I have been here a long time, and I have read a few BS's stories (in fact only a couple come to mind), who due to sufficient personal recovery and/or not being able go into a true Plan B, have proven it is possible to maintain 'contact' with a WS, even pre-plan D.... based solely on the belief that, bottom line, we all have a right to choose who and what we want in our life... even if it is destructive and unhealthy (as so many WSs around here have proven :RollieEyes:)

I do recognize that both WS and I took 'each other' for granted, did not pay enough attention to each other, did not take better care of ourselves... the lesson has cost a high price for both us.... in some ways even more so for WS because he hasn't taken really the time to 'look at himself'....too busy in laland.... and you know what? That's HIS choice, and there is nothing 'I' can do about it... if anything, I have learned THAT much around here.

What I want to explore, even given all the damage done, are their boundaries I can set, should WS want to and be able to respect them, where I can be 'comfortable' enough to exchange directly with WS, without having to place 'my trust' in his hands, and work with him....AS HE IS...

Have I learned to listen enough to my 'inner voice' and can I place 'my trust' in its hands?

Maybe yes, and maybe no. That is what I want to see, and there is only one way to find out.

I will certainly look for your advice and support to keep me in line so that my 'brain' does not compromise.

My reply to WS, suggesting we talk tonight:

"I will not be home tonight, let me know until what time I can call, and if not, we will find another time."

Given how I feel now, I realize that after D-day, I was such a basketcase I was not up to doing a proper Plan A, I am pretty sure I was a 'doormat'. Where I am at right now, where I don't feel 'dependent' on WS, I don't feel 'threatened' by his choices nor the consequences, given the distance - physical and otherwise, I don't HAVE to talk to WS.... I am CHOOSING to talk to WS... (as is he)

There is all the difference...in one little word!

Oops...we were cross-posting..

Hi CL,


Yes, CL, I could get 'hurt'...so I appreciate your concern.

..I don't think I am saying that I 'accept his A and will live with in it in harmony' by choosing to talk to WS.... I don't see the need to see each other (unless there is an emergency concerning the boys), nor do I want to see OP alone or together with WS (they are most certainly not welcome in my home!), and I don't need to approve of his choices. In fact, I am taking this step to enable me to have LESS contact with WS in the future once the separation of assets has been resolved.

I am choosing to consider the A as 'something' we don't agree on.

.. will it be possible to have a discussion and come to some 'mutual' understanding, ie. separation of assets, care for the boys,etc. without taking into account the emotional damage done by A?

I won't know until I try.

It will surely test how well I now take into account my 'inner voice' and can identify emotions trying to 'surface' up.

I do want to 'protect me' somehow, though, and to help with the fact that I am dealing with a WS, whose self-centeredness make it almost impossible for him to be aware or care when they are being cruel. as guidelines to the exchange(s), I have proposed to WS the following:

- participation in exchange is to take place within spirit of 'choice' and not 'obligation': so at any time, either one of us can terminate it without explanation (to help avoid lovebusters)

- both of us be allowed to express thoughts, ideas, etc. while the other listens, without judgement or criticism (to help feel validated)

- questions are allowed... but other will not feel obliged to respond...either at all, or offer a reply....in the future!
(reduce expectations and stress to...perform!)

If WS is willing to talk to me within this framework, I am willing to take a chance and talk to him.

...worse scenario? I risk failing and getting hurt again... :RollieEyes: ...just for a chance to say, once again, that I leave 'no stone unturned'!

Luna's attempts at working with... WHAT IS!

CL, I am glad you are 'calling me' on this....it forces me to clarify the HOWs, WHYs, WHAT... and that is very very helpful.

Given that it's Xmas, I don't plan for it to happen before the weekend... so this will give me time to see if it's still something I think is worthwhile doing...

Luna,

I'm struggling with the same thing. I know that I should contact him to settle this without going throug attys, but I was afraid I would be hurt.

But, when I think about how he looked in court, I didn't feel attracted to him like I thought I would. No butterflies etc. I saw a person who was not very fit, whose hair and moustache had turned white. The moustache didn't seem to be trimmed either, and he wasn't dressed all that well. I realized that if someone had introduced me to him, and I didn't know him, I probably wouldn't give him a second look. It may sound shallow, but to some extent PA is one of my top 5 ENs.

So, can I negotiate with him now? I think I can. The reason that I hesitate is that he is still very hostile, and still telling lie after lie.

So, if you can talk to your WH without hurting yourself, I say go for it. He is certainly willing. And you do have a very good point. If we have contact with them now, it sets us up to have less contact in the future. I guess I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Hi CL,


...as you should be, CL. I don't take this lightly... for me the state of a WS is that of a TAKER gone haywire.... meaning, WS in order to 'supposedly' be happy, IS prepared to take decisions that do mean BS will 'suffer'...


