Why did you tell us about OM2 ( when you were married ) and not OM1 ( before you were married and dating BH )?

Why were you able to put OM1 out of your mind ( and not tell us or confess ) and not OM2?

These questions are not meant to bash, but get you thinking?

Does your BH know that many people that that have affairs never have the intention to leave their spouse.

Why not tell BH: Not that it makes what I did less wrong. Iwas wrong to have the affair but did not move to leave you BH, because I never did. You weren't my second choice. I was lost for awhile.

FWIW, this is still something that still haunts me one year later. Despite all the lies and deceit, one of the most vivid memories I have is that of my W disheveled and distraught the day after the OM dumped her. I think it is especially difficult for men to feel as if they are second best.

The main reason I am chiming in, however, is to let you know that I still think things are going well. You are on the right path but as they say, it is difficult to move forward when you spend your time looking backwards. Learn from the past but try not to beat yourself up.

Keep up the good work, L4, and don't forget to take care of yourself.

- Sh0cked

L4,
I don't believe I've posted to you before, but I've been following along. I wanted to commend you for your efforts to confront this situation honestly and with the right goal in mind: a happy and healthy marriage, and not simply marriage at any cost.

I hope you don't mind if I step in here to ask a question of the group, related to your sitch and the following specific point:


I would love it if I could get some additional perspective on this particular point. L4 has stated that her H was not really that great for most of their marriage. I believe her. Of course, having an affair only makes matters worse, and I'm not justifying her decision to do that. However, it seems clear to me that L4's husband was simply not that great a husband. And now he has trouble coping with the feeling that he was second best? It sounds to me like calling him "second" would be somewhat generous! I guess my instinctive feeling is that he is not entitled to feel like he was the best throughout their marriage, because he just plain wasn't.

Again, I definitely understand that the affair really muddies the waters with regard to getting L4's husband to own his part in their unhappy marriage (pre-A). But, regardless of how difficult and complicated that is, doesn't he need to own it anyway?

I realize I may not be making sense here. I'm really not trying to challenge the concepts or even any BS' experience. But I feel some sort of disconnect here, and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on it.


[Edited to remove unnecessary coding garbage.]

Curious53, I understand where you are coming from but let's face it, if many were better husbands (myself included) there would be far fewer affairs.

I, for one, thought that no matter what I did or how I behaved, my W would always be there for me. I became self absorbed and we drifted into separate lives. Was I a bad husband? Absolutely – mostly because I naively thought just being myself would keep her content. I did not realize that genuine effort put into the marriage was so important.

My W came back only after the OM cut her loose; she did not choose to end it for me or the marriage. It is for that reason, I am the second choice. If he did not end it, we would likely be divorced.

I suspect Mr. L4 feels the same way. He probably assumed his uniqueness was enough. He took a huge blow when L4 gave her affection to another and was further wounded because it was the OM that deemed L4 unworthy instead of the other way around. What man takes pride a woman that isn’t good enough for a slime ball?

Well, if you were a bad husband, of course she didn't choose to end the marriage for you. That's not really a surprise, is it?


Ah, well now you're giving a perspective I hadn't considered. Now we don't know for sure that Mr. L4 is thinking this way, so let's generalize it. You're suggesting that a BH might value his WW less because the OM valued her less (demonstrated by the fact that OM dumped WW). In other words, the BH can't appraise the WW according on his own -- he's depending on another man's appraisal of her to determine how much he values her. Is that how you felt?

While I definitely believe it plays out that way with some couples (I'm certain that some men's feelings about their wives are determined entirely by what they think other men think of her), I'm not so sure that's what's going on with L4's husband. But even so, that still doesn't help me with my original question. I guess I'm taking L4's H's behavior as an indication that he is surprised that she would prefer another man to him. But if he's been such a monumental jerk for so many years (something he had come to understand in MC), how can he possibly be so surprised? I mean, to expect her to prefer him to OM would almost require him to imagine that she likes being treated like crap. And, OK, maybe before they started counseling, he was too oblivious to recognize that he was treating her like crap (although that's really pushing it -- I suspect he knew and just couldn't be bothered to make to do otherwise), but once he was aware of what he behavior needed to be -- THEN he can't handle the fact that he was second choice? It makes no sense to me.

