This is the way i see my whole M.

My H is a friendly person and jokes around with women every available opportunity. A lot of these women (not all but a lot) take his joking as flirting and they flirt back with me sitting there and he jokes right back with them also with me sitting there.

Despite my AOs, negotiating, rational discussions, telling him it hurts my feelings, all the above he continues with this behavior because he feels he is just friendly. We have a good relationship anyway because I try very hard to squelch my jealous feelings though I still mention them from time to time usually when the women flirt back (because in my mind if he had not been so friendly to begin with she could not have taken him as flirty and may not or maybe she still may have flirted back) and that was usually how I would state my feelings.

Fast forward to when ENIL moved in. As I stated early at first I had no problem with ENIL moving in to help him get on his feet. However when it became obvious that he was “using” us rather than attempting to get on his feet and not only that I felt it was interfering with our M because I really could not stand to be around the ENIL because he is such a drunkard and my H was drinking more as well with him (and my H agreed with me on this) I starting asking H to have him move out.

Well my H just kept putting off and putting off making my ENIL move out of our home and it built up resentment with me (during the time the ENIL was living with us we had a house fire, we could not live in our house for 4 months while it was being repaired, our insurance company paid for us to stay in a long term stay hotel, the ENIL went with us all 5 of us, him and our dog crammed into a hotel room for 4 months). So now not only are we not spending nearly as much time together as we had in the previous 20 years of being together (because he is with ENIL and I will not be around ENIL and H knows this is my boundary so to speak) I got to the point that I did not want to fill his SF desires because of the resentment I had built up because of the ENIL situation.

Then you add a female co-worker that enjoyed men anyway and is a drinker (I am not), my H is not getting “as much” as he would like, we aren’t spending much time together, he is drinking more, he is turning 50, he lost his mother and had BIG unresolved issues with her, his friendliness with the OW (he told me that she said she thought he was a “player” and wanted her too because of the way he talked to her) and BAM, affair!!!

It was short lived but very hard because he left me twice telling me he wanted to be with her during the three weeks between D-day and him coming home. He was home for ten days when he started to get sick. He ended up in the hospital with pneumonia, ran a 103 degree fever for 4 weeks then it dropped to 100 degrees for another week and then a week after that they went in a removed a lobe of his lung.

During this whole time that he is sick and in and out of the hospital the FOW was contacting me via my H’s work cell phone on a regular basis trying to get info about what is wrong with my H. But I had to be a caregiver to my H, I could not focus on my recovery at that time because he was so sick. Because of being a caregiver and not asking all the hard questions and looking for the reasons everything happened we did not do any “work” on the M before he went back to work where the FOW still was working.

This hit me like a ton of bricks and it was like D-day all over because we did not have a “plan” on how either of us was going to handle when he went back to work. My H on the other hand was “warm and fuzzy” all of about our relationship because I had just been his caregiver for the last 4 months and he felt all was forgotten and we didn’t have to talk about it and life would just be hunky dory.

So since then it has kind of been a battle trying to get anything about the A or ENs or anything out of my H. He has always told me that I am fine I do not need to change anything. He even said this during the A that it was not me at all it was him. Since being on MB I have tried to get him to look at the questionnaires and things, we started with the ENs one. He started filling it out and said “none of these are it” you are great at meeting my needs.

Obviously I know this can not be true or else I would be perfect and we all know there is no such being. However I do not know what to work on as he says I do everything “just fine”. So this fact plus his “friendly” behavior just leaves me feeling like it WILL happen again it is just WHEN. And I do not want to live my life that way any longer.

I believe you are right.

He has independant behavior. He isn't working on it. Doesn't see it as a problem. Sees it as your issues. His happiness comes at your expense.

If marriage is a relationship of extraordinary care this sure isn't it.

At the same time, I believe you have more power than you realize. A man has an A, has health issues and his W cares for him during this time. Wow!

He may not know now, but, he will definitely know for sure at some point in the future how awesome of a person you are!

Also, in regards to your H being happy.

You say this:


He says this:


But here is a bunch of data saying otherwise.


But, that is him. What about you? Maybe there are things about you that are constraining your life from being what you want it to be.

So what do you do? What do you want to do?

You have a plan to leave.

