You know what? I am so sick of the blatent stupidity of this particular board. (No offense to those of you who are actually taking charge of your lives.) By not giving your spouse a timeline or not even knowing when the timeline is yourself, you ARE participating in allowing the cheating to go on. Yes, I think marriage is worth a shot, but if the betrayer has made it clear that they are not interested in anything but the OP, then, please, be somewhat intelligent and get the clue. You people are the reason our society places no blame on adulterers. If no one gives them any consequences for their actions, then how will it ever change. Yes, I did my part in my marriage, but my H made it clear that he wasn't interested in working on it and wanted to be with OW. I can't tie his hands to the chair and make him stay. Nor, would I want to. God gave us free choice.. all of us. But you are allowing yourself to be imprisioned by your spouse and the OP. Waiting, trying to make yourselves better...for who? Yourself? NO, for your betraying spouse so that they will come home.<BR>That is the most spineless, clingy, enabling thing you could possible do. And this board is nothing but a way for people to justify to themselves and others, why they can't stand up for morality and their own rights. So, if you all want to travel together down this lonely, self-pitying road...go for it. But, yes, I did the right thing. I am further along in my recovery than all of you will be in a year. Why? Because I cared enough about myself and my children, not to wallow in misery and let my H walk all over all of us. Please stop doing that to yourselves and your family. As far as this board, I don't think you will ever get it so.. I will stop trying.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

I respect your opinion. You did the right thing for you, now let us do the right thing for us. We are all taking charge of our lives. And how we chose to do that is not for you to judge. That last time I spoke with God his name was not carmarinick! Your name calling is not even needed. No one judged you or called you 'spineless' when we disagreed, we simply offered our support and if you can't respect that or the decision we make for ourselves, then that is sad. It shows a lack of character. And if your sick of this board, then leave. Until then like I said before sorry for your pain and I hope you heal real soon. You have a lot of bitterness and it shows. You are in my prayers.... <P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Yes, I agree with Jamie-Lee. You are bitter and have every reason to be. And I am sorry about that.<P>I for one am not sitting at home waiting for my husband to come home. I am working on being a better me so that I can be a better mother, friend and sometime down the road, a better partner, lover and spouse. The stuff I have learned here can not make my husband come home, but it can make me a stronger person than what I was before my H started his affair. I was a depressed, clingy, whiny, wimp. I am not that anymore and it's only taken me a month to get here. I AM a stronger person and if I've gotten that from MB, bless all of the people here who have helped me become that. <P>I know that if I had not found MB, I would still be curled up in a ball on my couch crying all day long. I certainly didn't get this kind of support from family and friends. It enabled me to get up and wake up and be the best me I can. Can you honestly say that you learned nothing from here?<P>Again I am sorry your marriage didn't work the way you wanted it to, but after the pain eases I'm sure you'll see that you have become a better and stronger person.<P>Prayers,<BR>Mitzi<BR>

Dear Rachel - I am so sorry for the pain you are experiencing. I, too, am divorced now. My H refused to give up the OW. He is now married to her. I, too, held out hope for about a year that reconciliation would be possible. But it was clear that he had emotionally divorced me long ago. I wish with all my heart that my marriage could have been saved. My H knew that I loved him unconditionally, but that meant nothing to him. I did nothing to stop the divorce, but did nothing to hasten it, either. Two and a half years after he walked out, he finalized the divorce on the grounds that we had lived apart for a year. I am sad that he has thrown our life together away - he discarded me like a piece of trash he no longer had any use for. I did not deserve his shabby treatment in any way. I was a loyal, loving wife for 17 years. He is no longer worthy of my respect or trust. I decided he was not worthy of my love any longer, and that I was wasting my time waiting for him to become a decent, loving, caring husband. <P>I agree that after a certain point, it is useless to keep hanging in there, emotionally destroying yourself over someone who longer cares in the least. But there are many people who are able to hold on longer than I was able to. My H clearly only cared about himself and his own wants - not the kind of person I want to be married to.<P>Everyone has their own timetable and amount of pain they can endure. However, if the spouse will not end the affair after several years, and divorces you anyway, what can you do? I made it more than clear to my H that I would not even talk to him concerning reconciliation unless he totally ended his affair and vowed to never see or speak to her again. And if he came back because she had ended it, well, I was not going to be someone's second choice. He had to end it of his own accord.<P>Bravo for you, Rachel for standing up for yourself. Your solution might not be for everyone, but it was the right one for you, as it was for me. In time, the bitterness will fade, and you will come to realize that you are better off alone than with someone with so little regard for you as a wife and as a human being. We now are free to seek happiness with a clear conscience, one not tainted with lying and cheating. I am much more at peace now that I am not being neglected, ignored, or treated with contempt by the man for whom I treated only with love. I took his emotional abuse and emotional blackmail for far longer than I should have. But I loved him, valued the committment I made, and believed that we could make it work. But he had NO desire to even try. I am sad for him - I think he made a mistake that he will one day live to regret. However, it is way past too late for any remarriage if he should decide he wants to come back.<P>My prayers are with you, Rachel. Be strong, and build a new, wonderful life for yourself and your children. Love and God Bless - Lady M