Hi, TR. I didn't mention OM1 initially on this thread because, and I'm serious when I type this, I didn't think of it, and if I had, I wouldn't have thought it important. I know now that it is and was critically important. I told about OM1 here back several pages the end of October. I got quite a few (deserved) lashings for it.

I don't know what he knows. I've recommended books and resources on marriage and affairs and he has no interest in outside information about what he and we are going through. When I was in my A earlier this year, I did think I would leave H. Not for the OM because OM said he wouldn't leave his M for me and because OM lives so far away. But I thought I would leave because I felt I must not love H enough if I had an A. And I thought we shouldn't be M because despite my attempts to get H to meet my needs, he wasn't doing so. And I'm sure I wasn't meeting his. I felt we were over, regardless.

Good input. Thank you.

L4, sorry about the TJ. I am very interested in your progress and wish you all the best. You deserve happiness and have my respect.

Curious53, I have started a seperate thread here.

Always nice to hear from you, Sh0cked. Take care.

Geez, C53. You've added a dimension to this that I had never even considered. Thank you for bringing it up. I'll jump over to the new thread titled "For Curious53 - Second Best" to see how this plays out among the masses. I will reply though, to how this relates specifically to my H.


It's not what is going on with H. He is very independent in his thoughts.

This is stuff he needs to deal with, I think. I really wish H would do IC -- whether with our pastor or a professional therapist.

For the record, H wasn't a monumental jerk all the time. And I'm sure I was contributing to our discord. I believe H just couldn't verbalize my faults to me so I thought I was the bee's knees in our M -- doing no wrong. As I've mentioned here, I talked to the FOM about my marriage problems. The FOM described how H was acting as "He is comfortable." Without consequence, H had a household that was well-managed, two healthy and happy kids, a managed social calendar, clean clothes, baby-sitter for his children, full pantry, meals, many household projects completed because of my father and uncle, a comfortable lifestyle due to my substantial paycheck, a respected wife who is okay to look at... Why should he have changed when he had his cake and could eat it too? That's what I felt like anyway. And it's not all his fault. I allowed it to happen, setting no or fragile boundaries. I let him think it was all acceptable, that my ENs weren't important. Of course I'm talking for H here and could be completely off base on how I've interpretted my H's actions.

Doesn't matter. He could have been the worst H ever. And I still should not have betrayed him and had an affair.

look4

"Why not tell BH: Not that it makes what I did less wrong. I was wrong to have the affair but did not move to leave you BH, because I never did. You weren't my second choice. I was lost for awhile."

Have you tried this yet?

Okay. If I need to just chill and let this roller coaster ride out, tell me so. But I can't stand this. I don't know what I can do, how I can respond to my H. I want to help him but I have no idea how/if I can.

My H just sent me this IM thread:

"I'm just trying to tell you that what we're doing around here lately (SF) does not mean we're staying together. I enjoy being physical with you, and holding you at certain times... but I don't want you to translate this into thinking I'm over what you've do to me/us. Knowing this... you don't have to physical with me."

I responded: "I don't expect you'll ever get over what I've done to you/us. What do you want?" (I was referring to the sleeping/physical stuff.)

H's response: "I want a 'do-over' card for marriage. I want to read about your infidelity with some other guy that you married and be able to say... 'Wow, glad I didn't marry her.' I want to go back and pick the girl to marry who really believed in a wedding vow. I want go back in time and beat the odds on who I picked as my wife. I want to go back and pick the girl to marry who isnt a professionally skilled liar. I want [OMW's] situation where she only has to deal with one brief affair that happened during a bad time in their marriage. For me... I have to deal with your affairs in good times and in bad times. (Referring to PA1 PreM when he feels we were "good". Perhaps "we" were good, but I was a mess.) I want things I can't have."