But, there are 3 things you say that make me very sad for you. It makes me feel that you see no hope and it makes me feel you are settling for whatever comes your way. You have given up the idea of a romantic relationship with either this H or any other potential H in the future and I sense that this is what you really want.

It is this:


and this:


and then this:

Unfortunately this is sad but I think true as well.



Well all of these things IMHO happened to both of us. The first one was MY department at work, and right after that is when I had D-day. It was a really hard time in my life as I had no one really to talk to about it as I had no more co-workers that I had had for the last 10 years.

The bankruptcy is also something that affects us both. Same with the surgeries and stuff, even though my H was the one who was physically hurt, I had to deal with it as well.

The only issues I have are with my H. I mean I have everyday life things but who doesn’t have that. I have some pretty good kids who are almost grown. I have a large family that is also my friends, I have my health, my ONLY bad thing is my M. And the sad part of that is I really do not want it to end. I love my H more than life itself but I think I really just can not get past his betrayal.

It made me take off the rose colored glasses I had had on for so long and now I do not like what I see in front of me. And I feel it has changed me as well and for the worse. I used to be a pretty happy go lucky person that was very rarely angry. Now it is the other way around, I am very rarely a happy go lucky person.


It is what I want more than anything but I feel I will not ever have it.

You can recover from the betrayal if your marriage and life become better. If not better, I don't know how one could ever get over it.

It is his lack of care that prevents your recovery. It is your sacrifice that prevents your recovery. He may not have always been a freeloader but he has become one now. He sounds lazy in his relationship and your sacrifice does nothing but reinforce the status quo. He fights to keep the status quo. It could very well take you leaving the marriage. He has alot to lose.

You said you enjoy reading. The book buyers, renters, and freeloaders would be great for you.


If you commit to a marriage of extraordinary care and the goals of marriage(lifestyle, LB's, EN's) you will get this with this H or the next. If you act on these you will get this with this H or the next.

You can't control your H. But, I would give him signposts showing him the direction he needs to go to properly care for you. Put pressure on the current lousy agreement you have between the two of you. Try to renegotiate it to the goals of marriage.

I'd start by asking him how he would feel talking about what the goals of marriage are.

I would ask him about marriage being about extraordinary care. I'd ask him about the goals of marriage. I'd ask him for his thoughts on these. I'd respect and understand his point of view. Don't try to tell him your view is correct and his is wrong, but, explain your point of view. I'd then let him know how much you have thought about it and how much you agree with them. I'd let him know you are committed to these goals and working through the problems you will encounter trying to meet them.

His responses will be very interesting as you have spent much more time on this than he has and your thoughts will be very thoughtful. He's got along way to go to catch up and may never get there but he will find out your serious.

And this is where i have been for the last two years.

My Hs thoughts are this (and while i can "agree" with alot of what he says i think that since he had an A it changes things somewhat, it MAKES the NEED for EPs even more necessary IMHO):

because we had a good relationship for quite a long time (and we did other than his "friendliness"), he says we let "life" get in the way and forgot about each other and that is how the affair happened. He loves me and always has (which i also believe) and as long as we don't let "life" get in the way again and continue to meet each other's needs then why do we need to change anything.



He pretty much has always been a freeloader and does not take my feelings into consideration. However we agree on most things so even though i may sacrifice in some cases (things i do not agree with him on), i feel i do not sacrifice all the time.

Even in the issues that we have discussed here, i sacrifice somewhat but i still enforce my "boundaries" about them. But i do understand what you are saying about keeping the "status quo".



I really do need to get this book and others. I have not read much since D-day. As you can tell by all of the things i have went through in the last couple of years my life is pretty "stressed" most of the time right now.

We are all taking a vacation (me, H, YDD, DS, and a friend of each of theirs who are like our kids) the week between Christmas and New Year and i plan on doing a lot of relaxing and reading while we are gone.



I think that i have been committed to this type of marriage since i got married, it is my H that has not at least on the extraordinary care part. I am sure that i have LBs now and then (like telling him when his "friendliness" bothers me his demeanor just instantly changes because he gets upset that i mentioned it yet again) and i KNOW i have AOs as well. But i have always naturally followed EPs and think of my H before i do most anything.


I will try to work on this, hopefully reading some of the suggested books i have heard about here on MB and being in a relaxing surrounding for a whole week can get a jump start on this.



