Thanks cat, for the confirmation about craigslist personals, even "platonic w4w"! LOL It's too bad that "just friends" implies the potential for being more than friends... like, you and I would never have to clarify that we were "just friends"

Also thanks for the thing about the "Notes". I've always hesitated to write down passwords, either on paper or on the computer. But now I'm getting so many, I've decided to start keeping them someplace like you said.

Ears, thanks for being patient for me to write a thought-out response:


I'm not exactly sure what means undifferentiated but I think I know. If I seem to have it wrong please let me know. Is it sorta like, each of us going into the M accepting a certain amount of dysfunctionality, but then one of us decides to grow beyond that? So that person is sort of breaking an unspoken contract? Or does undifferentiated mean enmeshed, too joined in together, with poor to no boundaries?

I don't think I'm quite as withdrawn as hold is, although there are brief times where I feel close to that. But I haven't completely given up on doing my part, and I'm still willing to try H&O when I think it might be heard and won't be a DJ to him (forcing him to talk, even if for 2 minutes).

I don't think he's willing to make changes. I'm still willing to do what I can.

For example last night he brought in another box of stuff and I unpacked it. I put a little glass container next to the other glass containers on the countertop - you know, for sugar, flour, etc? This would've been the smallest, but I thought it looked nice at the end of the row and was thinking of putting tea or coffee or candy in it. H apparently moved it. When I asked him about it, he said "It doesn't belong there." I replied that I thought it did belong there, that's why I put it there, and if the situation were reversed I would've asked him before just moving it. I also said (later that evening, so I wasn't going on and on about it in one sitting - I didn't force him to listen for more than 2 minutes at a time) that him moving it without asking was a LB, that it was IB and also an AH since he does it so often without even giving me a voice. I said I just wanted to let him know that he is hurting his LB$ account when he does things like that.

It is still missing from the counter and I have no idea where he's put it. He wouldn't tell me and I haven't found it. It is something I bought, on purpose, and had in my old house.

I feel unmotivated to help unpack or do anything to fix up this house since apparently I don't have a say over even something as small as a small glass container on a *huge* countertop. Should I tell him that, or would that be harping on it?

He did eventually "allow" me to have a box of kleenex on the bathroom counter, but only after I'd put one there several times and he kept removing it, and I expressed my preference to have one there several times, and told him my reasonings several times. Frankly I fail to see why a grown woman needs to justify wanting a box of tissues on the bathroom counter! So if the glass container were to show up as a result of my cajoling and trying to justify my reasoning to him, that won't make me feel better at all. It just reinforces that he gets the final say over everything and I have to plead for even such teensy tiny things. So me trying to tell him anything else might just be an LB to *me* since it will either have no effect (an LB to me) or even if it has an effect it is only a result of my pleading (also an LB to me).

So that's a case of him not being willing to change, and I was willing to try being H&O about it and approaching it as a Thoughtful Request with no AOs or SDs or DJs. (I never demanded that the jar be kept there. I just said that him removing it without even discussing it with me was an IB and AH.)

It's such a tiny thing, it sounds silly that I'd make such a big deal about it. I really am not making a big deal to him about it, I'm just describing it to you. And it's just representative of him IBing and completely disregarding my feelings and being unwilling to do anything for the sake of the M that he wouldn't want to do anyway.

Reality check: how many of you women have to justify to your husband the placement of EACH AND EVERY KNICK KNACK IN THE HOUSE????? Is this me being like Mr.Cat and leaving clutter all over the house? Because I thought the glass container looked quite nice on the countertop and would look great filled with colorful jellybeans (what I had in my old house) or something brown like tea or coffee, next to the sugar container. And this is a huge countertop, it wasn't in the way at all. he keeps the toaster and the espresso machine on top too, and I never use those, but I don't keep moving them to the cabinet below.

How should I handle this sort of attitude *in general*? At this point I don't want the glass container up there at his "grace". What I want is an equal right to decide where things go. I don't want to go through this over every single thing we bring in. So I don't want to negotiate this one glass container, I want to know what I should do about the attitude, or what should I do the next time something like this happens; or should I just stop putting away *anything*? Or should I stop doing *anything* around the house? That feels like I'm trying to manipulate him to put the glass thing back. That's not it. The glass thing can go in the garbage for all I care now. But if this attitude continues, I'm going to have a very depleted LB$.