H ended by telling me that I'm welcome to move back into the guestroom, stating, "If you need to protect yourself and sleep in the other room while I try to sort things out in my head, I'm ok with that. I'm not trying to lead you on... I want to be up front with you."

And he still won't commit to letting me spend Christmas with him. I don't know what I'll be doing.

I know I'm the cheater. I know I'm in the wrong here. I even know he's right and I don't fault him at all for his wishes that he never married me. But I also know I want to save my M and I don't know what I can do. Anything? Input?

L4,

I don't know if you have read this yet or not: Can't We Forgive and Forget?

This from the article:

I highlighted the last part in red because I wanted it to stand out. I already know what your response to this idea is likely to be. It is the same as my wife's response and probably that of almost any WS who stops the affair and commits to recovery and reconciliation, at least in the beginning.

If the answer to the question "what caused the affair" has anything to to with what your husband did or did not do, he will NEVER be able to feel safe that it can never happen again.

As you look at what led to the affair, you need to identify that thing within YOU that allowed it to happen. This is what you must protect against ever happening again and be able to demonstrate to your husband what those precautions are in order to help him really heal and feel secure in the knowledge that his wife will remain faithful in the future.

Those who deal with alcoholics have a term that is used to describe someone who is not actively drinking, but has not taken the needed steps to stop themselves from falling off the wagon in the future. These people are called "dry drunks." While they are not actively drinking, might be keeping themselves in check and may not even consider drinking as an option, they have not yet determined that they must protect themselves from being put into a position where willpower alone might not be enough to prevent them from going on a binge. These are the ones who dry out, relapse, crash, rehab, dry out, relapse, crash and rehab again.

What must be identified in order to establish those precautions that can keep you from ever having another affair is what inside of you gave you permission to choose having an affair as an option to your situation? There really are no viable reasons that excuse an affair. If a marriage is bad enough to abandon, then it should be abandoned. If it needs to be fixed, then it should be fixed. Going outside the marriage to get your own ENs met is NOT a viable reason to inflict that kind of pain on someone else.

You see, a betrayed spouse is forever seeking the answer to the question "Why?" Why did you do this to me? Why did you hurt me so badly? Why did you betray must trust in you? Why? Why? Why?...

But you can never answer that question beyond saying "I was being selfish, not showing any empathy for you and really didn't care what you felt because i was only thinking of me."

Now that isn't a very good answer to the question since it doesn't tell the BS what will stop it from ever happening again. And THAT is where the problem lies in just moving forward and forgetting the past and forgiving the sin of adultery.

So the question you must answer for yourself is "WHAT?" instead of "Why?" Any answer you can give to "Why?" is likely to be the list of things you used in order to justify the affair while it was going on. It will be unfair comparison between your real husband and the fantasy of the OM. It will be a list of all negative qualities of your husband and only all the good stuff about OM.

But by asking yourself the question "What?" as in, "What happened inside of me that made having an affair seem right?" "What process did I go through that gave me permission to hurt my husband that badly?" "What was MY failure that allowed me to become a cheater and think it was right?"

And then comes the BIG answer to the really BIG question...


"What will I do from this day forward to make absolutely certain that none of those things can ever happen again?"

This is the Extraordinary Precautions Dr Harley talks about. Those things that you will do to make sure you never again give yourself permission to cheat. It will be a list of things you will avoid as if your life depends on them. It will be a list of things you will do as if you would die as surely as if you failed to eat or drink. It will be a list of stuff that YOU will do that will stop YOU from cheating no matter what your husband does in the future.

We have really crummy weather around here this time of year. Today it's ice, tomorrow is is supposed to be pretty extreme cold. Today I can be pretty certain of my own safety if I stay in the house and don't try to drive anywhere. But I might even run into trouble at home if the power goes out because of ice on the power lines. And tomorrow, since it will be much colder than today, if I go out on the roads and try to drive, I could end up in a ditch somewhere. If that is along the highway where thousands of people will drive by in the next couple of hours, I should be able to be rescued easily...

