suspect her likely affair to be with a married man and I would guess it's been going on for awhile.

The typically wayward in a romantic whirlwind trist, is much more obvious. They just can't get enough OM. However, the long term adulterer with a married man can and do compartmentalize their dual lives much better. She's careful and methodic about her affair because she doesn't want her MM to get caught and end it. They talk a good game but they both know the MM is not going to leave his wife and kids. So they just live this double life which drives their spouses nuts for years.

Just a guess.

Again...voice activated digital voice recorder. Get a couple of them. You'll either catch her talking with OM or her "girlfriend in the know".

Mr. Wondering

I agree with Mr. W's take. When you thought both of you were cheating on each other, she actually was, and she was projecting that on you. She's been cheating for a long time and knows how to hide things. She has so much control of you, so she knows how to get away with things without you ever knowing. I would check all phone records, search for a secret phone, and put a keylogger on her computer. I think the post-partum depression has made it difficult now for her to meet your needs anymore. Are you sure the baby is yours? Does it look like you?

I don't think that you realize this, but it seems to me like your WW is a sociopath. You need to catch her cheating. You said you spent 60 hours a week at work. First of all, that is too much to be able to spend the necessary amount of quality time with her meeting her needs. Secondly, it gives her the opportunity to fool around on you. Spend a little more time at home, and she will be squirmy and probably more brazen in her affair. The fact that you haven't caught another car in the driveway is probably a testament at how careful the OM is to prevent getting caught. Next time you drive by, stop at the house and peer inside. OM may have parked down the block, or put the car in the garage to hide.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
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If she IS having an affair, I'm wondering what she's doing with the baby while she does. She works at home as it is because she doesn't trust anyone with the baby. If she's DOING IT with the baby in the room, you've got more to worry about than you think.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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I'm sorry things have reached the point they have. And, while I'm very new and not one of the wise, experienced sages of the MB discussion forum, I thought it might help you to hear from a (former) WS regarding some of your wife's actions.

You seem to want to believe the best, or at least very reluctant to believe the worst. While that is laudable, I think at this point the cumulative actions of your wife speak to the worst. Increased attention to personal grooming (e.g., her shaving her pubic region) and hyperprotection of passwords, personal informatin/devices, etc. are 2 major hallmarks of an affair. And that says nothing about the new lingerie that's already been worn -- and not for your benefit. (The follow-up is then: if not for your benefit, then whose?)

If this has been going on for this long and your wife is showing no signs of positive change or improvement, you need to take a stand. I will let others with more experience and wisdom speak to how best to do that, but just wanted to contribute my opinion as one who's been the betrayer. Best of luck.


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One more thing: ditto on Jim's take, that the earlier accusations of an affair before your daughter was born are most likely your wife having an affair and projecting that on you.

Also, good advice to be more available, be home more, do some more diligent sleuthing than just checking the driveway for a car. Especially if this has been going on this long, your wife will be thinking much more deceptively and cunningly than you imagine.

It may be hard for you to adopt this kind of thinking. It does not seem like a "nice" thing to do - nobody wants to be suspicious and devious and whatnot; however, at this point you have to be in order to make any necessary changes.


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the no SF is a key giveaway. Does the child take a nap? If so, I would recommend unexpectedly showing up one day turning nap time. Leave something you need for a meeting or make up a legitimate reason. Does the children play over at a friends house? A wayward will find a way to make it happen. she is not celibate, only getting her SF elsewhere. JMO


Me: 32 BS DDay: 9/14/08
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Also, remember the saying that I often see floating around. People with nothing to hide hide nothing. She is hiding something...the question is, what is it?


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I agrre with the Sociopath assessment or at the very least NPD or BPD. The way you describe your wife seems to fit with the cluster B personality disorders which are fairly common among WS's.
Clearly, she is controlling and abusive. I think , s others have pointed out, it is pretty likely she is cheating. I agree, go into investigation mode.
No sex for 4 years and she is grooming etc.? I think she is cheating and being abusive to scare you into backing down when you inquire.

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Again, I will try to hit on everything brought up.

My work schedule has only recently increased, normally I only work 40-45 hours per week and spend the rest of my time at home. The recent increase in the amount of time I spend here is due to what's going on in economy.

Daughter naps for an hour and a half in the afternoon. I've done many drive-bys and stop-ins and have never seen anything out of the norm. Ususally she still hasn't even done her makeup or finished getting dressed. I highly doubt anything happens during the day, during nap time. I KNOW that she would never do anything inappropriate while my daughter is with her. She is a fantastic mother, and holds to a very strict set of morals with DD. If anything is happening, it's while I am home with DD. Which actually makes sense, how can I spy on her or catch her if I am stuck in the house without a way to leave with DD. From her point of view, that's added security.