It's hard to describe, but our careers *are* part of our home life. Something like 99% of the women in my field marry men who are in the same field. Truthfully, I know of only *one* woman in my field, friend or acquaintance or even just to know their name, who married someone outside this field. My pool of friends is usually within my field, or at least within my workplace. When I try things like joining a women's Bible study or home group or something, I always feel unaccepted, like I've got purple horns or something and everyone is looking but not mentioning them.

One stellar exception is music organizations. Like, when I played keyboards in a band!!! There's so many animal lovers and outdoorsy folks here, at least half the folk we know own horses and only one couple doesn't own dogs but they want a Jack Russell terrier as soon as they can afford to move, that I thought getting involved in AKC or (with the kids) 4H or something would be a good way to meet folks outside of work.

Otherwise, I really don't see us meeting anyone outside of work except the parents of the other cub scout members. And that is just to do scouting activities.


Thanks for the vote of confidence ears! I do think things are tremendously better than they were even one year ago. Looking back at last December, I was absolutely devastated and worn down and crushed by various things. My life is so much better now.

Thanks for your faith in me and for your patience with me!

I forgot to mention this in my previous post, but I sort of addressed it. I don't think we have tennis clubs around here, I haven't known anyone who played tennis since I left the East Coast. Most folks around here do things like skiing/snowshoeing/etc, which we would do as a family. Where I used to live, a lot of my friends did rock climbing. I'm not in shape for that any more, but I'd sure like to get back in that sort of shape! I used to enjoy it, and my H has never done that, so I guess that would be something I could do with friends if anyone around here does that sort of thing... but aren't we supposed to be looking to spend *more* time together, not ways to spend time with others?

Other things: not sure what Bunko is. All the mothers I know seem as busy as I am, and the only time we see each other is at cub scouts activities. There's a neighbor who introduced herself right before Christmas and she got our contact info for the newsletter. She sent me email. She has kids a bit older and a bit younger than ours. So we could get together as a family.

There's one woman at work who I talk to a lot and she goes to the gym there. I could join and maybe go with her. Right now she's in a lot better shape than me though, I may have to work up to her speed first.

But again, that would then be another time constraint. I think most of the time she goes is after work, right when I need to pick up the kids.

Speaking of picking up kids, I thought next semester my schedule would be the same as this past one, but I recently found out that they have me down for a class from 5-7 and from 7-9 Tuesday evenings (with a 10-minute break in between). I'm debating what to do about this, given H's track record on his "promise" to handle Wednesday evenings for me. Basically I think he followed through on his commitment about 1/3 of the time. The other 2/3 of the time I had to come up with a work-around.

The kids' after-school program closes at 6 p.m. I could pick them up before 5 but then they would have to sit quietly reading or coloring in the classroom or be unsupervised in my office until H comes to pick them up. Neither of those seems acceptable.

But I don't want to be told Tuesday morning "oh BTW I can't pick the kids up today, you'll have to figure something out or find someone else to do it."

I think Stella or someone asked awhile back what's the worst that could happen if no one picked them up. That would be, social services would be called and they would be placed in a foster program!!! I think it goes without saying that is NOT an option, I would risk getting fired before that would happen. But that doesn't mean I think I *should* have to risk getting fired, just because H breaks his commitment to pick them up one day a week.

So, I am tempted to not tell H anything about my schedule, and find someone to take care of them until I'm done around 9:00. I wonder what H will do that first week when he gets home sometime between 6 and 7, and no one's home. You think he'll start getting the idea that communication is broken in this M???

I was thinking of suggesting finding someone to be responsible for the kids after work. Many kids do just fine with this arrangement. Around here, we also have things like the local karate school picks up from the local schools, and the kids take karate classes until 5 or 6 or 7; also a general afterschool daycare situation. Same goes with YMCA, and some actual daycare centers. I think it would go a long way toward removing that potential LB from your lives.

Bunko is some sort of card game. I didn't mean those ideas specifically, just giving examples. I'm sure you can find something around there that interests you.