I will let you know how things progress.

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my posts, it is at least giving me a "glimmer" of hope of things getting better. I will at least try to have an open mind that my H may actually be able to "get it".

There is nothing more miserable than this. Nothing. I hope your H can put down any defensiveness he may have and just simply understand how painful this is.


When I read this all I can think of is how important it really is to have empathy and understanding for each other. It is hard enough at times to really understand someone else. And when you go through really painful and emotional times it becomes even harder, but, it is truly by having respect for the other person and understanding from each side that you can actually recover from this.

There is so much you and your H don't know. So much you both need to learn about marriage and about each other.

I want to tell you a little more about my experience.

My W and I had been working really hard to recover our marriage and life after her A. I had a repentant, remorseful wife who put in place EP's and was working hard. We went to the MB Weekend(best $1500 we have ever spent) and then starting coaching with Dr. Harley every week or every other week.

We were working hard. Both of us.

We made some progress at first and then it stalled. We worked harder and talked to Dr. Harley some more.

After 6-7 months I wanted to quit. We both weren't happy. We were miserable. We were trying hard. We both wanted a great marriage. We understood the MB program and it made sense to both of us. We were coaching with Dr. Harley. But, we weren't happy and it felt like it was getting worse. How deflating. How hopeless.

I mean if two people really want something and your getting help maybe it just CAN'T work out. It is easier to walk away when you have worked so hard. At the same time, a larger investment has been made, by both sides, so both sides are more disappointed than anything else.

But, underneath we were really making progress. We were gaining understanding of each other. Real understanding. We made a concerted effort to not fight(not make each other unhappy) and worked on the POJA. On the smallest of things. Then on issues with the kids and then on and on.....

We then actually solved a problem. My god, do you know how good solving one problem made us feel. Do you know that by solving a simple problem using the POJA that I felt my W cared for me and I for her. And the snowball slowly starts rolling in the other direction.

This stuff is hard and the path is narrow.

When you look back you see how frustrated Dr. Harley(he is a great person, very caring) must have been. He kept us in the game as he knew both of our TRUE MOTIVATIONS was to make this work. He had to see that if the H would simply respect and see the W's point of view and the W simply respect and see the H's point of view and have empathy for each other that this would resolve itself.

Ever since the A, I have viewed this as the most important negotiation I will have in my life and I am having this negotiation with my W.

I approached the negotiation by viewing it as a funnel. Yes, a funnel. At the bottom and narrowest part of the funnel were specific issues. At the top of the funnel was the big picture or the goals. Anything within the funnel were solutions that I would be enthusiastic about. And if I was able to get things right at the top the properties of the funnel would funnel to the bottom. Anything to the outside of the funnel were solutions that I wasn't enthusiastic with. The funnel itself were my boundaries.

Every time we were outside of the funnel I knew that we had to work our way back up the funnel. We were outside of the funnel because I was only seeing my funnel of opportunities, not hers too. I needed to understand hers and see the funnel that was created when we merged our's together. Then we could more effectively work our way down.

It is a little hokey but I was able to picture it and understand and use it to help guide me. It is why I have tried to push you up the funnel. If you can't have a common funnel at the top no way are you going to meet at the bottom. And if you can't agree at the top of the funnel then things become much clearer on which direction to take.

Agreeing that marriage is a relationship of extraordinary care is a first step but a big first step as long as one discusses what care really means. And that is tied to the goals. And these fundamentals tie to you effectively learning to solve problems. And when you effectively solve problems it is amazing how much one can feel cared for.

I want to thank you as well. When I write to you it makes me want to understand my W more. It makes me become more empathetic and I become a better partner.

Well i am by no means complaining and am almost scared to even post this. But things have been going really well the last couple of weeks.

He has went over to the ENIL house a couple of times but only to drop something off to him, not to bring him to our house, he did not ask me to go with him, he went there and straight back.

We have been out in public together quite a bit here lately and there has only been one time that i can think of the he "flirted" with any women, he seems to FINALLY be trying to do this and i am so thankful. It may only be when he is in front of me i do not know for sure one way or another but it could be he is practicing therefore he is also not doing it when he is not around me (i am not sure that made sense but i know what i am trying to say ).

Maybe, just maybe, he is thinking about my feelings a liitle more.

