Oh, BF, I feel for you so much. Big, big hugs from me to you. It's awful that feeling of hate. I remember so well one night when he was provoking me and being so sarcastic and sneery that I wanted so badly to hurt him that it scared me. As it is I hit him with a t-shirt that I happened to be folding at the time. Maybe your WH's position is not so very different from mine after all, just the way they are expressing it is different. Neither of them wants to make a firm move in either direction, either away from us or towards the OW because they don't want to close down one choice. Well, he will have to. I think you need to go darker if you can because he is managing to get to you even despite your best efforts and it's not doing your LB any good.
Hang in there, you're doing so well.
Here are a few more hugs. ( ) ( )

Tully xxx

Thank you, tully, I really need to hear that and get some hugs!
I do need to go darker -- its hard because my two youngest see him a lot and share things with me. I just need to block it out and not ask, but its hard not to ask kids about what they did for two days.
I also reread the post by Pepperband about why affair marriages fail and that reinforced some of what I know, but don't always believe.
I wonder about how and why WH are so mean? How does that make any sense? He says none of this is about me and that I was fine as a wife, etc, and he "owns" that he hurt me, but he has been hurtful and cruel -- some things he has Never been, until this affair.
Maybe some of the veterans can answer this: Why are WS's often so mean on top of the hurt they have caused? How can they say they want to be our friends and then lash out at us?
BF439

BF, I honestly think they think they are not being mean. They think they are behaving reasonably and that we are being unreasonable. I know, I know, it's hard to believe that they could be so obtuse and blind but somehow they think these horrible things are OK to say. In some wierd, twisted way I used to find my WH's horribleness a kind of consolation because it felt like a Jeckyll and Hyde situation because the WH and the H were such different people. That's no excuse though. It's up to him to turn his back on the addiction that is turning him into a nasty person and ask you to help him but the decision has to come from him. Just protect yourself from his damaging words and actions until that decision is made.

BF,

I haven't posted to you before but I've followed your thread. What Tully is saying is exactly right. You need to really watch your LB at this point. Unfortunately, I didn't keep a close enough watch on mine and then suddenly I was done. It hit me so quick that it surprised me. I just had a day where WW pushed me to far with her fogginess and there was no coming back. I've been posting to Tully for a while now about this and thought you should hear it as well. A poorly executed Plan B where there is still drama causes continued withdrawals from your LB and then one day you will end up where I did. Tully is exactly right....you need to go darker. Focus on yourself! Spend time with good friends and family! Take care of yourself! Never mind what WH is doing. Because it really doesn't matter what he is doing unless he is willing to meet your requirements for returning to the M.

Mindshare

bf,

Waywards are so mean and cruel because they have convinced themselves of their marital re-write. They HAVE to in order to justify what they're doing. They've invested great emotional energy into believing all their made-up stuff...otherwise they could not believe they are good people just "caught" in a terrible situation.

Everybody wants to think well of themselves. When we act opposed to our values, and there's a certain payoff, our choices are: to STOP behaving that way to remain true to our values (but it FEELS so good, we don't want to) OR to change it around in our head so that what we're doing ISN'T wrong. Real mental gymnastics, but it happens all the time. And not just regarding affairs.

Google "cognitive dissonance."

Here's a quote I've had on my wall for many years that helps explain it another way:

"Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm--but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it, because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves."~T.S. Eliot, The Cocktail Party

ETA: Oh, for heaven's sake! The title of my quote was edited...the word means an alcoholic beverage! C*cktail Party!

And bf, I absolutely agree with tully and mindshare. You've got to find a way to go darker, or YOU'LL want to file for divorce. Notice that WH has NOT filed. Why do you suppose that is? Hmmm?

Do NOT ask your kids what they did when with WH. (Are they offering up what goes on, or do you find out because you ask?) Seems it mostly involves DS11, since the other two don't want to deal much with WH. If DS11 needs to talk to you about it, that poses another difficulty. Perhaps family therapy? But, boy, you'd have to find a therapist who understands your need NOT to have TMI on WH...

Maybe Steve Harley? This HAS to have come up before.

