Nelly...I'm not sure why you are apologizing. And this can continue to be a productive thread. I've had a difficult time with Drucilla feeilng the need to attack me in past threads. She can attack all she wants at this point, I will not be responding to that, anymore.

Continue with the thread. If my perspective is not wanted, I can leave, but I don't think that is the case. I think this is a case of Drucilla having a difficult time communicating her opinions respectfully. I'll be heading out of town in about an hour anyhow and not back until very late Sunday night. I can use the break from the attacks, anyway.

Have a great weekend.
Smile

smile
from various threads:

[quote]
1) What about when you have children? (I always knew where my dad hid his porn. Kids find everything!)

2) You refere to
1: (2) ONS's
2: that he would not stop the porn even if you asked (read: WHEN/IF it DOES become a problem, he's already told you he wont stop)
3: he's told you that he needs variety (read: not ready to settle down and be married)
4: he's already having addiction problems with computer games (porn is lots more fun than games)
5: you find the videos on his computer DISGUSTING (that's not a casual user if he's already into the freaky stuff)
6: you think his knowledge of porn stars is DISTRUBING
How long a list are you looking for before you decide he's not the guy for you?

3Would you please read something on this? Patrick Carnes has two books, find in the selfhelp/addiction section of any major book store. It will better explain why these actions of your bf are already trouble, and how it runs it's course.

4 Have you two done an pre-marital MC?

5 If he's already sooo into it now, how do you think he'll respond when your pregnant and cant have sex for 3 months?

6 Or for the 6 months after birth, when you're exhausted and you're only having sex once a week?

7 How will you feel when you are pregnant and gained 40lbs knowing he's still looking at naked 18yo girls?

8 How about when YOU are 40yo and he's still looking at naked 18yo girls?

9 Question: would you want your lovely daughter to marry someone as you've described?

10 How are you going to feel in 10/15/20 years when he's still looking at naked 18yo's and having sexual fantisies and mstbtng while you are at work? (asked again since you didnt answer the first time)

11 How are you going to feel when you're raising children, and your bf is still acting like a horny 22 yo? Have you ever read marriedgirls posts?

12 did you ask him what is he going to tell his 11yo son when he catches him using internet porn? Is he going to have the attitude that it's cool and no problem? Or is he going to say it's wrong and inappropriate? If he answers No Problem, then is that the man you want raising your son? If he answers it's wrong, then why is your bf doing it now? Ask your bf what will he tell his 12yo daughter when she says 'all the kids do it'?

13 Did you read my last thread about just wanting to keep someone from living the pain that a lot of us had to endure?

...I eventually stopped asking. I have seen you make statements in recent threads that seem like you've considered my questions. But at the time, ignored... and I make an assumption as to why... I'm sticking by them.

I cant believe I got sucked into another porn thread with smile. Bye! - Dru

~not sure that i want to get into the middle of this~ but i just can't seem to stop myself...

hypothetically... why is it that smile has been "convinced" by society that porn is normal and that dru has not been convinced by society that porn is not normal? (not saying that either of you ladies are convinced about something by anything)

it seems that the assumption that society has attempted to "convince" "reasonable women" that porn is normal.

maybe, it's society that has been trying to convince people that porn is not normal.

if one traces human sexuality and society- it would be apparent that particular "societies" have attempted to stifle and repress human sexuality (especially female sexuality). human sexuality has been far from "nice" and far from "controlled" regardless of whether or not porn is present. (is the karma sutra pornography)

there was a time when pics of unclothed indigenous-tribal women in National Geographic were considered "obscene". i don't see how that could be considered "reasonable". in fact, you'll find that porn exists primarily in these historically "sexually repressed" societies.

and in the recent past, it wasn't that women necessarily "objected" to porn- it's more that it wasn't "discussed" or brought to the women's attention. people were very discrete about their sexual business- and women were convinced that sex was primarily for procreation- not enjoyment. that a woman was a "slut" if she enjoyed sex.