Cam,<P>I semi agree with you, I don't understand how some people can wait such long times for their spouses, but if they can, all the more power to them.<P>I don't know the specifics in your case but in mine, I think my stbx(tommorrow will be just x) has wanted out of the marriage for a long time and the affair just sort of happened which gave her reason to get out.<P>When we attempted reconciliation, and her heart was only in it for a week, it merely confirmed my suspicions that we were done.<BR>When she got back with om after talking so negatively, I decided I had had enough and restarted the divorce papers she had begun.<P>As others have said, everyone has to set their own limits. I could only take 5-6 rejections. Some times I wonder if I had done a better job at Plan A would she have stayed, but other times I know it didn't matter.<P>So I say to each his own. I am growing and bettering myslef for me and whom ever else comes along.<P>May God Bless us all for our decisions!<P>Bob<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger<P>

OK..now I just have to ask. I thought about this since I first read this thread, but kept my typing fingers to myself.<P>It is none of my business and I am not trying to make a judgement here, but you getting a little judgemental yourself, so I just gotta ask.<P>You recently posted you were still sleeping with your H even though the divorce was going through. With your attitude, what is your motivation in sleeping with your ex?<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Rachel, Sorry if you feel we are all so stupid for doing what we believe is right. If we all knew the “correct” way of going down this path, then most of us wouldn’t be here to begin with. We are here to give each other support. Plan A/B are proven methods of getting through an affair with the least amount of pain & resentment. Still doesn’t mean it won’t hurt though.<P>Sounds like you’re extremely bitter. You have a right to be. Please don’t be mad at us for doing the same thing you did for 8+ months. If you wanna scream and yell about your ex here, go for it. Don’t scream and yell at us because it didn’t work out for you.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

FHL and Chris: Excellent points.. I would be interested in knowing Cams answers to FHL'S question.

In answer to FHL's question.. my Ex and I slept together twice. It has been almost 2 months since the last time... and as far as I am concerned.. it will not happen again. My motivation for agreeing to sleep with him was simply power. I now have some power in terms of OW's view of him. It meant more to me a month ago. Now, I pretty much don't care.. optherwise I would have told her. So...was it the right decision at the time.. absolutely! Now, I have no interest in repeating that scenario. Hope that cures the wondering bug for all of you!<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

The way I looked at it when I found out about my H's affair was this: <P>If he was sick with a high fever and was lying on the bed thrashing, screaming and maybe even striking out at me, I would be patient and loving towards him, realizing he was not in his right mind. If he got well and still chose to lie in the bed, thrashing and screaming, I would leave pretty fast. <BR>When H was having the affair, I could tell that he was not easy and comfortable in his mind. The vows said "in sickness and in health", so I figured this was the sickness part. We lived through the withdrawal phase and I held on for the year that he was still deciding if it was preferable to be married or to be single. I was nearing the end of my endurance, but about a month ago he started apologizing to me and I could tell that for once he knew it was THE TRUTH. He finally understood what damage had been done to our marriage by the affair. I finally understood that I was partly responsible for the state of our marriage before the affair, but not at all for the affair.<P>Things have been very good since then. Lots of love deposits and few withdrawals. We are having fun again! The other day, he asked me why I hadn't given up on him and I told him that I kept remembering how happy we were for 16 years and what a neat life we had. It was really hard for me to get over this because we had been each other's only lover until the affair. There were times that I was so hurt and felt so left behind and alone that I really wanted "to show him how it feels", but I didn't. I truly believe that only God could have made me open and able to learn and grow this much, but as we all know, everything is possible with Him.

llll<p>[This message has been edited by Samantha-MI (edited February 01, 2000).]