I didn't have young children though this ordeal, so I'm kinda stabbing here.

Right Here Waiting

Hey, RHW, its good to hear from you!

"And bf, I absolutely agree with tully and mindshare. You've got to find a way to go darker, or YOU'LL want to file for divorce. Notice that WH has NOT filed. Why do you suppose that is? Hmmm?"

I honestly believe that he is waiting until after the holidays, which was an earlier discussion we had, before I had found out in October that he had never cut contact with OW. When I thought he just was done with the marriage and that the affair had been over for months (when it wasn't) we discussed a lot of options. When I found out that the affair never stopped, all bets were off for me.
Or, he is still hoping to talk me into mediation, which will be less expensive.

Because I have been stunned so many time by what my H has done as a WH, nothing would suprise me at this point, but I don't know if that's my own fog.
There are times I just want to file and say F.U.! No one treats me this way!!! But I can't believe that the good man I married isn't still there and still loves me...

I can work on going darker -- are there any suggestions out there? We communicate now through the IM on just issues of kids and bills. Also, I'm working on not talking to any of his family (unless they call) and keeping any of those conversations focused on the kids.
I think my LB is draining and part of it is because I want him to want me back and reach out and he doesn't seem concerned at all to not have me in his life. How much more rejected can a BS feel?!
I think the holidays are getting to me...
BF439

You're right, bf. The holidays, our anniversaries, birthdays, are especially rough in these circumstances. Once the worst has passed (and of course, it hasn't yet for you), we BS's come out knowing, beyond any doubt, that we are incredibly strong. We maintained our sanity, even when it was pushed to the breaking point.

Unlike you, I believe that your WH does NOT want a D. I was about to tell you why I think that, but Sugar said it beautifully in a recent post to tully. Please go check out tully's thread. Sugar is right on the money.

Thanks, RHW, it does give me hope to get the insights of the veterans. I know I am not thinking totally clear about things either right now.
I imagine that WH is telling people that this is the best thing and all he wants to do is be the best dad he can be and respecting my boundaries, but a lot of that is his standard looking like the "good guy" mode (even when he's the rat)!
I did read Sugar's post earlier and it got me thinking, too. It's just hard to imagine that he would want back after he got an apartment and furniture and a Christmas tree (with all new ornaments, etc). Sounds like someone starting over to me...
BlahHHHHH!
BF439
Going Deeper and Darker!!!!

bf,

"It's just hard to imagine that he would want back after he got an apartment and furniture and a Christmas tree (with all new ornaments, etc). Sounds like someone starting over to me..."

Let me tell you a little story. My FWH actually DID start over, although without my knowledge or consent.

He got his own apartment BEFORE he found OW. I know this to be true. Lost his job in a buyout, looked fruitlessly for 15 months, and jumped on the first job offer he got--4 hours from home.

The job loss put him in the pity pot big time. Depression time. Which led to a wayward form of thinking. Follow me here...

Because he knew he wasn't at fault for the job loss, HE couldn't be at fault for our M not being what he wanted (not that he told ME he was unhappy). "Hey! This unhappiness is all HER fault!"

Yeah, I was just "the wrong woman" for him. Short leap to justifying leaving me for this new position--and a new life--far away. Didn't divulge that he was leaving me . "I NEED a job! This will only be temporary" was his bull**** explanation for what was really just walking out. I didn't learn this till AFTER I discovered the A, which he began 6 months later, not surprisingly, with an enterprising divorcee at the new office.

So, bf, my point is, it doesn't matter whether--or how--your WH gets into this "starting over" mindset. When he discovers--and he WILL--that this new life doesn't fix what's only HIS to fix, he will be horribly distressed, confused, and unhappier than he's ever been. THAT is when he will begin to see that you are the lighthouse, the guiding light home. That will also be when his REAL "starting over" begins.

Because only THEN will he start to see that he needs to work on HIMSELF. And in time, he will love you for keeping the light on long enough for him to see it and begin the way back.

At least, that's how it's worked for so many of us here. I pray it will be how it evolves for you too.

Right Here Waiting

BF --

You asked the question "why is he so mean?"