Dru, that's enough. I answered many of those questions and didn't respond to many because they are completely hypothetical and I cannot always answer hypothetical. I DID think about them and discussed some of them with my BF. I really hope you can find something better to do with your time than look at my posts back that far. The fact that you didn't provide my responses in this incredible compilation of your questions doesn't mean I didn't respond. I think everyone here can fairly confidently say that I respond when people ask me questions. And I do my best to be respectful and honest.

And even if I didn't respond to those questions (which I do remember doing), I specifically said you have asked no direct questions in this thread. I haven't communicated with you in at least several weeks if not longer because the last time you directed a post at me you called me a fake, fraud and/or a troll. You can be pretty sure I won't be communicating with you for at least that much longer. Keep it up and you'll be hearing from the mods. You are rude and nasty to me and it is uncalled for.

Smile

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

well, i do not think of kama sutra as pornography.
i do think it's pretty cool.

i think the big issue here is that porn often tends to come between a man and his wife.
it can drive a man away from his wife and vice versa in many different ways......often stated on this board.

but, i do believe that many of the reasons that happens in the first place have to do w/ socital issues.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

smile...i wasn't apologizin exactly..i was saying that i am dissappointed.
i am dissapointed that this has happened again.

Nelly...point taken.
I won't taint your threads, anymore.
I wouldn't want to disappoint any of the women here who need me to agree with them or get lost.

smile...
i don't know if i understood your post...
i meant dissapointed that you are being attacked over this again and that it seems we can not have a conversation about this topic where that does not happen.
you didn't taint anything as far as i am concearned.
and i really appreciated your first thread........i hate it when threads turn into arguments over what somebody think the other one meant and all the reposting.
i think it is non-productive. i usually duck out when that starts.

i really hope you have a great week-end!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong>men view porn whether spend money on videos and magazines, buy sex (I think this is farely rare, but do not know),or get it off the Internet (the number one thing searched for online is porn).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I'll agree that porn was the rocket engine driving the success of the internet, and of VCR sales in the 70s & 80s ... it's been out there long before the electronic age, and long before the printed word.

Thousands of years ago, it was carved from stone and painted on cave walls.

And the question that comes to my mind is this: in the days when women were probably more lean & muscular & athletic than the average american woman of the 21st Century, the cave paintings & primitive carvings were female figures with large breasts & bulging (pregnant?) stomachs. Do you suppose that our primitive ancestors had the same sorts of insecurities that today's women have about body image vs. porn?

In other words ... do you suppose Groggette sat around the fire at night talking with her girlfriends and saying things like "Grogg certainly seems mesmerized by that carving of the fertility goddess. I wonder if he's no longer happy with me because I'm thin & my boobs don't sag like hers do?"

thanks Dan-O.
you validated the point that society causes our insecurities.
in some cultures,...i don't even want to get into it......but, the strangest things are considered sexy or desirable........why?? because somebody said so way back when their sexuality was just startin' to come into bloom.
back when they were about 2.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>thanks Dan-O.
you validated the point that society causes our insecurities.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ummmm .. you're welcome. I think.

I dunno. I didn't do it on purpose.

And at the same time, I'm not ready to buy into the 'society causes our insecurities' concept. Maybe it does for more people than I realize. Maybe I'm just too darn arrogant to buy into what society says is the ideal to set aside my own ideas & preferences. Maybe I've just been too busy giving society the finger to notice.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">in some cultures,...i don't even want to get into it......but, the strangest things are considered sexy or desirable.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, I take it you won't be inseting some huge hunk of bamboo in your nose or pulling out your front teeth anytime soon? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"porn" was carved into stones and painted on cave walls- good point-

you should see what's painted on the walls at Pompeii- they had really special windchimes and other decorations (in the shape of long tubular objects)...

not to mention those pagans dancing around large phallic symbols- carrying phallus statues- chanting (ever hear of the "maypole")... spilling seed all over the place for the harvest moon.

people have been portraying various aspects of the human body for centuries as a way to encourage reproduction- sheesh- people used to paint images on the walls of their homes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

about the whole body image thing-

i think that women's mags are far worse for female body perception.