Just realizing THAT may have been worth the trip to Court... I think the 'distance' provided by Plan B allows BS to SEE a WS more 'objectively', and it looks like it's what happened in your case....


CL, don't forget....it's a two-way street...

..and if you find him hostile, he may still be a very 'defensive' mode... if that is the case, the risk of being hurt increases....nothing personal, CL, it's because an 'exchange' does entail some 'looking into the mirror' on WSs part... and some WSs really just don't want to do that.

It's something to think through very carefully before approaching WS with the idea.

The only reason I am considering it is because WS has always been 'open to it'...he may very well change his mind when he realizes that some self-inventory is in order....


Necessity sometimes serves a purpose and helps us be 'open' to explore possibilities or be willing to take 'risks' that normally one wouldn't.... for me, had I found the legal process to be more effective and less expensive...not sure I would have seriously considered taking the risk of talking to WS!

...and don't forget, it has been a long process for me to get to this place... a year ago I didn't even want to consider.... mediation...let alone to have a conversation with WS!

....and the last time I did talk to WS, it DID take a lot of energy to stay on top of my 'emotions'...hopefully that will not be case all the time.

We shall see.

Merry Christmas Luna,

this process has been hard on you as well, not to mention soul searching and willing to go to those places and look at YOU.

This HARD work has brought you to a place of CHOICE... something the A took from you.

How does it feel to have it back?

Ah, this is so true. When you are forced into a crisis of this nature, it's very hard on you. And, for some reason, wayward spouses are shocked when the betrayed spouses get a backbone and fight for themselves. I think the betrayed are also more willing to look at themselves and to work on themselves. Many of us need to do it so we can survive the ordeal. It is a way of healing ourselves.

It took me a year or more to simply be able to believe what was going on and to find 'an even keel' because I was so blindsided and hurt by xh's choices. Then, I rested emotionally for a while. When I was able to realize my life had become insane and I needed to move on, I filed for a divorce and, a year later, it was over with. That's a long time. By the time it reached that point, I was glad to get him out of my life. It wasn't easy to see who he had become. Or, was he always that person and I didn't see it? By this time, it didn't matter....I was into regaining my life.

I struggle with this one so much. I never, ever, would have guessed that WH was capable of so much betrayal and lies. And to be so hostile! Did I just not see it?

Maybe it is just as simple as the A changed him. I think he looked at OP as being everything that I am not, and began to hate me. My cousin recently told me that he didn't realize how bad his M was until she left him, and he met and M someone else. Maybe that's how our WH's feel. The OP offers something that we couldn't, so maybe they are truly happy where they are.

I'm just going to suck it up and work on my own life. That's just not so easy when all of this legal crappola hangs over your head. Easy for them to leave a M emotionally, but certainly not legally. It's good that we have laws that prevent WS's from leaving the BS with nothing.

:MerryChristmas:

Hope you had a wonderful day!

Hi Queenie, Cind, CL, Bugs,

Thanks for your comments and dropping by.

Spending the holidays 'quietly'...plan to visit my mom with DS13 so I will be off the Board for a few days.


Actually, Queenie, it's more like 'it comes and goes'. Very unstable, and very much out of my comfort zone. Just trying to go 'with the flow', and trusting that it's part of the process.


Cind, that sounds about right...and at this point, it looks like I am getting tired of how often 'pain' seems to come up, and it's forcing me to consider other ways to look at life/run my life so as to make it easier on me emotionally.

I guess with any 'new' way of doing things, hesitation and doubt at times is part of the process. I sure hope so. I sometimes feel like I am 'lost'...it's one thing questioning one's beliefs and way of doing things, it's another thing finding what 'healtier' ways to replace that with... so I am struggling.

Just the fact that I am considering 'exchanging' with WS when not so long ago it was out of the question makes me wonder....where am I headed with it?

As I said...I am counting a lot on that 'inner voice' being loud enough...and on my being able to 'hear' it.... and yet at times, I am feeling I am 'out of touch'...it's really weird, that's all I can say!

I am counting a bit on some of you here to keep me 'grounded'.


CL...I wouldn't 'assume' anything...and after seeing your WS in Court, can you really agree with the conclusion that he is 'happy'?

One thing I am trying to learn....to stick to the facts.... because one doesn't really know what's in someone's else head or heart.

Hope you are all somehow 'taking care' of yourselves this Holiday.

Just wanted to check how some of you deal with the 'feeling' that you should be further ahead than you are...and beat yourself about it?

Maybe I am just tired.... but I am hearing a little voice telling me and putting pressure on me to DO 'something'....ANYTHING...to move ahead....