I can tell you why.

He wants you to fall out of love with him.

Its easier for him to leave if you are happy for him to go. Its easier for him to leave, if you AGREE with the decision to split. Its easier for him to leave if you are angry, hurt, and kick him out. If you are an angry woman, its EASIER for him to justify what he's done.

He does not want you to fight for him. It makes him feel guilty. It makes him feel bad.

In his foggy brain all he is thinking about is how he can end the marriage as quickly as possible so that he can be with OW.
And so sometimes, when the opportunity presents itself -- he will say hurtful, mean, out-of-character things designed to hurt you. So that you will stop loving him and stop fighting for him and stop making him feel HORRIBLE about what he is doing.

Don't help him. Don't give him the easy way out.
Make him feel the pain.

Of course, what Lexxy says is true. But he wants YOU to file for D! That way, he can blame YOU--to himself, to his family, etc.

Don't fall for it.

Wow, everyone, thank you! I do feel so much better! Just becasue he is making life choices from a foggy place doesn't mean that is where he will stay.
I tend to be impatient by nature and this is a huge test of patience.
I will continue to focus on me; not worry about what he's doing because I have to trust that at some point the magnitude of what he's done will hit him...

Also, thanks RHW for all the posts and Lexxy, I think you hit the nail on the head for him. Even this summer he was so back and forth and his family especially were like, does he want you to kick him out? I think he has wanted me to end things to make it easier on him. Sorry, Charlie!
BF439

Atta girl. We BS's sometimes get caught in our OWN fog, ya know?

Did it ever occur to you that all this offers an opportunity to learn patience? Took me a loooong time to see it, being very impatient myself.

Patience was one of the very things I NEEDED to learn to be more fully grown up. More fully my own person. I avoided all the lessons (God, the Universe, whatever) sent me my whole life (58 years!) till it was non-negotiably REQUIRED to get what I wanted most...a reclaimed and renewed M.

Today I see it as one of the most valuable lessons I have ever learned.

Hi BF - I haven't dropped by for a couple of days and I am sorry you have been hurting. I hope that you have adopted the strength from your mentor's here and that you are feeling stronger today.

The holidays are horrible for us, especially this close to our Plan B's starting. But, you know what? There are many people right now who are suffering through the holidays with people that hurt them and don't love them. Be thankful that this year you are able to surround yourself with people who 100% love and adore you and want to see you happy. Your family is paramount at this time and you don't want to be around a WH. You need an improved H or nothing.

I can't remember who said this on MB, but I LOVE this quote:

"The trick is to not let problems prevent you from enjoying the blessings."

Trying2Live has some great advice for keeping distance from WH with children involved. Establish and enforce your bondaries - they are to protect you!

Thanks, 2M2L -- I am feeling better now. One, because my children are home -- I hate it when they are gone with him.
Secondly, all the info re: how WS's think and how they can be completely distorted and still turn things around. And finally, even if they don't turn things around, the magnitude of their choices will come to them.
So maybe I'm feeling the pain now, a little (or a lot) every day, but it will hit WH at some point. There is no real happy ending for him without him going through the sh@t, too!
Got to go pick up DD12 -- be back on-line soon!
BF439

Ok, I'm back!
Tonight is a night where I feel stronger and feel like I can make it through this. Part of that is having my kids here. I feel like when they are with WH, there is some kind of stamp of approval on his choices. That's one of my fears is that life will go on, I will be fine, so the assumption is that what he did is ok. Again, ends justify the means -- just like the affair to begin with...

I'm trying to be more comfortable with expressing how I feel with the kids without it being a big heavy convo. For example, DD4 has said, "mommy, your the hero and daddy is the meany!" I'm not sure where that comes from, but with her, I'll say I love daddy and wish he'd decide to come home, but for now he's a stinky poo-poo [censored]! She seems to enjoy that!

With DS11, I'll try and hear only a little of what he does with dad, but interject when the conversation lends itself to make appropriate commentary (like during vocabulary homework, he needed another word for the prefix, "im" -- I said "immoral, like affairs are immoral!" He laughed and so did I!