As for the jar, that would really be a deal buster for me. He is being completely anal retentive, and that is not fair to his partner - ANY partner. You are going to have to enact a real, sit-down conversation about it, maybe with a mediator even. You'll never survive another 30 years with him at this rate.

Thanks cat for the reply!

They are already in an after-school program, it ends at 6. On Wednesdays they go to a church's after-school program, it ends at 5. Now that I think about it, that may be why H had a hard time getting there in time. Where he works is 45 minutes away so he would have to leave a little after 4 to be sure to get there by 5. It may be easier for him to get to their regular place by 6 on Tuesdays.

I was looking for someone who we could pay to pick them up every Tuesday and keep them until 9. Neither of the babysitters we've already used would probably be enthusiastic about that - one is a family with a boy his age, and on a school night, having company every Tuesday past 9:00??? The other is two preteen girls, friends, their mothers work in the lab down the hall from me. The girls don't drive so I would essentially be asking one of the moms to pick up my kids and keep them until 9 every Tuesday, a school night. And my kids would get cranky once the novelty wore off and once it got past their bedtime. Neither of these is a good solution, and neither is finding someone else either, but that that's why I was cruising craigslist last night.

But then whoever picks them up needs *two* kid-sized booster seats, not toddler car seats. And would be a stranger, since we don't know hardly anyone.

Again, not a very good solution.

But then I also remembered that all their scout meetings are either Tuesdays or Thursdays, at 6:30 or 7:00. Which makes having them stay with a babysitter every Tuesday even less desirable.

Maybe I should ask H if he can commit to picking them up every Tuesday by 6, and let him know that I will be in class, unreachable unless it's a medical emergency.

Re. the jar: any advice on how to do this sit-down conversation? Do I start by asking him if we can talk for a few minutes? What do I do if he says no? Should I wait until I can get back in to talk to Steve?

the jar:

Who dares me to do what I did once before - hide all his underwear??? You know, since he feels ok with moving and hiding my stuff... Hey, I disagree with his choice of where to keep his underwear. It doesn't belong in that drawer.

Then again, he apparently didn't permanently get the msg before.

It seems to me that the best way to approach it would be honesty. Just say "I have to tell you about something that is happening that is causing me an exorbitant amount of stress. Because you and I approach such things from completely different angles, we're not going to understand or be ok with each other's method. So I'd like to hash this out with you so we could find a way to let both of us feel loved and respected at the same time. Because if we can't find a mutual ground on this, my resentment at feeling dismissed is going to keep growing, to the point where I don't like you any more, and I don't want that! Here's what I'm talking about..."

Boy that's a long statement... I'm not sure he'd listen to all that. Don't I need to first ask him if he'll listen to me for a sec? Otherwise, what I envision based on history, is he will just sit there staring at the computer screen and not say a word. I think he will tune me out after the first 30 seconds.

How do I start the approach?

How about: "if you keep moving my stuff, I'll eventually grow to hate you. Are you OK with that?"

First off, NEVER start a conversation with a man when there is any electronic device within 100 ft, lol. The only exception: when you're in the car. That's supposed to be one of the best ways to have a conversation, cos you're both trapped. Turn off the radio, and you can say your piece, and you know he has to hear you; whether he responds to it or not is his choice, but he HAS heard you. Then turn the radio back on. I like hold's example. Or, you could do a drive-by, and leave. But make sure he couldn't be involved in anything else at the time, like TV or computer or phone or book.

When my wife wants to get my attention away from the tv or computer or PS3, she uses one of the following techniques: (i) poke me on the upper arm, (ii) take my head in both of her hands and point it away from the screen and toward her, (iii) throw something at me, or (iv) flash her chest - j/k - I only wish she would do that last one.

Seriously though, she knows not to bother saying anything while my face is turned toward the screen. Also, it helps to make the guy repeat whatever you have just said to make sure he heard (although he still may not listen or remember hearing).

It also helps some guys to break it down into steps. If you want him to pick up the kids at 6:00, ask him what time he needs to get into his car. Then ask him what time he needs to get up from his desk and head toward the car. Then ask him what time the alarm has to ring in order for him to get up from his desk at the scheduled time. Some will see this as "enabling". Which it is. But it does tend to address the "never heard you say that" issue. And if you break it down into steps and ask him whether it is realistic to think he can manage the proposed schedule, you are most of the way to POJAing a solution that does work for him.

