I usually don't participate in these type threads ... too much empahsis is based on the therorhetical, while "reality" is disregarded.

Dr. Harley's "THEORIES" sound good and no doubt work in some situations, but in my time here, I've not witnessed any amazing RESULTS achieved from their implementation.

Mrk, you've done an excellent job of describing some of the differing situations and personality types that we've encountered, but its all just a type of mental maturbation when it comes to dealing with real life WW's.

AND FOR THE RECORD ... there is a HUGE difference in WW's vs. WH's, and for those who like to quote Dr. Harley so much, you have to look no farther than to see how his advice differs based on the sexes to see that a REAL DIFFERENCE exists. As for myself, I just look at the terrible situations that come to this board everyday to realize that there is an OBVIOUS difference in BH/WW's scenarios.

In general, WH's are "opportunists", while WW's place much more significance (usually romantic) in their extramarital activities. For those exceptions that occur, it is easy to recognize and discuss, evaluate and advise accordingly.

However, the bottom line is that BH's don't follow the Plans in actual practice. They do some half-baked, personal interpretation of what they "think" is best and invariably FAIL. They are pathetic lost souls who just flounder along in limbo he11 and either lose everything or accept crumbs to remain M'd to someone completely unworthy of the effort and pain they've expended.

In almost EVERY situation, the BH's who succeed are the ones who take IMMEDIATE AND DEFINITIVE ACTION.

They had a M worth saving, and a WW who was acting completely out of character and truly made a "mistake" in judgment that they immediately recognized or they rid themselves of a reoccurring cancer and move on with their lives.

I've used this quote before, but it really illustrates what we actually see here in real situations nearly everyday:


Until BH's STAND UP for themselves and demand respect from their WW's, they will continue to voluntarily evolve into marriages that lead them here.

I'm afraid all threads like this accomplish is to give false hope to BH's, who are at their most vulnerable. These men simply CAN'T follow complex plans in this state ... it needs to be kept simple and concise.

Based on my own experiences and the actual results I have witnessed here, real ultimatums and strong, immediate and decisives actions will lead to a MUCH higher percentage of truly recovered M's for BH's than implementation of Plan's A & B as actually practiced in real life situations.

There actually isn't a huge leap from ultimatum and Plan A. With the ultimatum, you are saying stop the affair or out the door NOW. In Plan A, you are saying the same thing, but you are giving the WS a chance to demonstrate and proove that they are stopping the A. A correctly executed Plan A contains both the carrot and the stick. The carrot is meeting any ENs possible and eliminating LBs. The stick is NOT protecting the WS from consequences of the A, which can involve kicking them to the curb. Telling the WS that this M will be over if the A doesn't end is certainly part of the stick of Plan A. It's how you deliver the message that can turn it into an LB.

Too many BS's show up here and bend over backwards to deliver the carrot of Plan A. Some won't even do the basics of the stick - how many active BS's have threads on page 1 right now who haven't even exposed? These ones seem to settle into a pattern of enabling their WS to cake eat.

I interpret Harley's discussion that Mel posted to mean that as soon as the WS settles into cake-eating, Plan B should be executed. Otherwise they get comfortable and sure enough, the BS is the bad guy once again for destroying that.

When I think about kick 'em to the curb, I think of the BS who, upon the moment of discovery decided the M was over and wants no part of any attempt at recovery. It is certainly within their right.

This is why I wrote the carrot/stick post in the first place.
I was frustrated with plan A being "plan nice" and "plan death by a thousand cuts".

I remember the week prior to my own D day. It was Christmas week. I was going out of my way to make sure Mr Pep felt loved, cared for, and pampered. We drove his truck around looking at Christmas lights and I took off my seat belt so I could slide over next to my husband and cuddle and whisper and nuzzle him. Two days later I discovered the tip of the iceberg of his unfaithfulness - and in the moment of trying to defend the indefensible, he said something so cruel to me, so cruel in fact that I have never repeated it on this forum.

My Plan A was BEFORE D day. I had been consistently loving toward him without knowing he was unfaithful. And this is something that needs to be considered when a BS is considering options. Sometimes Plan A can be just long enough to prepare Plan B.

If the BS has not been a love-busting spouse , make plan A short and sweet and then - kick their cake eating butt out the door. This is difficult enough without volunteering for 10 thousand more cuts.



That's my opinion anyway.

Dear MelodyLane,

I'm very glad you posted this just now, because the ideal length of Plan A has been a contentious subject on some threads.

My memory is that in SAA, Dr Harley recommends six months for men and slightly less time for women. The advice in this email supersedes that, but is not available to those not allowed to register on the Weekend forum. I clicked the link in your post for the full letter, and I was denied access, so cannot read it.

Would you please let us know the date of that correspondence? Also, is there any way that you can think of making it available for all to read at any time? Perhaps it could be pinned on the Plan A/B forum?

.... and I want to add - I was incapable of Plan A immediately after D day. Incapable. On the other hand, I was suddenly capable of the most love busting comments and ugly looks I had ever given anyone. I kicked him out to protect him.