You want to talk about God and sin, then try "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"<BR>I do hope and pray your pain ends soon honestly it dose suck to hurt and I wish that pain on no one.<P>------------------<BR>"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and<BR> lean not unto thine own understanding." -Proverbs 3:5<BR>Take care and God Bless.<P> lms20ish@jobe.net

camarinick<P>i remember the day you came to these boards. i am sorry that you are feeling like you are. i am sorry that you, your children or your husband has had to go through any of this. i am mostly sorry though for your bitterness. that is the saddest part of this all.<P>you claim to have moved on and are in a better place than the rest of us here. farther into recovery. i can not help but wonder if you have recovered at all? you talk much about what God wants. what is right in His eyes. bitterness is not among that. the Lord warns us of bitterness. you hold and have held much bitterness sense you first became aware of your husband's affair. if you truly search the bible it clearly states what marriage is about and what it should be. please read first Corinthians. there is a rhyme and reason for all aspects of marriage and one of those is forgiveness. forgiveness is necessary to allow a marriage to grow and prosper. bitterness prevents anyone from forgiving.<P>you have made some pretty harsh judgments about all of us. i don't know where you think it fits in God's plan to judge anyone. (yes i do realize that you probably think i am judging you here. rather it is just making my own observations.) you seem to want everyone to feel as you do. it appears that you want to squash all the hopes of newbies here. <P>let me tell you something, this is a marriage builders site. the objective here is to restore marriages. just because your marriage failed and you refused to bend does not give you the right to come here and try and prevent others who have hope or who are trying to grasp at hope. there is a saying that misery loves company, does that apply to you?<P>you have been angry from the very beginning when you started posting here. i am not saying you don't have the right to be angry. we all have the right to be angry and all of us at one time or another have been. many of us realize though that the anger is getting us no where and we choose to give it up for the greater good of our marriages and ourselves. <P>i think that you have missed part of the recovery process that is essential and that is the mourning of the death of your marriage. <P>i do feel very sorry for you. i think that your attitude has been what has defeated you. in the meantime if you would refrain from trying to lead the flock here to your way of thinking it would be a compassionate thing to do.<P>you are spreading venom here. that isn't a Godly thing or a very humanistic thing. everyone here is on a different page, in a different chapter but, we are all in the same book.<P>while you are preaching of the good and evils of the right and wrongs you are missing a huge point. that is to do everything we do out of love. if the bible teaches us anything, it teaches us that if everything we do out of love then we are doing no harm and we are doing it with a clean heart.<P>i can't imagine that you are feeling very good right now in many aspects of your life. i am so sorry for that. i pray for your complete and total recovery for you. i pray that you realize how you are effecting others. i pray for your husband, your children and you to be healed of all this pain. mostly i pray though that the good Lord removes this bitterness in your heart. i think that alone is your biggest obstacle right now.<P>obviously this is an anonymous name for me here. i chose to reply to your post here in this disguise so as not to insight a war here on this much needed board. i do not want to cause anyone any grief, nor do i want to get into heated discussions with anyone here about any of this. i have made many valuable friends here. i don't want to get angry at them and i don't want them to become angry with me. i just felt that i could not let another day go by with you spreading such gloom and doom here. i know this will not stop you from doing it. this is a board where anyone has the freedom to post. i just hope this makes you realize that you are harming people with your negative postings. <P>please try not to forget that this board is set up to support those of us who are trying to salvage our marriages or to support those of us who have been unable to do that. we the people here need love and support. we have all come here out of some desperation or another. being desperate does not make us weak, it makes us human.<P>as far as what is wrong with this world, it is how our society has gotten to be such a "me" society. everything anymore is about "me"! what i can do to make "me" happy. what i can do to satisfy "me". what i can do to get me the immediate results i seek to full fill "me". if we would all just start thinking of others instead of "me" first then, this would be a better world and i suspect the rate of infidelity would go way down.<P>

You are right, Mystery. This IS a board for healing of marriages. This is not a place to condone infidelity and allow endless months and years to go by without betrayers having consequences for their actions. Although everyone here has good intentions of restoring their marriages, they are really only detroying themselves in the process.... by letting their cheating spouses carry on without any threat of consequence. Yes, marriage is hard and every effort should be given to make it work... but it has to be desired by BOTH parties. And one party should not allow the sin to go on under the guise of "trying to save the marriage" If these betrayers wanted to save the marriage, they would have when the affair was discovered. It is not an "illness". It is a choice. A selfish choice. As far as me being "recovered". No, I am not fully recovered, but I am well into it. I am comfortable with myself and my new life. And I only wish that some of you would come out of your haze and see how much better things could be if you moved on, let the consequences come for your spouses, and live again. I know how it felt to wait, to wonder, to want. But, at a certain point, I needed to look at what was going on and re-examine what kind of person I married. That was when I realized that sometimes, love isn't everything. Sometimes, people are selfish and no amount of Plan A or Plan B will change that. My children would have suffered if I had "waited" any longer. And so would I. I wish you all the best. I wish you all some clarity.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Rachel,<BR>My H is dealing with the consequences of his affair. He has no home to call his own, his children don't care if they see him at this time, he has no transportation, and can't get a loan to get anything else to drive. Those are consequences.

