I have no objection to judging a person on their "body" of work. But you aren't doing that. This is much like a person saying Beethoven stunk because his 3rd symphony sounded awful. And further saying that you will not even listen to the 4th-9th because regardless of how they sound, the 3rd "prooves" he was awful. Judging people only based on their lowest point is bias and cynical.


I doubt that is required, but I'll try. Using studies and surveys and personal experiences to judge a person means you are not judging them based on their actions, you are judging them based on the actions of others.


This is the same thing I mentioned above. In the end, all you are saying is observe a person at their worst and this is their true nature. All other times you observe them are just a facade.

If I were to advise to new BH's don't pay any mind to the WS's A, think about your WS's at their best, and this is their true character, you would tell me I am silly. And I would agree.

The first is cynical and the later is naive. Neither approach is correct.

I want to make it very clear that I do not look down on anyone who is divorced or has left a bad marriage. Some of the greatest successes on this forum are divorced. That IS the definition of success in their situation. MEDC, I consider you a success, along with many other divorced ppl here. We have others who simply decided to leave and that is not a failure in any sense of the word. Oftentimes that is the best answer. I NEVER look down on anyone who did not stay in his marriage.

What I do question, as if anyone cares or needs my opinion - they don't! - is those that stay in bad marriages for years on end and allow themselves to be dragged down into the wayward sewer of life until they are damaged themselves. I can see no success in that. I see what happens to their minds. And it is not pretty. When I read their posts, I often suspect they are PUI. [posting under the influence] That tells me they are drowning the pain with booze or narcotics. Dr Harley developed Plan B to AVOID all that psychological and spiritual damage. Staying in abusive marriages causes psychological DAMAGE and that is a fact, Jack.

A Christian knows that you don't associate with evil lest you will be dragged down into the same sewer. I see it happening here on this forum. Good people being dragged into a sewer.


Some do. Many just put on a good act and underneath are the same sick, evil people they were before. [we usually spot them pretty quick] Others didn't have a damaged CORE in the first place. To them it was an aberration of character so there were no huge character flaws to deal with.

But take someone like ME. Whose core was rotten to the core. Rotted all the way through. A person who was taught that wrong is right. Whose moral philosophy of life was "if it feels good, do it" and damn the rest of you. It wasn't enough to fiddle around the edges, it took a massive internal change of my CORE. I had a living problem that was the result of a very sick mind. The only way to recover was to change the sick mind at the very core.

I believe that most serial cheaters fall into that category. Not so with many of the one-time cheaters we see here. I think it is a mistake to lump them all into the same category. Because I will take a guess here and state that the recovery rate of a serial cheater is about as low as that of alcoholics: 10%.

IMO, it is a great disservice to others here to lump them all in the same category and tell newcomers here that people don't change. Because that would be a lie. We have a multitude of successes here.

But I am very curious about why Aphelion tries to discourage people with all this misleading talk about how people can't change. He knows they do. Just because his wife has not - and he has my sympathy - does not mean that others don't. So I would also be interested to know why you do that here, Aphelion, and not on other boards. Why do it here at all? And why limit your stink bombs to MB?

IMHO, the vast majority of people don't make conscious decisions like this. As far as I am concerned, most people have a "first" consciousness and a "second" consciousness, when it comes to decision making.

The "first" consciousness is very child like. Very experiential. Try it, if it feels good, repeat, if it feels bad, stop. Over and over, meandering through life, trying this, trying that, measuring the results. No abstract thinking, no long term view. This forms habits, addictions, coping mechanisms. There is no "moral" govenor to this part. This is not people's core, its a "data gathering" engine.

The "second" consciousness is more adult like (or parent like). Abstract thoughts, longer term considerations. When I think about decision processes, I usually think about this area. When I think about can people change, I think about this area. This can overcome habits, addictions, coping mechanisms.

As childeren, we rely on our "first" consciousness for almost all our decisions. The experiences we have teach us to develop our "second" consciousness. As adults, (if we are mature), most of our decisions our made using our second consciousness. Most, is the key word. Because regardless of how mature we are, we still rely on our "first" consciousness at times. We do it even more so in times of stress.