But if I go for a ride in the country tomorrow, way out where almost no one drives by, perhaps where no one will find me for a day or so, then unless I know what to do and how to prepare for a long cold night alone in way below freezing conditions, I could be dead before anyone finds me.

So two things have to be identified. What can lead to a problem?
And...
What can I do to save myself from that problem?

There are some situations I can avoid all together. Other situations I can only try to minimize the exposure to risk. (Like not driving 90 MPH down a country road on ice when the temperature is minus 10 Fahrenheit) But I also need to be able to live (and get to work on time in spite of the weather) so I must know what to do when I find myself in a dangerous situation AND if the worst comes to pass (my weakness is hit head on by the situation) I must be able to know what to do in order to get myself out of it without succumbing to the threat.

Like when in a situation where you are feeling down, ,missing something in the EN department, and not feeling especially loving toward your husband and a handsome, well dressed, charming stranger comes on to you...

What can you do right then?

You might be able to avoid handsome, charming well dressed strangers almost every day of your life, and if all is well in your marriage you might have no desire to hook up with one even if he offers...

But what will you do if you don't feel great love toward your husband at the moment, the stress of marriage has driven you almost mad with wanting to get away, work is awful, life stinks and you just wish you could slip away into a romance novel and THAT is when this guy shows up in your life...What will you do THEN to prevent falling into an affair?

The way to answer that question is to identify what inside of you made an affair the right choice. How can you make that never be the right choice ever again? And if you can't prevent the feelings from sneaking up on you when you aren't looking, then you must know how to avoid being in a situation where those feelings can occur AND must know what to do to get out of the situation without ever acting on it in the least, littlest, most minuscule way, since affairs don't happen all at once, but in increments and tiny steps. Identify the first step and don't take it and the affair never happens.

What was that first step?

Can't guarantee your husband is going to become a model husband and your marriage will recover and be filled with joy. But I can tell you that unless you can answer"What"" more than "Why?" your husband will never feel safe.

Mark

Edited to add: About half of this post vanished the first time around. Don't know why, never had that happen before.

But I fixed it now...

[[[[[[[[[[[[{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{((((((((((((L4))))))))))))}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

That's a big hug to help you cinch up your seatbelt a little tighter, L4. This recovery rollercoaster will test your commitment and resolve for many months and years to come.

Mark has suggested solid help you need to begin asking/answering those relevant questions. I can only offer my experiences since I can identify with your H on many respects:

* detail minded
* prone to be verbally abusive pre-post A
* tries to justify my pain by inflicting pain on my H, even when trying to refrain (just can't seem to help it sometimes)
* discovery of past indiscretion (while I was totally unaware for years) nags at my conscious hesitation to ever trust him again, even two years later
* constantly questioning why I agreed to marry him
* obsessing with who else I might have married that would make me happy because I could trust him (no idea who he is/might be, but 'he' is out there....or I should say he was out there in my mindgames until my H began doing one little thing)

Here's how I am different from your H:

* I sought outside help before A and continue to seek help
* I have to live with the fact that my H never confessed the second A or the multiple false recoveries until he was busted (and he didn't confess the first indiscretion for 6+ years after being confronted with the second A)
* As mentioned in a previous post, my H dumped both OWs to end the A

Here's the 'one little thing' that my H now does/says to help me overcome my continued trauma and it's been working for 2 years so far.

He calmly says "I will do anything to help you heal....period."

I even tested him once and said "Will you fly across the country to apologize to OWH in person?" He sincerely said "If it will help you heal, I'll do it today."

I also said "Will you go to the Marriagebuilders Weekend in London?" expecting him to hesitate, but he repeated his new mantra without skipping a beat...."If it will help you heal, let's sign up today." (They cancelled it, though).

This may sound harsh, L4 but maybe it will help: You are different from my H when you state that "I can't stand this." If my H thought or showed that he thought that, I would calmly say, "OK" and we would proceed to Plan D. (It might pass, but that would be my first inclination.)