However, the bottom line is also that most BH's aren't ready or able to "take immediate and definitive action". Plan A provides a method to achieve some similiar results while they process what is happening to them. In fact...the Plan A Plan B process is essentially an individual recovery guide for the betrayed spouse. If and when they do divorce...they get to the finish line healthier and with no regrets. If they save their marriage, they do so with more pride and more self-assurredness, demonstrated that they didn't have to bow up and draw some pre-pubescent line in the sand or beat anybody down to make their spouse return to the marriage.

Oddly, you use the word "succeed". Is that succeed at busting up the affair or recovering??? I have observed the "ultimatum'ers" struggle more with self-confidence and self-esteem issues in recovery than the Plan A'ers. Could be a self-inflicted doubt that they coerced their spouse back to the marriage instead of her choosing to return. Maybe they have "controlling" issues and have a hard time accepting that they lacked control for a period of time. I don't know. The "ultimatum'ers" that failed and divorced seem to suffer more from hurt, regrets and what-if's, their wounds apparent as they tend to run around telling other MEN how to be real MEN and how disparaging they tend to be, in general and often only slightly, towards woman.

On another note, there are many BH's that actually use Plan A to string things out a bit while they determined if they really want to save the marriage. I, for example, did Plan A and committed to being the best husband, father and individual I could be for as long as I remained married. I undertook Plan A and left the rest up to God. I turned it over to Him and figured I'd eventually be pretty happy with His result. It worked. I'm happy today (even going to get me a new AMERICAN CAR today).

To each his own. Pick a plan and execute it. I think Dr. Harley's plan(s) are the best in most situations. However, situations and individuals are unique [the plans aren't]...my wife would have been horrible at Plan A, let alone Plan B and I would have been a horrible WH that would have more likely responded to Plan FU better than Plan A. The other way around...recovery would have been a nightmare.

In sum...IMO, the only real weak decision is to do nothing or God forbid, for a BH to move out on his wife and kids.

Mr. Wondering

Sugarcane, it was posted last June, 2008:

Mr.W,

It's obvious that we have differing perspectives and experiences. Since there really is no "one size fits all" approach, it is very likely that we are both right and both wrong, depending on the individual circumstances and personalities.

In all honesty, the more that I'm here, the more I realize that I'm likely just wasting my time, because from my perspective, those BH's that "GET IT", don't really need my help since they are usually posting about what they've ALREADY DONE. While the one's that don't "GET IT" likely never will, because they simply aren't wired to take action themselves ... and FWIW, "improving" yourself, while allowing your WW's A to continue IS NOT taking action.

You can't make "chicken salad" out of "chicken [censored]", ya'know.

Also, the more that I'm here in the infidelity forum, the more obvious it is that the BEST advice for nearly EVERY newly BH is to hire the best attorney they can afford and proceed directly to Plan D. Even Dr. Harley admits that would be his approach if confronted with adultery in his own M.

I see a lot of good in this website ... it provides a language for couples to discuss complicated marital issues that many struggle with ... it also provides some good tactics for breaking up an A for those strong enough to execute them, but in the end, the M will succeed or fail based on the individuals involved and their committment to each other.

I'll share what I don't like about this.

The BS who may appear to be "feeling okay" after 6 months (or longer) of Plan A is functioning in GIVER MODE. This is far too long, in my opinion, and resentments will be building up, even if underneath the "okay" veneer.

Witness Aphelion. From skeptic to cynic thanks to a very prolonged "GIVER" period of time without his needs being met.

Plan A for months and months is a freeloader/renter agreement.
I do not believe for one minute this leads to recovery of a HEALTHY marriage.

If anyone has an example where this happened, please let me know.

I think Morterman's Plan A was fairly long - but plan B saved his marriage, and his sanity.

The problem I see with the "kick 'em to the curb" mentality is that it leads to absolutely no introspection on the part of the BH.

Sure, I can see an ultimatum working if the BH has been a model husband all along and WW is just out for sex, or thrills, or whatever. But I would think that in most cases, the BH has not been a model husband... that there has been at least some Love Busting on his part... simply because everybody Love Busts until they make the conscious decision to stop.

If the ultimatum succeeds, than the BH can have his pride intact, I guess, but how would he be able to be sure the WW came back for him, or simply because she enjoys her standard of living and doesn't want to mess with it? And, given that the only thing that has changed in the marriage has been that the BH gave an ultimatum, and the WW submitted to it, how is the marriage to really recover? The BH is making no changes in the way they deal with the WW... except perhaps to make even more Selfish Demands than they ever did before, because after all they are entitled to it. But how would the WW ever get to the point where she feels real remorse?

I dunno, Plan Ultimatum just seems to me like an exercise in brute force. Submit or die. I don't see how it would do anything other than encourage the BH to continue nursing the resentment caused by the affair, and the WW to continue nursing the resentment that made the affair possible in the first place. I don't see how it would lead to a better marriage.

