So, this is the question. How does this make you feel uncomfortable. And what is the reason it is unnerving to think about your husband looking at pornographic material?

Do you think it makes him a pervert, or a cheater, to be looking at naked people and doing all kinds of things. It has become a huge seller. And there is no limits to what folks will do on the other side of that camera!

Wonder how much you would get paid to take it all off and do all that , boy. It probably is not much money for the "star" of the picture, hmmm.

But, good or bad or dont even care...Lets here your own opinions...

My H doesn't look at porn...not like I do. I don't go to porn to give me what a human being cannot. Nope, I will ask my H for sf or flirt or try and put a seed in his head to do it.
It is after a week or two of frustration that I will find myseld looking at porn to enhance my fantasies.
I hoenstly cannot see how someone can get addicted to it, nothing beats the feeling of sensual warm flesh, in my ever-so-humble-opinion.
Yup, take that over a video any day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thank-you for your honesty, Carina. Personally, I can not even bring myself to buy one at the store. It has to do with humility as well.

It is a societal acceptance however, there is no doubt about that. And is it pushed to the public? You bet. Every add you look at, and even ladies home magazines and beautifying mags. All have gone down the path of selling hot, raunch sex. Unbelievable.

You don't need to go behind the stands anymore, check out Cosmo, Glamour, Redbook, even some of the traditionally mild mags have hot sex titles with explicit descriptions as to what to do and what your man wants. But some of it is giving bad advice as well.

Interesting that I do want to see what it is about, but when I read it it is mostly a huge let down.

I think also, would I want my daughter to get this kind of advice, or my son to feel this way about women. Wheewww. It makes you think when you are in the know as to what truly makes a "relationship" tick.

It is not all of the bells and whistles that they advertise man.

the idea of it USED to bother me ALOT.
since, i have tried to understand it does not bother me quite as much. sometimes.
interesting, isn't it?

what used to both me about it?
it did make me feel insecure.
i though it was all about him wanting someone else. i felt like it was a direct hit on my own sexuality.
it made me feel used. like he wanted someone else....but settled for me.....because i happened to be there, and was willing.
it made me feel undesirable.
and, we established yesterday on Daisy's thread that we all want to be DESIRED by our spouse.

I came up with an idea you may or may not agree with. But it is just a theory.

Men enjoy porn due to it is a security issue for them. It is visual and it makes them feel like a man. It makes them horny, hard and want sex.

Is it insecurity that makes a person need pornographic material? Maybe it is one reason anyway.

And they aren't replacing the wife, but it "feels" like it to the wife.

Oh, Wflower..
you are very right. my husband admitted THAT.
it was all based on his need to feel WANTED....DESIRABLE........ACCOMPLISHED.
and habit.

he said last year that he doesn't masturbate to it any more...since we have become more open and he feels he know's he is pleasing me sexually.
yet, there is still a turn on to it.
and i can understand that.
and that does still make me feel compared and insecure at times.....but,
i am still not going to set mself up to be lied to by telling him he CAN NOT ever look at it again.
the thought that he felt he nneded to lie to me about it is far more painful than my feeling insecure about it.
that and the fact that he disreguarded my feelings completely.

I think a major struggle with women and porn is that we do not think the same way as men. A woman who cannot look at porn and detach herself emotionally and from reality assumes that her H cannot, either. She projects her perspective/feelings on him.

I wasn't raised believing porn was such a bad thing. Yes, I think it is extremely degrading now and would rather it not be advertised so heavily in our society; but, I didn't always make it that far in the thought process until recently. Porn seemed normal to me. Just like alcohol and cigarettes, once you were a certain age, you were somehow entitled to it. It sat mysteriously on the top shelf in the liquor store, convenience stores, and even book stores. If it was so bad, why is it in a book store?!? But, of course, I now think cigarettes are the most disgusting, vile, abominable creation and yet it is distributing almost everywhere. I think because of that socialization, I have the ability to look at it in some of the same ways that guys do...without the emotion, without the real desire, but rather just for the mystery and an underlying thrill.