Avenge not thyselves, for vengence is mine saith the Lord!<P><BR><B> Sometimes, people are selfish and no amount of Plan A or Plan B will change that.</B> <P>Very true, and this may very well be the case in your former marriage, but not in all cases. And especially not the case for all those on the recovery board.<P><B>And I only wish that some of you would come out of your haze and see how much better things could be if you moved on</B><P>Why do you continue to insult our intelligence? I think that all the people on this board are intelligent and wise enough to make that decision for themselves without destroying their lives. <P>I'm happy to hear that you are moving on and well into recovery. Can you just a least say something positive for a chance and stop telling everyone to move on? Geesh! <P> <P><P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Rachel,<P>I was going to post to you earlier, as a matter of fact I did. I tried to delete it and that is not an option for us any longer. So instead I just replaced it with L's<P>I am now offended. How dare you! You are insulting our intelligence. Who are you to judge our intelligence.<P>You have moved on. I am pleased for you. I question whether you are happy or not? You say you are content with your new life. Great. While your being content with your new life I will happily snuggle with my betraying husband. Whom I planned A with all of my might, coupled with the strength only God could have given me.<P>There are plenty of success stories on this board. There are even some renewing of marriages here in the archives after divorce. There have been many betrayers who have had no intentions of ever returning to their marriage and trying to make it work. Yet by some miracle they end up back in those marriages and are happy. <P>Everyone here is doing their best to make their marriages work. The are doing all they can and doing what is best for them. They are pulling from every possible place they can the strength they need to accomplish that goal. So, why do you feel it is necessary to pull them into your way of thinking? That is how you feel and right for you evidentially. They are doing what is right for them at this time in their lives.<P>No one here is condoning the "sin" of infidelity. All are fighting against it. They are not destroying themselves in the process. They are growing and learning. If their marriages don't work out they will at least be able to look at themselves in the mirror with pride and respect and know that they did everything they could do.<P>Infidelity is not an illness and it is a choice. It is a disease though. One that needs to be combated with what ever it takes to try and defeat it.<P>You say <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If these betrayers wanted to save the marriage, they would have when the affair was discovered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My husband upon discovery did not want to save the marriage. He wanted to be with the OW. He also wanted to raise our daughter and do what was best for her. So, I was blessed and he stayed and ended the affair. It wasn't a sudden ending as he kept contact with her but he no longer was involved physically in an intimate way with her. It took a long time before he quit talking to her and finally changed jobs and shifts so he wouldn't have to see her everyday. She still is special to him. He loved her. <P>Now he is falling back in love with me and he does love me. We are happier than we have been in years. This all happened because I plan A'd my bottom off. I worked as hard as I could to change the things that were wrong with me and to meet his emotional needs. He is now happy with me. He likes the person I have become and the renewal of the woman he originally fell in love with. He is not with the OW he is with me. Is it perfect yet? No but we are doing our level best to get there. We are approaching the one year anniversary of discovery. He is taking me on a wonderful vacation in 10 days. I am blessed and lucky. More than anything I am appreciative. <P>There are others here who have betrayers who don't end the affair upon discovery. They do not want to work on their marriages. That is how they feel at the moment. That may not be how they will feel in the near or far future. I think you should read Lotsva reply to the following link. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000431.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000431.html</A> She is the epitome of what plan A is about. She gets it. She is getting really close to being in the recovery forum. She is an inspiration to all of us. <P>I think Jamie Lee just said it best... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why do you continue to insult our intelligence? I think that all the people on this board are intelligent and wise enough to make that decision for themselves without destroying their lives. <P>I'm happy to hear that you are moving on and well into recovery. Can you just a least say something positive for a chance and stop telling everyone to move on? Geesh! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There are no right or wrongs here in how people do what they <B>need</B> to do to attempt to and to save their marriages. We are all individuals and every situation though they may seem similar are unique. So how each and every one of us deal with our situations is not a right or wrong. They are not allowing a sin but trying to stop it and prevent it from ever happening again. Why do you think what is right for you is right for all or any of us?<P>I do not think you get it. I do not think you will ever get it. I hope someday you do. No one seems to be able to get through to you. You don't have anything positive to say. I will echo Jamie Lee and say <B> At least quit telling every one to move on.</B> If they need to move on they will do it when it is right for them and they will know when that time is.<P>I am going to try my best to stay away from your posts. They insight such anger in me. I cannot believe that you do not realize what this kind of posting will do to the new members to this board. I guess you just don't care? I assume you only want people to choose the same path you have chosen. I cannot imagine why but, that is how is appears to be.<P>Good luck with your new life. May God bless you and your family. I hope someday you feel his wonderful peace and have happiness oouze out of every one of your pores. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't loose. What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B>