From what I can tell, the only benefit of Plan Ultimatum is that the Betrayed Husband gets to salvage his ego. To me, a real man should be able to look past his ego and his pride in order to do the right thing.

When I discovered my wife was talking divorce with her friends... and talking to an ex-boyfriend... I suppose I could have laid an ultimatum on her. The problem for me was that I had not been an ideal husband... I'd been a pretty selfish and self-absorbed husband... and I was able to recognize that right away. If I'd laid an ultimatum on her - stop talking to ex-bf, stop talking divorce behind my back, and start being a more dutiful wife - I'd be divorced today. Instead of taking that tack, I took steps to correct the bad behavior that I'd been guilty of. As it turned out, my wife was not having an affair... but I didn't know that at first. My initial discovery was ambiguous, and I faced the very real possibility that she was having an EA, and possibly a PA the last time she had seen ex-bf six months prior. I could have stormed in and laid down the law for her... but it would have backfired badly for me. That's my perspective, anyway.

I agree 100% and I was leery about sentence. However, he does say:


Which tells me that he is not recommending variations for those he is not working with.

The key in that post is that extensions are guided by Dr Harley. I seriously doubt he would EVER counsel someone to make Plan A a WAY OF LIFE and stay in Plan A for YEARS.

The problem we have is that conflict avoiders will ABUSE Plan A to avoid conflict. I don't think for a minute that is what Dr Harley intends with that sentence, though. Plan A seems to be a MAGNET for every conflict avoider to use as a cover to do nothing.

We have ppl here, like you say, who have been in Plan A for YEARS who are so beaten down and bitter and cynical that they are definitely in a very unhealthy place. They have trained their spouses to mistreat them. I read their posts and suspect they drink quite a bit, which wouldn't surprise me. It takes a lot of booze to drown out that much gall.

EGG ZAK LEE when Plan A is soooooooooooooo important.

I agree with this very much and am glad you made this point. In my case, I didn't really give my H an ultimatum, I just kicked him out. I had just got married and his affair was NOT the result of unmet needs! It was the result of his shabby, low character. I had made a dreadful mistake in my choice of a husband. I didn't want a bum for a husband so I wanted to end the marriage.

Kicking him out shocked him awake and motivated him to make major changes in himself. It worked out for the best.

But this is not the case in many affairs that come here. Many are long term marriages with kids, etc, and there has been big problems in the marriage. Kicking the spouse out would likely end the marriage. And that is ok if that is what the BS WANTS, but many do not want that. If they don't want that, then this would probably be a stupid strategy that would throw the WS into the arms of the OP.

MyRev -

I have learned that my words have helped countless lurkers. I am certain yours have too.

Dear Mel,

Thank you for looking up and posting these details.

I'm sorry to keep on about it, but I have not seen Dr Harley specifically make the 3-4 weeks stipulation in any of the Q&A columns. I have read them all again recently. He certainly makes it clear that Plan A is stressful for the BS and that Plan B should be adopted to protect the BS.

My interest here is only in clarity for the BS (and for people like me trying to interpret the materials to help new posters avoid the mess I made of my own situation).

I think it's possible to see that, as Dr Harley says that

[*]Plan A has an effect on the BS,
[*]that this must be monitored carefully and
[*]that Plan A should be stopped when the LB or mental health begins to suffer

that Plan A could be as short as one day and as long as the BS can cope with it. However, if the books and web site materials (available to all, unlike the radio broadcasts, MB weekends or Weekend forum) suggest that six months is a reasonable time, the impression can be that 6 months is the ideal to aim for, and that 4 weeks falls woefully short of this.

I'd just like to see this clear advice, which differs from that in SAA, placed here so that we can all refer to it. Do you think that there is a way of achieving this?

Thank you for your time on this.

Thanks, you may be right ... I'm just kind of down myself right now (nothing marital related), and there seems to be an excessive amount of weak BH's that are active on the forum at the present time that have been beaten down by their WW's to the point where they are paralyzed by the fear of their WW's reactions.

For those of us who have experienced this nightmare, its just so frustrating to see them going through this, coupled with the well-meaning, but misplaced advice they cling to in "hopes" of improving their situation without conflict.

Yes, I agree.

CONFLICT is necessary for recovery.

This is not the same as ultimatum.

Oh, I agree COMPLETELY.

While I am a big proponent of ultimatums ... there is a right way and a wrong way to issue them. Also, ultimatums are not the ONLY way to achieve the goal of breaking up the A.

My problem lies with those who do NOTHING to help themselves, and those posters who foster such lack of actions, with the misguided notions that improving yourself alone will bring about the desired results.

Definitive ACTION causes CONFLICT, and CONFLICT kills fantasies, but I'm preaching to the choir, aren't I???

My suggestion would be to refer back to this thread where he specifically says 3-4 weeks in that post. He is pretty clear in that post.

That's OK - remember the lurkers are reading and learning ....