Sure, I still have the regular female insecurities and need to be desired. That is what has created a struggle for me and probably why some people see me as contradicting myself. I am. I am feeling like there is something wrong with it inherently, but when I look at it, it's just not that big of a deal. It's normal. It's on the shelves in bookstores (actually, I don't know if they still do this...maybe not, but I definitely remember seeing them in the mall bookstores when I was growing up).

Someone said on the other post that I was saying this to prove some kind of superiority. Not at all. I'm saying it because I'm feeling and thinking it. Because I think this is what has allowed me to accept it. Pretty much all of our feelings are bred out of our early socialization, and this one is no exception, IMHO.

Smile

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

I wanted to address the shame issue. It is a valid point. It is like we are taught a lot of very good things growing up. And then when we are learning about sex, it seems to be more difficult, due to all of the taboos associated with sex. The strict upbringing of no sex before marriage. And the curiosity factor is, big!

What I am trying to say is that sometimes rigid rules will back fire. We want sex, masterbation naturally or something and then we are told that it is exclusively for married people and we do it before marriage anyway, cause how else are you supposed to learn? Guilty feelings started young!

But the glitch is now we have all of this material at our fingertips, and there is no one to say you can't. So, folks do. And it becomes habit, and when you are married, it hurts to think that you cant get there without going to the porn and cheap stupid flicks out there, or wired right to your cable!

It seems shameful, and it is such a place for contradictions.

Think about how you felt when you were pregnant, and then he was looking at porn. OUCH. There is a lot of hurt in that feeling.

Smile....i feel very similar.

i have been able to look at it and understand the sexual thrill etc. and not feel the insecurity and shame. but, it always seems to creep back.
i grew up w/ shame.
i knew my brothers had porn magazines when i was a little girl (they are much older than i was)and i remember my mother throeing a fit when she found them and annoucing how discracful they were and that she thre them away.
but,
i always remember feeling like.....men like something about women like that. it was so confusing.
i didn't think i had such a problem w/ it either.......'till i tried to watch it w/ my now H and i just couldn't.
so, i still struggle w/ what exactly i do feel about it.

wflower..you make excellent point about sex and the conflicting messages we grew up with. it's great.....it's normal.......it's wrong...it's dirty....it's your duty......it's ok if you are inlove.......but only if you are married......then throw feminism into the mix........as if that's not confusing enough w/o involving sex!

I posted on Smiles' thread as a generalization of what I thought nelly was asking, but I will post here about my OWN feelings.

My feelings really are very similiar to nelly's. I feel that his "need"/want to look at porn is a direct hit on me and my sexuality, as she said. The women ARE so beautiful, and seem more perfect than I could ever be. I see how turned on he gets by it, and it makes me feel so inadequate. I can't imagine how he COULDN'T be comapring me, since I am the one he is having "actual" sex with. I've heard a lot of men who have affairs say how much they get caught up in comparing the OW to their W's, and that is my fear with pornography. I could never measure up to them. I don't spend 8 hours a day in the gym, or only have H see me in certain poses that are very sexual and flattering, or have my pictures airbrushed. I would have to have my nose done, lose 10 pounds, get more toned, have longer hair and dye it blonde, have a make up artist and a hair stylist fix me up everyday. It's unachievable, for the most part. He sees me when I wake up in the morning, when I'm sick or cranky or devastated..or giving birth. He has seen me at some of my worst, most vulnerable times. And I feel that him turning to porn is turning away from me and all of my imperfections and vulnerabilities, and turning towards "perfection" to satisfy him. And I could never do that.

So that's why it bothers me, aside from the addictive aspect, which ups the pain factor about 10 times.

Here is another reason women do not like porn for men, our husbands in particular. Jealousy?

Do men buy it to read the articles, what Miss September's goals are in life! Oh ok, honey. And how about that you have a daughter this age, okay. Is that weird enough? I just don't think an aging man looking at this is attractive either.