If he is truly trying and motivated that is great.

This is where Dr. Harley would talk about habits and to recognize that so much of what we do it habit. Changing ones habits is hard and takes time and repetition. But, it is possible to change habits that remove LB units into ones that deposit in one's LB but that it is important to recognize it takes time AND practice.

During the MBW, Dr. Harley had us all cross our hands over our chests. He then asked who crossed their hands over their chest with there left arm over there right and who had their right over there left. He then asked if it felt comfortable and if we do this the same way every time. And, of course, we all said yes. He stated, you do this the same way every time and you don't even think about it. You just do it. It is a habit. So, we can have thoughtless habits that destroy our love for each other.

He then asked us to switch which arm was over the other. So, if your habit was to have your right arm over your left to now place your left arm over your right. He asked how does that now feel and it "feels" uncomfortable. You can then keep practicing this new way over and over and in time it would become comfortable and a new habit would be created. Thus, we can create new habits that build our love for each other. And once we have created these habits, we don't even have to think about it.

Your H is capable of creating new habits to replace his old habits if he is motivated and practices. Since it is a habit, he may slip up, but if he is trying and practices he CAN learn a new habit that builds the marriage instead of destroying it.

It sounds as though you and your wife struggled with things as well.

Not that i want to know to put a "timeline" up for me and my H (IMHO there is no timeline as long as you are both willing to do the work and make the necessay changes which is where we were lacking), but i am curious as to how long it took you and your wife to get to the point where you "solved" a problem.

I certainly hope so. I at the moment at least have hope that he CAN and IS.

I would say it took us 7-8 months to actually solve a real problem after we both started working hard.

I do think it could have happened much sooner. Maybe half the time.

But, it is completely dependent on the commitment you both give. And sometimes that is the biggest process. There is the commitment to talk the talk and then there is the commitment to walk the walk.

We started addressing EN's and LB's and quickly saw LB's as our biggest issue. This worked well for awhile as we communicated alot of information that we would have normally have ignored. So, we gained knowledge of each other and the patterns in our lives.

But, that didn't solve problems as it led to feeling attacked/blamed and escalated into arguments.

We started to walk the walk when decided that arguing was a waste of time and proceeded to aggressively implement the POJA. It was the combination of the knowledge we gained by working on EN's and LB's and actually applying this via the POJA that we actually solved problems.

The POJA was big. We thought we were doing it early on, but, we really weren't. We didn't appreciate the words enthusiastic agreement enough. We would stop negotiating when we had reluctant agreement. It was the real application of the POJA that made the difference. I wish we would have understood this 3-4 months earlier than we did.

I swear this recovery thing is one step forward and two steps back sometimes.

Just had a bad evening!!!

It most definitely is. I was in a bad spot myself yesterday - was really wallowing around in self-pity and self-blame.

Yes that was me too and it just carried into today a little bit (not as much as last night). I hate it when i do that but sometimes you do.

What happened? Same problems or something new?

Basically the same problem. I just felt that once again he picked someone elses feelings over mine and our children. Which he has done so many times. It just really bothers me when he does it.

I know this may sound silly but we have always budgeted for a certain amount of money to spend on our kids each year for Christmas. Our kids are old enough to know what that dollar amount is and they stick to it when they gives us their gift ideas.

Well because we are going on this trip after Christmas my H felt that i should "charge" the kids so to speak what the price tag price on things were, rather than what i really paid for it (sale price). So i told him okay and i did not have a problem with it since they are going on the trip as well.

But then last night he went to the ENIL to have the ENILs son do some work on our car before driving it for our vacation. He asked the ENILs son what he would charge to do the work and he gave my H a price. So when the work was complete my H paid him and them gave him a $20.00 tip.

Like i said i know it seems silly to get upset about that, but i felt that he was being a scrooge with our kids but giving this extra money that i was not allowed to spend on our kids to the ENILs son. He also bought the ENIL a twelve pack of beer while he was there waiting on the work to be completed.

So i controlled my emotions and did not really get angry or say anything to him, but i have just felt sad today thinking that is it always going to be such a struggle for the little things. Like i said just feeling a little sorry for myself.

And wondering once again if i just perceive things differently because i do not care for the ENIL and it effects my emotions when it comes to things that involve him.

Oh well tomorrow is another day!!!