i'm sure that a lot of you already know this- but voluptous women used to be considered sex symbols (marilyn monroe was not slender). fashion dsigners came to resent models getting more attention than their clothing lines. so they started hiring women afflicted w/ TB to model. the idea was that people would not be attracted to the model and pay more attention to the clothing. these women were called "human hangers". the real sad thing about this, was that all of these models eventually died due to their disease.

however, it backfired- people eventually started paying more attention to the model again and (sadly) people (mainly women) started associating this "thin" look w/ beauty, health and glamour. women attempted to achieve this look and so on into history...

the irony of it all- women are trying to achieve a "healthy" look that will eventually cause them to have serious health problems (anorexia, bulimia) and to die (remember our "hangers").

Dan-O, that was not early porn, but early teaching manuals! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But, those who had time to draw all of that silly/somewhat odd art, probably were not very functional if they had time to do that!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, back to the topic. I think that if you are concerned about at least your own children never mind the young literally girls in some of these porn things, you need to re-evaluate it. You can tell children it is debasing, degrading and terrible that people do this for a living, but if you are eating it all up, your lesson is not the one you say with your mouth.

You need to practice what you preach or your words are meaningless. If you think children do not see right through it, think again. You tell them don't drink alcohol, and then do it yourself, or don't argue with your sister, but you argue with your spouse, ....The true lesson is far more clear to them as to what their adult parents are about. And it is deceptive and lacking integrity.

So, to defend your usage of porn is pretty much null and void. Unless you just do not care what the children are learning out of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong>

I believe that most men, when confronted with an uncomfortable or angry wife, will learn to hide it and lie in order to keep the peace and keep doing what they want to. To believe that just by expressing your disapproval he will suddenly stop, for most women, is fooling themselves.
Smile</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Smile,

This I find interesting because this seems to be exactly what your plan is. Secure 5x as a H and worry about the porn later. I think you're under the false assumption that he will be willing to poja (enthusiastically) the discontinuation of porn use in the future. I just don't see that happening.

You use words and phrases like "tolerant" or "live with it". What happens when you are no longer tolerant? Do you really, honestly believe that 5x is going to simply stop viewing porn when you come to the realization that it is a threat to your M and family? Do you ever ask 5x if he is concerned how porn might affect your future M and family and in what ways might it have an affect? I think you're fooling no one but yourself.

You still seem very confused over this whole porn within the M issue. There is nothing "normal" about it. I honestly (no DJ here) hope you figure it out before you get M.

jmho
ba109

<small>[ October 11, 2003, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

Dan-O,

I loved the comment about snubbing society!!

I think that has helped me tremedously--I don't worry to much about what other people think anymore--

others call me Fanatical because of my beliefs and that's okay---I beleive what the Bible says..
and look at myself in terms of that--

I was fearfully and wonderfully made--

I was created in God's likeness--and to me that means..I am created in three parts..I have 1)Mind, 2) A Spirit, and 3) A body --and all are useless without the other--

God created me just as I am..flaws and all--
I've earned every grey hair on my head..the lines come by virtue of getting older--

I have learned that just as God did not create all humans the same color--he did not create them all the same size, hair color, or eye color--He created us all unique, and valuable in our own right..

a picture in a magazine only shows one aspect of the entire creation--the body--and porn movies
only show one aspect of what that body can do-- they do not show who the person behind the body really is--(as said previously it de-humanizes them)

How do you really know what that person is thinking as they are performing these acts??