So, is it something to be ashamed of. And why are men so secretive about this to their wife?

Smile said;
A woman who cannot look at porn and detach herself emotionally and from reality assumes that her H cannot, either. She projects her perspective/feelings on him.

Wflower says;
And I do not think that women have any problem with discerning reality from the porn Smile! I grew up a long time ago. And being married and with children may seem like a make believe game but it is not. And of course how I feel about issues is obvious to someone,(my husband), you have shared every last thing with.

And also, how he feels about me looking at porn is actually quite the same. If I am looking at the men, he feels jealous. That does not mean you are evil if you feel jealous. It means you are human and you want your spouse all for yourself. And that is how it is with me and mine.

Problems do not just go away. And wishing and trying to make your husband do anything is not going to change him or you. You need to be able to talk about all of this stuff, and trying not to use DJ's, and all of those LB's that were formerly available to the marriage, before MB that is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wflower says;
And I do not think that women have any problem with discerning reality from the porn Smile!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This misses my point. My point was that women do not always think the same way as men do. So, whatever thoughts she is having (issues of reality was just an example) may be projected onto her H so that she cannot accept that he is not seeing it the same way.
Sure, this might not be an issue between you and your H, but I KNOW it's an issue for many women because I have seen it and discussed it first hand with them (although not necessarily on the subject of porn). And it's just a big of an issue for men who simply cannot see things the way their W does. It's the whole Mars/Venus shindig.

Smile

OK, most women can admit (I think) that they dont like their guy looking at a fully clothed hotsy-totsy woman walking down the street. I'd have a reflex-type reaction, a flash of anger that I couldnt control if I wanted to, and he'd get a punch in the shoulder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Wouldnt most women not be happy about that?

So why would I, or any women, want my H to look at a totally naked woman, while having an Orgasm without me?

It's a very basic, hard-wired instinct, jealously and possessiveness. No one wants to 'loose a mate', and the first step is the 'looking', isnt it? No one wants to share a mate, especially sexually. Ok, ok, it's only pictures, but you can see where this comes from. It's human instinct.

INSTINCTUALLY "so he cant leave me for the picture" but, the W thinks, he'll decide he can do better, or if commitment is weak, just move on (not a real woman talking, but our little brains reflex)...

the outrage, yes outrage, is that porn has been socialized in American Society. What would have been appalling and unacceptable just 30 years ago, has been presented as 'the norm', by the MEN in control, the MEN who use it and the MEN who make money from it! The Man Show Mentality has taken over American Society, and we're gonna pay for it!!!

AGAIN, I'm not anti-porn, but I see have we have been PUSHED to accept it as commonplace in our society! It's obsene, and I dont think any one wants their children to grow up with the 'porn is dandy' message

Women are STILL not majority in American business. Men have been in control since the Mayflower, women just in the last 50 years have been getting a foothold. This is the reality of women in business, not a feminist statement. It's just the way it's been.

You cant watch TV anymore in mixed company. Flip channels and you've got some hoochie wearing a thong, shaking her but into the camera. These used to be called whores and sluts. Simpsons, Futurama, and lots of 'prime time supposedly OK for children' tv shows have refered, some repeatedly, to porn and mastbtion. PRIME TIME! This is what your kids are watching. Before long, our daughters are gonna think it's cool! Remember when Richard Pryor was 'unbelievably dirty'. Standard fare, now...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wonder how much you would get paid to take it all off and do all that , boy. It probably is not much money for the "star" of the picture, hmmm </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A couple of grand. Not any better than a prostitute, sex for money. - Dru

As far as how we feel about sex and about ourselves with sex issues, I think how we were raised is a big part of what goes through our heads now. I posted my opinion on some ways that I think our socialization may be affecting our views on porn and sexuality in general over at Understand "regular" porn use.

The main example I give is how our views on sexuality differ from general views on sexuality in Europe. We are extremely conservative compared to France.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">by smile: I wasn't raised believing porn was such a bad thing.... porn seemed normal to me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SAD... very Sad who's raising our children????