Or, if you are dead set against using Radical Honesty and POJA to find a solution, you can do the ultimate manipulation. Get the kids to bug him. Pick them up early and arrange for them to be bored to tears sitting in your office. Eventually they will ask Dad why he can't pick them up later so they don't have to be bored at Mom's. Kids will not be nearly as reticent to complain to Dad as you are.

1. First, get a LARGE tube of epoxy or contact cement.

2. Then, glue the kleenix box to the bathroom shelf where you want it.

3. Then, glue the jar to the jar shelf where you want it.

4. Are there any other things that need glueing??


PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!

BECOME THE ULTIMATE "GLUE-MISTRESS"

Sometimes, a tube of glue is worth a thousand words!

That may actually work!!! It may not make him change, but it has the best chance of him hearing it!!!

But there's never a time when he isn't doing *something*. Except when he comes to bed, and he really isn't open to talking then.

But hold's sentence may be short enough for him to hear, even at bedtime.

Hold, thanks! That's why it's so good to have a guy's point of view.

I LOVE IT!!!

I prolly won't try it though... I like my new countertops too much... well they aren't brand new but they're new to me.

So is a glue-gun the female version of duct-tape? Anyone know the Red Green Show? Red Green might sorta be the Canadian version of... let's see... the Lake Wobegone guy maybe? Only more outdoorsy... anyway he says things like "If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." and "Duct tape, the handy man's secret weapon." He does things like fix a flat tire with duct tape. It lasts about as long as you'd expect.

Ok, he's more like the Tim the Tool Man character!

So we need a "Gail the Glue Gun Gal."

The jar: I have 'bout the same advice as to the Kleenex. Buy another one. Put it on the counter. If it disappears? Buy another one. Put it on the counter. Rinse and repeat as needed.

I don't know how special the original is, but glass jars should run around $3-$7 for the small size, even cheaper at the dollar store. I'd budget for one or two a month, plus candy. What guy is going to remove a jar full of candy?

Maybe once he realizes that there's going to be a glass jar there, regardless, he'll give up the original. Then you can move the others to the pantry.

LOL

But I'm getting LB$ bankrupt from having to negotiate every single item in the house.

He's cooking dinner right now - something I said I didn't want, but he insisted, so he's doing it himself. But I was thinking of going in there and saying hold's line. A little modified perhaps since he also said he was only working a halfday but he didn't get home until well after 6:00. But then again I don't wanna try to cover too many things in one statement.

How's this:
"When you do Independent Behaviors like move my things or stay at work longer without telling me, ..."

Nope, getting too long. Hold's's is better. Here I go, wish me luck.


Nope, getting too long. Hold's's is better. Here I go, wish me luck.

done. Quick reply so we have a realistic time stamp of how long I forced him to converse.

Ok so there was 7 minutes between my last two posts. Plus the time it took to put the computer down, walk in there. wait for him to look at me (I had to step in between him and the bottle of wine he was about to open LOL), talk, walk back in here, pick up the computer, sit down, and type that message. I think it's fair to say I kept it under 5 minutes of talking.

I said exactly what hold said. He said "What things?" I said "Like that little glass jar that was right here." He said "Ok fine." I said "It isn't just one thing, it's that I had to plead with you and convince you that it was ok to keep a box of Kleenex on the bathroom counter. It's that I don't get a vote around here. It's Independent Behaviors like saying you're only gonna work a half day but then not coming home until well after 6:00, without letting me know. I don't know how much simpler to put it other than, if these things continue to happen, I will eventually grow to hate you. Are you ok with that."

There were pauses throughout while I waited for him to respond. He did once, to say he tried to call but there was no answer. I said my mom had the phone downstairs all day and was using it; why didn't he email since that's what he usually does.

What sucks is he seemed in a great mood when he came home. Now he isn't. So I'm sure I just took a huge withdrawal in my LB$ account with him.

Is it any consolation that I'm in your LB$ withdrawal club today?

Mine came up all sneaky-like. Here I was, asserting my boundaries (as I believe you were) and here he went (as I believe your H did) into a world of being DJ'd and responding accordingly. *sigh*

What did he say to "are you okay with that?"