So it is a relief to be able to recognize what we are going through and still smile. Yes, I'll be fine, but I still would like a healthy husband and since I'm married, that would be my WH if he pulled his head out his butt!!!

Thanks all of you for your wonderful help! Its so incredible to be able to come here, share all my insecurities and, instead of hearing, yes, that sucks, move on, I hear, yes, thats what its like to be a BS! Now what are you going to do to take care of yourself in this situation! So much more powerful! Being on the losing end of an affair already feels so helpless, but to have people say, yes, it sucks, but there is a way to recover yourself and maybe your marriage, it so powerful!!!!

I think I will take the kids to the closest aquarium (cincinatti) this winter -- we were going to go last spring, but , gasp, WH did not want to do anything during spring break except go screw his OW!!! Surprise, suprise!!!

BF439

Making some progress on NC and setting limits with WH. WH continues to try to contact DS11 and DD12 via cell phones -- which would be fine if it were just to say "hi" but it tends to be more about him tying to set things up with them or using them to communicate witout going through the IM.
DD12 talked to him tonight and he actually said one of his reasons for calling the cells (and saying hey, have your brother call me -- so innapropriate!) is that I hung up on him ONCE -- when we were in PB and I happened to be in the middle of a zillion things!!!)
Still, no recognition that he is not going to get to run this show!!! He left; we are all hurt and he is just going to understand that his relationshio is compromised and will not recover until he RECOVERS!!!!

AAARRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!
BF439

I can totally relate with the boundary issue of H calling the kids and planning the visits. H calls straight to my DD17's cell or asks DS10 and DS10 is nervous to say anything.

I am currently tightening up this area. I am done with being nice and letting the boundary be soft. He is living with OW and there a'int nuttin soft bout that! So time for a taste of his own medicine. Yes every time I have to set a boundary it literally FREAKS ME OUT! Its like I get ready for the anger crap.

The 1st 5 months before I found SAA I had no plan and H was super angry so its like I know how HE will react by previous behavior. By the way they know that WE will react the same way to their behavior, they can COUNT on it-we are predictable this way. They have known us for a long time and they know us more closely than anyone else and they absolutely know where we will be soft, where they can come through cracks.

I am now like whatever I am setting up a boundary and I will do it afraid if I have to. I cannot be motivated by my fear of losing the marriage. If he's gonna file papers on me its not going to be because I am setting my boundaries its because the bonehead was gonna do it anyway, so whatever go do it but I am not gonna stop setting my boundaries. I mean what have I got to lose?? LOL

So the last few days the IM's are working on confirming the dates he can see the kids, and basically letting him know hey these are YOUR days and these are MOM's days-BTW this is what the courts would do if we go into divorce so might as well give em a taste of it.

My IM's will send him these dates, for example Monday 2-7, Thursdays 2-7, Saturdays 12-8, and rotating Sundays. Now when H calls instead of bypassing me I am going to give them a copy of this information. So now I am telling the kids when H asks if he can visit they are to say, let me look at the list mom had the IM's email you and see if its your day or her day. I have told them that if its my day they are to say oh sorry dad our day with you isn't until tomorrow or Thursday or whatever. If your kids are old enough they can look themselves and H cannot bypass you and the blame wont go onto the kids as I am the one who scheduled the visits. I think this can work for you to.

Anyways good luck, tighten up where ever you can, don't make it too easy and don't be predictable, he's counting on it.

Ok, so here's my update:
IM sent phone request (please do not contact kids via cell for visitation or to pass on info -- use house phone and if they are not there leave a message). So, for all of you out there setting those limits, keep it up, and thanks, T2L, for the encouragement. I have used your phrase that you used with your DD17 with DD12 (IDK) for when WH asks her too much or tries to set things up with her.

Apparently, prior to all this he called house phone and hung up on me, and sent an apology via the IM! Not sure what that's about -- is he that concerned about me or PB? That doesn't sound like the typical arrogance I've been getting!

Otherwise, its been a quiet day -- busy at work and lots to do tonight. I only have three more days of work until my two week Christmas break!

Having a great time with the pug and looking forward to another night with the kids!

BF439