They could be thinking--this is really gross, I really don't want to be doing this..but I have bill's to pay, and kids to feed and clothe--

They could also be thinking--'God I hope my dad or brother doesn't see this picture'

and I'm sure there are some who are thinking it really doesn't matter who see's the picture or movie--as they have no real understanding of their value as a whole person--they may feel glimpses from time to time--but push the thoughts aside, because they have never heard it from someone who really loves them---

So for me, the reasons porn bothers me--is that it only shares one part of the person--and how many men come to the belief that is how ALL women should be--one dimentional...admired for how their bodies look and what they can do, and nothing more--and they get upset that their wives or girlfriends aren't that way--

And many women get frustrated trying to meet this expecation--knowing they are MORE than just a body--they are a whole person--just as the women in the movies and magazines are--and there is no way they can truly become one-dimentional..and no reason why they should even want to try--as it will leave them feeling empty and worhtless--

I know, because I've tried to being that one-dimentional person..having no thoughts and feelings of my own--trying to please someone who doesn't understand women are more than that--just as men are--

TR quote;

And many women get frustrated trying to meet this expecation--knowing they are MORE than just a body--they are a whole person--just as the women in the movies and magazines are--and there is no way they can truly become one-dimentional..and no reason why they should even want to try--as it will leave them feeling empty and worhtless--

Wflower response;

Exactly. But the men that will continue to defend their "usage" of this material due to it being a selfish desire, will continue to do so and "discreetly" or "secretly". It seems like it is potentially not satisfactory or quite the opposite for the women who see the spouse has been at it again. Oggling these "strange" women. It has a feeling of cheating written all over it, doesn't it?

I still believe that it has more to do with a man's personal insecurity regarding the woman and the woman's body and their own body. It may have to do with feeling like they can take control of the woman if they look at this one dimensional view- errr rather open view, like a dissected view of all of the woman in her open appearance of what is so intriguing to the man.

Men are visual creatures. Women are visual too. But seems that the man will maybe get most out of these kinds of books due to his "needs", his primal type of needs. And is he stressed about being a man with all of the obligations of a man? Does he have insecurities about his sexuality and being as manly as he can? Does he need more reinforcement about his sexuality than a woman can give him in her perhaps, less than desirable amount (of time)than that she is giving him?

I feel that when I found the porn mag. dated when I was pregnant with and due that very month, he was suffering from needing a sexual image to work with. It hurt me desperately to see he had been oggling these creatures when I was obtunded with a beautiful baby. It makes me mad to think of this now. Why did he do this? Was he feeling that he could not be sexual with me because my body was fat with a baby/or is it just another discreet "usage" of porn.?

Many thoughts go into this. None of them too good from the womans stand points. You feel a sense of mistrust, ugliness, hurt that goes beyond language and sadness. It makes me feel so sad that we did not have together, what he got all alone with this magazine, whatever he 'got from it. And did he share any feelings about any of this. No.

So, what ever you do to understand porn usage, I do not think that you can change the fact that it will hurt and sometimes more than others if you are a feeling and real woman.

i respect and understand what everyone is saying here-

but i am a feeling and a real woman, and it does not hurt me when my husband looks at porn. and i know other real, feeling women that don't feel hurt when their husbands/ SO's look at porn.

i think that it just depends on the situation, the material and the interpretation that one places on the material.

i was pg and gave birth at apx the same time as "rachel" on friend's... now, i found that offensive! right... the average female isn't going to gain any extra wieght or have a few areas sag during pg- and then pop right back into shape after the delivery... right and be able to sleep and go out on dates (etc)... that was such askew from reality!

Have you ever read any derogatory statements made in this material. Talk and jokes about the woman's body. Vaginas that are depicted, in cartoon mind you that are wide open and sagging. And the minor yet seemingly overwhelming depiction of women being nothing more than what to look at.

To see what it is for what it is, and yes it is fantasy, totally, but what it is is totally debasing and functionally immoral and belittling of human women.

To find out why the men who are doing this, and when it is done always discreetly, unless you are looking at it as much as he does...To find out why when it is shameful to your loving and caring spouse, why do it still?

Is it like smoking, that you just can not give it up. No matter how devastating it is to your living arrangement? I am not saying that you would divorce your spouse over porn "usage", but neither would you do it over someone who smokes.

It just seems that it should not be so signifigant that it is discreet, or hidden, but more accepted or just not done at all. When we need to do things in private, it seems to strike one as being signifigantly out of place in your life? What do you say to that?