Last time we discussed SF, roughly 2 months ago, she flatly told me that I could either look past my own needs and committ to being there for DD, or I should make the decision to leave immediatly. I backed down, I just don't want to think of a day that I don't get to play with my little girl and sing her to sleep. It's my favorite part of the day. Regarding the shaved vajayjay...she always kept it very neatly groomed and close cropped, just never shaved it bare. She says she shaved when our daughter was born (which I know is true from being in the delivery)and that each time it started to grow in it became itchy and uncomfortable, and that it was just easier to keep it shaved. Seeing that I rarely see that part of her body, I can't say how much attention she is paying to detail...if that makes sense. This is hard to write about without comming off as vulgar...

Some background. Both of us come from divorced families. My folks divorced due to infidelity on both of their parts. Her father left her when she was young, her mothers new husband adopted her when she was young. Her father caters to her mother in everyregard. She has never worked and is very pampered. And a narcisist. They love me, but are the type of people that will turn on you with very little provocation and will do NOTHING to help our marriage. They do very little to help their own daughter, for that matter.

When we both thought the other was cheating, it was me who made the accusation, not her. She was spending a lot of time at work and one night got a call on her personal cell phone from a client, while he was intoxicated. The call was very short, and my accusation was without foundation. She thought I was cheating with a girl from another office in my company. While I was friends with the girl, the only time I ever met her in person was with my wife and the other girls fiance. Otherwise, we only chatted while working and usually about work related topics. Nothing was ever said between us that I would need to hide from my wife.

I have to tell you guys that I am at a loss. But your advice is only confirming something I have been comming to realize on my own. Some relationships just can't be saved. Maybe it's time to accept the inevitable and start

I thank you all so much for taking your time to help me out.

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Originally Posted by HURTandSHOCKED
Also, remember the saying that I often see floating around. People with nothing to hide hide nothing. She is hiding something...the question is, what is it?

Very well said.

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Quote
If anything is happening, it's while I am home with DD. Which actually makes sense, how can I spy on her or catch her if I am stuck in the house without a way to leave with DD. From her point of view, that's added security.

Get GPS, or when you know she is going out, plan to get someone to watch the kid (or take the kid for a drive). Get a PI if you have to, just make sure you know where she's going. I would first get the GPS, ask her where she is going, and then watch to see if that is where she went.

Quote
Last time we discussed SF, roughly 2 months ago, she flatly told me that I could either look past my own needs and committ to being there for DD, or I should make the decision to leave immediatly. I backed down, I just don't want to think of a day that I don't get to play with my little girl and sing her to sleep.

This is where you need to start standing up for yourself. You tell her that you will stop looking past your own needs when she stops looking past hers. She can start that by helping you get out of your tight finances by trading in her luxury car for a used Toyota Corolla. You should start direct depositing your check into YOUR own personal account, and give her money from it as necessary to pay for child expenses. Continue to push for SF and marriage counseling. Let her know that you will never table this discussion until something is done. You might want to start stashing that money away for a good lawyer, and definitely look around for a good one. Consult with him to determine your best course of action for getting as much custody as possible if your marriage does end.

Quote
When we both thought the other was cheating, it was me who made the accusation, not her. She was spending a lot of time at work and one night got a call on her personal cell phone from a client, while he was intoxicated. The call was very short, and my accusation was without foundation. She thought I was cheating with a girl from another office in my company. While I was friends with the girl, the only time I ever met her in person was with my wife and the other girls fiance. Otherwise, we only chatted while working and usually about work related topics. Nothing was ever said between us that I would need to hide from my wife.

The best defense is a good offense.

Quote
I have to tell you guys that I am at a loss. But your advice is only confirming something I have been comming to realize on my own. Some relationships just can't be saved. Maybe it's time to accept the inevitable and start

I'm not saying that your marriage can't be saved. You can't keep avoiding confrontation. You need to stand up for yourself, and see if sustained effort on that front will make a difference first.

Also, it seems to me that your WW is using you, and that she had the baby with you to "trap" you into the relationship. She wants to be taken care of and do as she pleases, and she knows that you don't want to lose your child, so she had one with you to control you. Once she had you under her control, she didn't have to try anymore. The best thing to do against a bully and abusers is to stand up to them. Once she finds that you no longer allow her to abuse or bully you, something will have to change. She may think that the marriage is no longer worth her effort, but at least you will no longer be abused by her.

Also, what state do you live in? Advice for getting custody depends a great deal on what state you are in. Some states are friendlier to fathers than others.

But you need to start standing up for yourself, spying on her to confirm an affair, and getting your finances out of her control.

Last edited by jmwc95; 12/15/08 01:28 PM.

Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
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Originally Posted by JimmyJones
Daughter naps for an hour and a half in the afternoon. I've done many drive-bys and stop-ins and have never seen anything out of the norm. Ususally she still hasn't even done her makeup or finished getting dressed. I highly doubt anything happens during the day, during nap time. I KNOW that she would never do anything inappropriate while my daughter is with her. She is a fantastic mother, and holds to a very strict set of morals with DD. If anything is happening, it's while I am home with DD. Which actually makes sense, how can I spy on her or catch her if I am stuck in the house without a way to leave with DD. From her point of view, that's added security.

Everyone who ends up here never imagined their spouse would cheat. I am not saying yours is, but it is possible. Your analysis is probably right, but never say never. I have seen the most insane things here that could NEVER have happened, but they actually did. And i have only been here 3 months.

I forgot who said get a voice activated recorder. Radio shack has them for 50 bucks. surely you can get away with that. in fact i would sneak 2 in with christmas shopping. put one in her car and one in your house (somewhere she won't find it. you may learn some interesting things.





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If your wife IS having a long term affair she's not going to run around frantic like the typically wayward wife having liasons all the time. They meet up when they can and it's safe. They are both comfortable with the infrequent occassional trysts and one or both of them don't likely need or want more. This will making running around trying to catch them very difficult and fruitless.

A recording device is much more passive and likely to yield results.

Rule out an affair before you start considering whether your marriage is savable or not. Considering her attitude...it's probably more savable if she is having an affair (which you can bust up and recover from with an explanation for the lack of intimacy versus her just neglecting you).

Additionally, waywards have an addiction that mimicks personality disorders. You must discover and overcome the addiction first, before assessing her mental stability.

Mr. Wondering





FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
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Read through this thread:

Spying 101


and if and when you discover an affair...this thread:

For Newly Betrayed Spouses

Mr. Wondering



FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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JJ,

I have some experience with many of the signs you are seeing.

A work from home W of 15 years who was having an A for months. Only actually seeing the OM a few times a month. "BUT" communications were daily for hours a day. All over my home phone line, while my DD was there, and I was out working.

An OM who is also M, would explain alot.

The change in "grooming habits"? The secrecy. Defensive/paranoid thoughts. Acting as if you are the bad guy enable her to justify her own actions, "It's all your fault" otherwise I have to acknowledge my own flaws in my behaviour. SF with you would mean she is cheating on him. As sick as it may seem, she views SF with her H as cheating on OM.

First priority is quiet surveillance: Commuications from home has to be the medium. Considering she would have very limited face to face time with an OM, you need to focus on her day time communication methods. I suspect this will give you an answer rather quickly. Good or bad. Tap the home phone, record convo's (during the times of day you are not their) review the calls dialy. If that provides nothing. Consider spyware on her computer. Although, I suspect the home phone might be all you need.

Only after you have done the above, in order to avoid raising any flags. You need to make some changes. Even if there is no A. You really need to Man Up! You need to regain your 50% roll in your M.

How well has accepting her threats and being steam rolled working out for you?

I really hope I am off the mark, but you have reason to be VERY concerned.

-JKT


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Originally Posted by MrWondering
If your wife IS having a long term affair she's not going to run around frantic like the typically wayward wife having liasons all the time. They meet up when they can and it's safe. They are both comfortable with the infrequent occassional trysts and one or both of them don't likely need or want more. This will making running around trying to catch them very difficult and fruitless.

This is very true. My W had an EA for a year or more, then maybe 6 physical meetings, and hadn't had one for three months when I busted her (keylogger). But they talked and IMed for hours -- soulmates, ya know?

There is a thread in here "drumroll" has a successful story of a polygraph test.

I don't think Jimmy has that leverage, but the threat of one got the truth out of my W.

Jimmy, I know you are being bombarded here, but a few questions:

1. Can you find a copy of her cell phone bill? through Verizon I can see all the calls, texts origination numbers, cities, coming in and going out. It was interesting to see the panic on D-day (wan smile)

2. What sort of birth control did you use before she got pregnant?

3. You said she told you to stop asking about SF, but what is her reason for not wanting it? Is it painful now, does she not feel close to you, is she always tired, it is hormonal,??... she must have given you an initial reason.

4. When you moved out to this suburb at her instigation, was there a male client or friend nearby?

5. And finally, this was something in retrospect my kids noted...is there a friend or neighbor or colleague that she is giggly and high around? The one time my W and the OM saw each other post-D-day, I could see it on her face when she walked in whistling.

6. Jimmy, how is the M interaction outside sex? Is she just a witch all the time? Or is there convo and recreational activities and some laughing in there?







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Is there anyone in her life she would share affair drama with "if" she were having one?

Often times, from my own experience and seeing it over and over again here, there is a caustic friend, or even family member who condones the WS A.

Can you think of anyone in your W's circle you would be leary of?

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