I think many A's start out as decisions made from our "first" consciousness. (Probably many addictions, bad habits, and bad coping mechanisms as well) Bored on a business trip. Sit down next to somebody and start talking. Gosh, that felt good. Repeat. Esacalate. Gosh, that felt good. Repeat. Escalate.

Where it goes from there really depends on the individual. Some people have never "grown up". They really have no "second" consciousness. Some have it, but have temporiarly (or permanently) decided to ingnore it. (i.e. "I've lived my whole life making smart decisions, look where it got me) Some have very skewed "second" consciousness. (i.e. the end justifies the means). Some have completely functioning "second" consciousness, but have a distorted view of reality. (Nobody will be hurt by this.)

When you say it never occured to you to have an A, I generally think it means either you generally make your decisions with your "second" consciousness, (which is a good thing), or your "first" consciousness never stumbled accross trying it. Perhaps a bit of both.

Mel...just to be clear..although I am sure you already know this...I was not referring to you. I consider you to be person of character and class that is willing to accept people as they are...so long as they are genuine.

I do agree that SOME people change. While the majority may remain unchanged to their "black" core...that does not in any way tarnish those that have turned their lives around.

That is an excellent analogy.


Ah yes, the actions of others. I know that as a FWW, I really don't want to be told that I am absolutely going to recontact OM at the earliest opportunity simply because "Ozzie" did. One of the factors that made it possible for my marriage to recover was that my husband, through is own endeavors, found out that had I wanted to recommence the affair it would have been possible. Yet he was able to verify that there had been NC for a long time. I am very grateful that when my H reads about a FWW on this forum recommencing her affair that he has the sense to separate her actions from mine. And if he hears about some WW IRL he doesn't automatically assume that I am going to revert to the very worst I can be.


Rprynne, great points.

Aphelion, you have mentioned many times how many repeat adulterers you know. I wonder if the fact that you seem to have known, worked with and hung around (had beers with) so many adulterers hasn't affected you adversely.

Nearly all of your posts are of the "WS don't change" variety; at least in this thread your posts are germane. On other threads you are clearly stretching to get your point across, which gives rise to the thought that you may have an agenda, so to speak. But yet you remain with your wife while telling everyone to stay far away from adulterers, including those in recovered marriages. "Do as I say but not as I do" is an unstable platform to stand on when attempting to instruct others.

You just described emotions versus logic.

Emotions: whippee, I love that pretty car over there, I am going to buy it! And have fun! And speed around town and outrun the cops! yippee skippee!!

Mr Logic: are you nuts? yegads that sucker is an overpriced gas hog and after 4 weeks of great fun you will RESENT the price you paid and be stuck with the damn thing. And then if you want to trade it in, the car salesman will insult you with some ridiculously low price, 75% of Kelley, that will send you into a rage! FERGET IT!!

BINGO!!

MEDC - for the record, I agree with what Mel posted. Sometimes success IS divorce and I don't look down on anyone who chooses that. I also don't look down on people who just walk away - that is their right.

Double Bingo!

Hoo boy, I’m not sure where to begin...

How about here -> There appears to be an active, adamant MB PC line-up. A PC code completely separate from the TOS.

Maybe that’s where I should stop, too. But, you know what they say about angels and fools…

I post this particular opinion – let me state for those who don’t recognize an opinion when they see one, it is an opinion - because, in a nutshell, there is not enough triage on MB.

Many, perhaps most, BS who come here are intentionally lead down a path of obvious, prolonged and inevitable agony because MB is much like a fundamentalist religion to a lot of old posters here.

Does not matter if MB does not actually make much sense, and it will not work on most cases. All posters must hold to the doctrine, or else suffer the wrath of true believers. Then a year or even five years later and it isn’t working and, well, it’s the BS’s fault because they must have done something wrong.

This place has long needed a reality check on pink smoke blowing evangelists.

More information needs to be gathered about the adulterers before their victims are advised to stick it out, even if just for a few months. Because, MB works a lot, a huge lot, less than advertised.

The percentage of marriages that end due to adultery is much higher than admitted here.

The percentage of adulterers who truly did make a mistake (I despise that word and it is not a word that should be used for adultery of any kind, but I need to invent a new word first I think) and are not core adulterers is much, much lower than readily admitted here. And these adulterers can be identified – really, these mistaken adulterers can usually be identified – and their BS actually has a slim chance to work with them.