I know that I am a better place than where I was a year ago...and two years... but it all seems to move so SLLLOWWWWLLLY.... at least, that't how it feels at this MOMENT...

I guess this, too, shall pass.

I don't like the feeling that's for sure.

Oh this is where I get to beat myself up great. Actually from what I hear My told me I was pathetic and no wonder people don't post to me.

Where that statement would have destroyed me once, it stung, I acknowledged the feeling and took comfort in what progress I had made.

Luna, we all deal with, survive this in our own way. At our own pace. I think Mimi used to get so frustrated with me when I compared myself to others' and where I think I should be.

Bottom line... are you better off than you were on D-day, have you moved since the summer in some areas... then each and everyday our journey takes it's own life as G-d leads it. Not our business. Our business is to be humble servants and follow his path to freedom and healness.

Hi Queenie,

Thanks for dropping by.

Yep...I WAS just tired. :twobyfour:

Doing much better today.

I don't think it was such a bad idea posting about the feelings I was feeling.... they are easier to assess if they are put 'out there' for everyone to see.

I am finding my rollercoaster ride a bit bumpy these days. and I am not sure exactly why...and that's just the way it is...for now.

Luna,

I'm so glad you are feeling better today. It is very difficult not to compare ourselves to others who have walked a 'similiar' path,,,,,,,,,,,,,but no matter how alike the wayward story can be, each situation IS unique, as all people are unique.

There is no RIGHT or WRONG in your own personal journey, as it is YOUR personal journey.

I spent a great deal of time thinking about what I "should" be thinking or feeling in comparison to others here, but then I realized that MY feeling are MY feelings. They aren't right or wrong, they sometimes just 'are', and that is OK.

You have to give yourself permission to be where you are at any given time.

The KEY is not to allow yourself to wallow in a particularly bad place for any significant amount of time. THAT is NOT ok!

Hope you are having a nice evening!

Hi Bugs,

Thanks for popping by and reconfirming that...no matter where we are at...it's OK, as it is our personal journey, no matter how things evolve for others.

We fall off the horse, so then, we get back on it!

No big deal...as you say, as long as we don't stay down toooooo long!

Bugs...Drac REALLY REALLY reminds me of my WS....especially his last stunt of carelessness! oye.....

Hey Luna, you doin' OK?

Good morning, Luna!

How u b?


Fox

Hi CL & Fox,

Just got back from a few days visiting Mom who has a big challenge ahead...loss of Dad...her partner for over 55 years!

I worked really hard at enjoying the 'moment' as holiday period is filled with triggers of 'happier' memories when both Dad and WS were also part of it.

So, all considered...had a good break...quiet evening ahead for welcoming 2009.

Looking forward to catching up on how some of you are all doing.

Winter is long up here. January and February can sometimes seem very long, so it will be a bit of a challenge.

I can't say I have had time to think about how to approach situation with WS. In principle, we are both open to having a conversation to discuss how best to handle assets, both hoping to minimize use of attorneys....and am I ready to open up 'some' direct communication lines?

I am a bit apprehensive about the idea of having a discussion with WS. Not sure how I can best prepare for it...mentally and emotionally....not sure if I am 'healed' enough yet. Guess I won't know 'til I try.

From what I gather...WS's new definition of being 'friends' is being available to help...WHEN POSSIBLE...meaning...no committments! ...maybe that's just as well...he may consciously be aware of his selfish state...that he can't be trusted....and he can't trust himself to stick with committments... I guess that's worth 'honesty' points in WS country! :RollieEyes:

Luna,

Honestly, I think the best thing for you to do is let WS think that you have "moved on." If communicating will save you money, I say do it and get it over with. Sure, maybe you will hurt for some time to come, but it isn't going to be anything like what you have already suffered. Do whatever you need to do to be able to get out of this triangle.

I am there now too. I'm sending WH a note this weekend offering to "git 'er done." I'm tired and feel so stuck in this limbo. It's time. For both of us....

Hi CL,


That would be my plan...what I don't know, if I am not really 'moved on', will I be able to FAKE IT until...? ...or breakdown?

Since it's January 1st...trying to set myself some goals, focus my energy on those, and continue learning to leave less and less mental space for WS...because I really do think and believe....the 'moving on' all happens 'between the ears' :RollieEyes:


Good luck, CL. At best he will be open to it, at worse you are still better off knowing that you 'tried' (yeah...well...as you said...it might hurt at bit...but at this stage, it may be worth it for the peace of mind)

What will help is to NOT lose sight of the fact that when dealing with a WS....the me,me,me,me is all over the place! Often I have been caught 'off guard' which is why Plan B and the protection it provided suited me just fine.

At this point, my situation may warrant taking somewhat of a 'risk' and see how far I can get in a discussion with a WS.

We shall see.