Rachel:<P>I'm going to be very blunt here---not to enlighten you (I gave up on that a long time ago), but to illustrate for others who read this what went on (IMO).<P>You never did Plan A. Ever. You filed for divorce very early. You couldn't stick to a consistant message, other than "punishment" for your husband, and the desire to see him crawling back to you. You NEVER did the work that the "MarriageBuilders" principles would have led you to. <P>The bottom line is, from your own admission, your husband's affair is over now (well within the Harley "2-year" usual timeframe). And guess what---he doesn't want the marriage. He prefered divorce.<P>You can whine about his lack of morals, committment, his poor behaviors, etc. And it may all be true. BUT, you had an opportunity to save your marriage (through the use of plan A), and you squandered it. In spite of all the advice I and others gave you---you did it your own way. And you're divorced now, and extremely bitter. <P>If you want to complain about divorce, and whine about your husband---that's fine. Do it here, we will listen and you will get sympathy. But to come here and trash the MarriageBuilder principles that you never used, and to say that the path you went down was true "marriagebuilding"---leave it at the door. If you can't, I'd prefer to see you never post here. Your posts are distracting, damaging and they anger those who may be trying to work on their marriages. And they waste my time, because when this crap comes out from your posts, I feel the responsibility to put it in proper light.<P>I truly hope that you REALLY recover from this is a healthy way, for your sake as well as for that of your children.

camarinick,<P>I happen to agree with much of what you are saying, I think it's just the way you're saying it that is off-putting. Although because of the devastating position you're in now, I can't say I blame you for it.<P>In my own position, I had to take "as much as I could take" before the last straw broke that camel's back. If I had given up one second earlier, in my own mind I would have pined away perhaps indefinitely. But I definitely could not have been condoning of my husband's affair, and wasn't. That doesn't mean I didn't try my hardest for the marriage or that I didn't give "Plan A" (which I didn't know about at that time, yet still implemented it) the sufficient amount of time. When my husband wanted to skirt between the OW and myself, I couldn't allow it. My mother and father had and still have a very strong marriage, and they are both very respecting of one another (they've been married 45 years) and I grew up seeing that their marriage was loving, yet neither one would be disrespectful. I had ideals of marriage, and I don't think those ideals were fantasy, I had seen many people with good and solid marriages, and when my husband told me of his affair, I was not going to take responsibility for his actions and then proceed to reward him for choosing to have an affair! This last sentence seems to really get to some people, because they don't quite understand that lying, cheating, disrespecting and emotional abuse does NOT constitute love. I didn't yell and scream when I found out and I did suggest counseling to my husband, but he didn't want any part of it. I finally realized that no matter how hard we would love to orchestrate another's actions and feelings, we cannot. We can love them back, but what if there are no signs of their return? Yes, there are those who reconcile, but there are so many issues to deal with such as trust, it would take a spouse who is 100% willing to work on it and show remorse to be able for the marriage to be repaired, IMO. I am all for marriage recovery, and my husband and I are trying to recover, because he has finally shown (after months of separation) that he wants to make our marriage work, yet I'm cautiously optimistic. I will take responsibility for my part in the disintigration of the marriage (my husband says that there are 3 things that contributed - too much time spent with kids, controlling (because I wanted to know where he was until 1:00 a.m), and smothering). Well, I have given him the space he wants and am becoming independent as well, but when does it come down that perhaps their personality and character are such that they will never be quite happy unless they are singles living as marrieds? I do see that some will say that the betrayers (not the ones wanting their marriages and working on them, I honestly believe some do make bad choices and this only happens once) are just going through fantasy land, but what if this is just someone's character? No one wants to believe this to be the case I think. Sorry, usually a lurker, but this kind of struck a chord.

In reponse to K especially, I actually DID do Plan A before I made the decision to file for divorce. And to correct you, my X is STILL living with OW. SO, no, the affair is not over. You have all made your choice. And actually I AM basking in my own peace and the new life I am building for myself. I grieve for some of you that you haven't been able to find that. I know that I did the right thing in getting on with my life and not allowing my X to continue his affair and have me also. Having his cake and eating it too, is never an option. I only hope that some of you wil discover that before it is too late.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>