Does this mean that you saved $20 exactly and that $20 was the tip amount?

What do you mean by saying "not allowed"?

I am just using these dollar amounts to show my point.

Me and my H went shopping to buy the kids presents. I needed to spend $100 each on them. When we went to the store (H did not say anything until we got to the store). When i found things they would like i said oh YDD would like this and it is on sale plus i have a coupon for an extra 15% off so it would only be $20.00 after the sale price and the discount.

My H said, yes but the regular price is $40.00 so it is $40.00 off of her $100.00. Then i said no it only COSTS $20.00. Then he said yes, but we need extra money for vacation and since they are going with us just make it $40.00. So I agreed to do that so we could have some extra on vacation and they could spend it there.

Then the very next day is when he went to the ENILs son to get the car fixed and paid him over the amount agreed upon to repair the car. When i asked him why he gave him extra because i thought we needed the extra for vacation (hence the reason he would not let me spend it on the kids), he just said oh it was a tip for Christmas.

And what i mean by not allowed is that he did not want me to spend it.

It seems to me that my H is ALWAYS more concerned about getting the approval of others and making others happy before me and the kids.

He will say that he does not want us to do something or spend money or whatever and then turn around and do the same thing or spend the money or whatever for people like the ENIL and the guy that is cheating on his wife, and his co-workers in his office (who have only been his co-workers since May 2008).

It seems everyone else comes first and then me and the kids. For me it is the opposite, him and the kids come first and then everyone else.

I think this goes back to the "extraordinary care" that he seems to not be able to give to our marriage. He really never has given our marriage "extraordinary care" and though it has always bothered to some extent. It really bothers me since the A.

I know this may not be the correct waaay to think, but i feel since he had an affair i am "entitled" to that "extraordinary care" he however, i do not think, knows how to do that.

It seems that his happiness comes before ANYTHING in his life and he is not willing to change if it will mean he has to give up behaviors that he thinks he should not have to.

SC;
Wow, what a post- longtime lurker- new poster here.
You are getting good advice. For what it is worth, here is my "2 cents":

1. Read "The Dance of Anger". This book has been published for over 2 decades (maybe three) and it shows you how pent up anger (at your H and other family/non family members) makes you ill.
I am serious, I had HUGE "letting go" issues- it took a few years and I read that book many times--but it finally sank in.

It has helped with the PTSD and the anxiety. Also letting go-- not for his sake- but mine and my kids.

2. I think you are at this stage early, but on this board I have read about "betrayed spouse buyers remorse". That means that there is a backlash in the BS spouses feelings about the recovery/marriage between years 3-5.

At first the BS puts 100% into recovery- then suddenly it slaps them in the face "What did I really sign myself up for?". There is often a huge ammount of regret/remorse/anger and pent up frustration that seems to surface at this time. Understand it for what it is.

This is a normal part of recovery (for some people). In fact- there is a number quoted on one of these posts --backed with documentation- that says MOST betrayed spouses "throw in the towel" in this 3-5 year mark-- Surpizing the he)) out of the WS!

I totally believe it- it happened to me (the "forget this cr*p" feeling-- BUT I had an idea it may be coming-- so I try to ride out those negative feelings-- as part of MY personal recovery.

To lighten things up:

3. As far as the good looking women and flirting- I know what you mean. Back in my day I was attractive- I always had a man somewhere- between 12 and 200 who was willing to speak with me. I had many a nasty girlfriend stare bullets at me- just because her boyfriend made some comment to me!- and I quit a coffee house job because I did not like the way some men tried to monopolize my time (and the owner told me to "just be nice" to them- yuck!) I was young and clueless and shy at the time.

As I get older, this happens less, ah so is life! My sister was a "Jane", I saw first hand how she and I got different treatment.

Now, My H does not, and never has, given a rats a$$ about men fliritng with me. Sometimes I wonder about that. Maybe it is because I am truely clueless, and when someone sends me a drink (yah, it has happened) I wake up and look around for the first time like "who the heck?!?!?".

BUT if it bothered him- I would take steps to correct it.


Maybe you should check out IC. Find where your fears are coming from. No, it is not obvious as you may think.-- Sometimes you must look inside, find out what your instincts and habits are, and change the root thinking behind them.

You are getting good advice here-- keep reading.