But the rest of the adulterers in the universe, a vast 97 and 44 one-hundredths percent majority, need to be left behind as soon as possible.

BS not told this up front are being lied to by omission.

I have stated this opinion before.

If this opinion means I should not post here let me know. Take a poll or something. Block my account. Whatever.

Aphelion, I'm sure you will be shocked to know I agree with much of your post and disagree with some. LOL.

Even Dr Harley says most marriages do not recover from adultery. Many people do not have it in them to work the program.

It is your characterisations of FWS's and FWW's in particular that many find so offensive - or at least I find offensive. You claim to be a Christian yet claim that people cannot change.

I could say more but that would just be rehashing more of the same.

Peace.

I for one, hope you stay. Different opinions are refreshing to me.

Many here wouldn't stay in a marriage only to keep the family together, so they don't understand. You are a good man, have weighed the pros and cons, and have decided to stick it out. I wish more men were like you.

I admit it - I sniffed the pink smoke and drank the koolaid - so did my wife!

I've read the whole of this thread and I've laughed, cried, wanted to be offended (because it cut to the bone, you know), but couldn't be, agreed with some things said, and disagreed.
All I can say is that I hope that serial cheaters can change their spots. But, I don't know that everyone can change. I know that change is possible, because change is growth and I know that I've grown. Other than that...I can't see into the mind of anyone else. I can only hope.

Thanks to each of you for making me think and for helping me see different points of view.

I agree that there is a great deal of misinformation on various sites regarding the success rate after fidleity(success in terms of rconciling). I was gald to see that on this site, Dr Harley is upfront that the odds of these Plans working are long.
But, since he puts forth this information about the lack of success in most cases, the BS can make an informed decision as to whether it is worth it to try .
The information I have read that comes from sites not promoting their sevices for a fee seems to point to about a 30% reconciliation rate. I've spoken to two therapists specializing in infidelity counseling and they seemed to think 30% was high and it is more like 15%.
So, I think it is important to get the real info out there so BS's can decide if they feel it is worth bucking the odds.
And, I agree with Alphelion about the need to factor in the type of WS one is dealing with. Some of the behaviors accompanying the cheating, the blame, the criticism, the gaslighting and overall sadism by the WS, make it clear that the BS is dealing with someone who has a lot more wrong with him or her than merely the inability to remain faithful.

What do you mean by this? Can you give me a reference?

Okay so you view yourself as a savior - the lone voice crying out in the wilderness.

I find that admirable because it is selfless.

I never said you shouldn't post. I was just curious why you did.

I do agree with Mr W however (gosh that was painful to admit).

If you had posted to my thread when I first came here, I doubt I would still be married.

So if I question anything, it isn't your opinion - it's your judgment.

Just to add: There was/is a poster (hiker-something or other) that pushed me to the brink of divorce unintentionally. So all these opinions at a time when a BS is so vulnerable really do take a toll.

Almost every couple I have ever known, from my parents to my brother and a lot more, have gotten back together after the first case of adultery. Second and subsequent times seem to be the deal breaker.

Mel, I was reading Mark's post on Plan A where he says it works about 15% of the time. Then, I read an April 2008 article bt Dr Harley describing the success rate of Plan B. He said that using Plan B makes divorce more likely. So, we have only 15% recovering form Plan A. Not sure , exactly, what percentage of Plan B folks(the remainig 85%) fail.
I saw numerous article on the internet citing about a 30% success rate. But, no stats on how many of the failed 70% employed MB methods.
So, I may be wrong that the majority of folks using Plan A and B fail to reconcile. Depends on the failure rate of the Plan B'ers.
But, since he seems to be comparing the success rate of Plan A to Plan B, by saying Plan B makes reconcilliation less likely(as compared to plan A, presumably). The success rate of Plan B must be less than 15%(assuming Mark's figure on Plan A was correct). So, best case scenario using this information is 29.9999...% success.
Sound logical?

On the flip side of that coin, I am so very happy that I did not run into some of the "pink smoke blowing evangelists" when I got here. I may have wasted even more years on a horrid person had people convinced me she could actually change. The damage to my son would have also been enormous.