Wasnt the point of porn that is was 'naughty'. It's not even that, anymore.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a very basic, hard-wired instinct, jealously and possessiveness. No one wants to 'loose a mate', and the first step is the 'looking', isnt it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are right that jealousy and possessiveness are instinctive, but I don't think what each of us perceives as the "first step" is necessarily instinctive. I think that comes from what we see, are told, and experience. And what we see, are told, and experience varies by family, by culture, by era, etc. That is learned.

So while instinctively I feel the need to be protective and clingy, it's not outside of reason to use logic to keep myself happy and comfortable with what is going on in my relationship. Guys face the other end of the spectrum. Instinctively, they want to pork every beautiful creature that moves so as to spread their seed; however, they have learned that they cannot do that...it is socially unacceptable. I think the female instincts have to take the cake. The population is already growing way too quickly for our resources...it's a darned good thing men don't get everything their instincts drive them toward!

Smile

Mars/venus...
good point.
and mg if you can manage to try to seperate the 2 and understand that it COULD be all about the sexual thrill for your H and not about desiring something perfect, i think it might help you feel a little better about it.
atleast for a little while.
i can do it.....but, the insecurity and shame does creep back.....i agree...it's societal...but, it's also my reality.

it would be so nice if men would take the time to try to understand what we feel because of the shame society has reeped on us about our sexuality.
but again, they see things very differenttly.

i loved what MG had to say about the gross guys in porn. i so agree...they skeeve me.....i really wonder if men could relate to us better if the tables were TURNED in that area.
i think they might, a little.
but, the sexual thrill would still be there......seperate from the intimacy. maybe if we can look at it from this perspective, w/o having to compare ourselves to perfection.. we can understand it better.

but then...there is still jelousy.
not just for the looks but for the attitude of sexually uninhibited and confident etc.
we still have to deal w/ that when it comes to porn. don't we?
he doesn't care if SHE's faking it. in his mind, she's fabulous.

It is not so cut and dry as anyone would wish it to be. And the fact is that it is seemingly something that one is trying to convince herself that it is just to be accepted. Why, because he has this habit. But habits can change.

Frankly, I do not care what Joe shmoe looks at. What I care about is that sanctity of marriage in these walls is maintained. And when we hear tell of a man discreetly "using" porn, well just what is using porn anyhow, and discreetly, that means, sneaking? And how you will keep tabs on that, I would not even venture to guess.

But, all men and women here have seen this material. And I use the term material ever so lightly.

But there are wonderful alternatives, like informative films, and massage techniques, learning pressure points, and reading about the aging body is a big one. When you reach the mid years, you can really have somethings to talk over. Why this or that isn't working in the plumbing, but there is material that has factual things and medical things are dealt with.

I like the joke Rodney Dangerfield had, "These days I take milk of magnesia and viagra.And I don't know whether I am coming or going!"

It helps to keep a sense of humor about it all though doesn't it?

And being able to talk about ones insecurities which I think permeates this topic on both sides, more than we realize, the talking and the listening-exchanging your real feelings, is very good to do.

i am not trying to convince myself that it is ok or that i NEED to accept it.
i am trying to UNDERSTAND the appealand his reasons for being drawn to it etc.etc..... so i can discuss it compassionately and maturely.

i would appreciate it if men would do the same for us.
mine has been making that effort....but, they are thickheaded. VENUS/MARS...remember?

NO, it is NOT cut and dry, at all.
that is an important fact to remember.

how do you all feel about educational sex films?
not the standard male inspired porn flicks......but, movies that are educational and designed for us to understand our own bodies and our partners bodies and learn to be uninhibibted enough to explore.....yet, still contain naked people having sexual relations and close ups of as mg is fond of saying....slimy genitals? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

i have never seen any myself, but i don't feel nearly as threatend by them as i do playboy.
hmmmm?

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>