As long as he says and shows that he's willing to do anything to help me heal, we are making progress on this rollercoaster.

There are more specific things we do/did but I can't post them here due to privacy issues. If you want I'll share via email (my address is at the end of the saga linked below.)

Still praying for you L4. Keep asking the difficult questions like Mark mentioned and venting your frustrations here. For what it's worth, you have many things going for you:

* you may be the first FWW who possibly should have posted on GQII but you're so willing to listen that people seek you out to help you on this quiet recovery forum (a good sign, btw)

* you are a superb writer who seems to be able to communicate your situation clearly in your posts

* you are committed and courteous, coming back to accept difficult suggestions and you always acknowledge any reply whether you agree or not (can't even recall any contentious post from you at all)

To help you overcome your discouragement, vent here when you can't take it any longer so your H doesn't hear it. If you're willing endure your H's rollercoaster frustration, eventually he will see your changes that might lessen his fear of trusting you again.

But, like I said, my husband says and shows that he's willing to do anything and everything to help me heal, and as he follows through I find myself rebuilding trust in him more every day.

Are things perfect? No.

Do we mess up and fall off the recovery tracks? Yes

Do I regret not kicking him to the curb? Sometimes, but that is lessening with every day.

More times than not, however, I am soothed by what I hear and see in my husband's being willing to help me heal. And for the first time in 30+ years, we are experiencing what a marriage is supposed to be.

You can make it, L4....keep posting and seeking and many will help you succeed.

Hope that helps.

Ace

P.S. If I wasn't sure if I wanted my husband with me (in the bedroom, at a holiday family function, etc.) he would say (and has said) "If it will help you heal for me to stay away, I will." So far, the fact that he's willing is all I need to hear to get over my hesitation. Eventually it may be the same for your H.

L4,
I, too, am sorry for the threadjack and wish you all the best.

L4,

This seems like a pretty hopeful set of IM's. I think you H is looking for you to say that you want him, as a H, father, sexually ... Even that you want him with no conditions. I am thinking that you could reply that you want whatever he can give you, even if he can't promise to stay. That is a very powerful message.

In my own story, out situation blew up because I could not enjoy the sexual benefits while keeping my plans hidden. I am happier now even though I am divorced. Just being wanted is a powerful message.

I first read this Friday night, Mark. Your post and Ace's are very powerful. I haven't been able to respond because I don't have the answer, and I never once even thought about this "what" question. I've been so focused on why, and not being able to answer it logically (impossible, I know) has had both my husband and me stuck. I mean, when you're married and committed to someone, why the heck would you have an affair? Logically, it's not logical. Emotionally, it's selfish. Morally, it's just flat out wrong.

So what led me to have the A and what can I do to make sure I'll never allow myself to be in that position again? I have ideas, but I think I need to write this out. <smiling now> I should put together a PowerPoint for my H. Just kidding...

Your words and very well-thought, considerate input mean much to me, Mark. Oh, and I have read Dr. H's article on forgiveness. Thanks for taking the time to spell this out for me. I'll take your comments to heart.

I have. His response was ambivalent. I'll keep repeating it. I am making conscious efforts to apologize every day and to tell him that I want to do whatever needed to help him and us through this. Preferably get through it together.

Thank you, Ace.

I do this, too. I tell him often that I will do whatever he needs to process what I've done.

I don't state this to my H. If I do, it's prefaced as I can't stand what I've done and that I can't stand that I've jeopardized our M. I can't stand not knowing if we will be together because that's what I want. But I never imply that I can't stand his ups and downs, his asking questions, his anger and pain. I'm in no position to make demands on how he responds to my betrayal. If I find myself unfairly angry for any reason, I save those revelations for you folks here.

I want, but if my H isn't participating in trying to save the M, will it matter? He's being nice to me, communicating with me more, and we're having SF, but he's not actively working on our M as far as uncovering ENs and working on our couple-ness. At least not yet and I think (wrong?) that's understandable just 8 weeks post-confession.

I will as long as y'all will allow.

Always does, Ace. Gracias.

I have offered in every joint situation to stay behind or not attend if it will be better for H. What's frustrating is when he says, "I don't know," and leaves me flapping in the wind. I am a planner and I want to know what my day/week is going to look like so I can make the proper arrangements for myself, the family, and anyone else involved. So while I have been doing this, it goes against my grain to sit back and not bug him about whether or not he wants me to accompany him. And when he has said it's okay if I go with him, he says so with such low enthusiasm. I don't know if he's allowing me to escort him because he feels sorry for me or if he really wants my company.

A few things from recent days.

H told me Friday morning he was going to have lunch with a good (male) friend of his. Later that afternoon H IM-ed me that he didn't have lunch with the friend after all but with a man from our church -- a man whom we both very highly respect. I told H I was glad he had reached out to the fellow church member. (H hasn't been to church since I confessed to H 8 weeks ago.) I asked H why he lied to me. H said he didn't want me to freak out, thinking he was telling other people our business. I was sincerely perplexed and asked if I had freaked out yet about him telling anyone. He replied no, but this was a church member. I explained that I don't care who knows at this point. I'm guilty and will take any consequences if they lead to H's healing. I don't care about my reputation if it helps him/us.

H went to church today, for the kids' Christmas pageant. I saw the church member and thanked him for being there for H. He said he's there for both of us and that he is praying for us. After church I asked H if he's glad he attended. He answered yes. I hope that means he'll start going again.

It was only the second time in two months that H and I had been at the same event/place together outside of the home around people we know.

I had a job interview Friday that went very well, but while I like the company and job, it's for about one-third the pay I've been making for the last 9 years. I mentioned this to my H, stating that I was uncomfortable taking such a cut in salary as it will impact our life. H said it's important that I have a job with benefits -- something he's mentioned before when he's talked about how I'll care for myself if/when he divorces me. So I jumped ahead (I probably shouldn't have) and said it's good I'd have benefits should I need to take care of myself, but the pay is so much less, that couldn't support myself and our kids on it. H glared and said, "That's something you should have thought about before you blew everything and had an affair." Geez, did that ouch.

Lastly, I LB-ed this morning. My sister and her family are flying in from out-of-state Tuesday night and my H doesn't want to spend much time with them, stating that he doesn’t want to pretend that all’s well. I told him we don’t have to. All of our immediate family know about my PAs and that we’re struggling. They also know that we’re still together. From what I’m seeing and hearing, both families are supporting us and hope the M makes it. But back to Sunday morning…

My sister asked if she, her H, and their two kids could stay here the night they arrive due to our proximity to the airport and the fact that our kids are very close to her kids. H said he was upset that I didn't check with him first about them staying here. I reiterated that I had not yet committed to picking them up but that yes, I would like to host them that first night. H and I are very different in our relationships with our families -- mine are all very close while his pretty much keep to themselves. H criticizes the closeness of my clan while the lack of concern within his drives me nuts. He feels mine smothers, I feel his father’s side is inconsiderate. (H doesn't seem to mind my family when we want a baby-sitter or have a home project that we need help with, but he gets ornery when they want to stop by our house on their way into the city.) Anyway, it's another subject all-together so better for another post on another day... But to summarize, I felt H was attacking and judging my family and I yelled. He yelled back and soon we were talking loudly over each other, LBing up the wazoo. H got up and stormed out. I paused 2 minutes then found him downstairs, hugged him, and told him I agree with what he said about my dad. It’s such a hot button for us both, something we were only beginning to work on in MC back in October. I was mad that I allowed it to get loud.

You have apologized, which is good but I think apologizing everyday is bad.

My asking if you had told BH yet was not as another way to get you to apologize but as a way to communicate that he was not your second choice.

If you see him trigger you would be better served to give him a hug, ask if he wants you to do something. If he says no then let him process the trigger on his own.

They way it is wrong for a BS to smother a WS during the affair, it is wrong for the WS to smother the BS after the affair.