hey wflower- i'm the one that quit smoking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> like a big dummy- i started when i was 23. i don't even have the excuse of being "young"! but fortunately, i was able to quit after apx 6-7yrs!

some countries/ societies do not hide porn in any way (sweden, denmark, etc). the USA is infamous for it's views of sex. in fact, we're laughed and mocked at by some other countries- they can't understand why we would "hide" sex and our bodies yet think that it's reasonable to view people being victims of violence, bombs, murder (etc). (not implying that you make-up the violent viewer category). but it's a transparent hypocrisy on our part as a nation. really... what's more offensive?

as a side note: i find soap operas to be within the same "porn" category of romance novels- same category as playboy.

~i dont know if i want to get into the stripper subject~ but i have had friends that were strippers. the stripper population is made up of mostly single mothers and college students. there is a small population that represents the "glamorized" version of stripper- they are not the norm. yes, it might be sad that these women have chosen to expose their bodies in order to take care of their finances-

but i have known a lot of women who get married for financial security- personally, i'd rather strip than to become some man's home-made-*&^%$! IMHO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

all this taboo crap..i understand it...the forbidden fruit. the thrill to the sneeking around and MAYBE getting caught......i get all this.

but, to me thats just bull**** in a real marriage....a real relationship...and so is not seeking to understand the attraction or whatever to porn ....or anything else your spouse feels the need to hide from you.

it just shouldn't be....in a healthy, mature relationship.
these are the things that need to be discussed, as far as i am concearned.
not just manipulate the situation w/ the idea of......if it's not so taboo anymore he'll only look at it twice a month.
OR the flip side....it's evil, it's wrong. end of story.
i am trying to get down to the nitty gritty of the situation.

what i am trying to discuss is WHY do you think we are all so anti-porn.....what DOES it MAKE us feel?
and why? where did those feelings come from?

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Aeri, I never said to stop doing what you enjoy. But I think you do enjoy it, but I disagree with alot you say. I do not think that because you are holding a masters degree and strip that this is a great argument for it being a wholesome lifestyle. How would that effect marriage and children to do that for a living. Alot of vile clientele staring at your nakedness. A classic example Aeri. Thanks for the input. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

It is not apparent to me that you have proven anything positive about porn being helpful to any marriage, that is looking at sex as making love to your one and only lover in life. Your own spouse, private and trusting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by misscallaneous:
<strong>

the benefit of him looking at porn: i don't feel responsible for having to meet all of his sexual needs.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you might have stumbled onto something there miscallaneous. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You see your H as looking at porn to satisfy a sexual need that you don't want to be responsible for. You are ok with him getting that need met elsewhere beside you...right?

The women that are taking umbrage with porn being viewed by their H's, WANT to be responsible for meeting his sexual needs. They want to meet ALL his sexual needs. They do NOT want him looking elsewhere for that need to be met. While you are ok with him getting it met in another venue, they aren't.

Surely you can see the difference?

I think that the majority of people on MB will agree that SF is the one need that is supposed to be met SOLELY within the marriage. You don't look to outside areas for that one no matter how bad the marriage might be.

committed

adding: Pardon me if I make a Disrespectful judgement...
That excuse is one of the most un-marriage things I have heard. I imagine that the men on this website..who post about lack of sex in their marriages, and who DO look at porn...have wives who are saying the same thing.. "whew, thank goodness he looks at porn, that way I am NOT responsible for his sexual needs... I'm glad he's getting it somewhere..takes the heat off of me". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> . I do not think that because you are holding a masters degree and strip that this is a great argument for it being a wholesome lifestyle. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa...I didn't say it was a wholesome lifestyle--it's a lifestyle choice that this individual made and not one that I would have made.

Nelly, the taboo thing is silly but is it a real portrayal of what the men want? Or is it just part of a game to prevent "real intimacy"!

It is kind of like a game, when you don't really have to think of anything at all, just want something without strings attached. Perhaps it is something to just grow out of.

My spouse looked at porn before I knew him. I found it tucked under the mattress when I was making his bed before going to work one morning. He looked so sheepish, and I did not think one thing about it. I just laughed. He reminded me of a schoolage boy though, directly. And there was no insecure thoughts.

But, what bothers a person, spouse, is when things are not shared, but kept to onesself. And enjoyment that is secret and not shared. Then there is the rest of the ideas that weave into it.

It is not as cut and dry to me. And it just seems we could do better.

that is a good point, commited.

I have ALWAYS felt responsible for meeting my husbands SF needs. it went w/o saying to me.

he obviously did not feel this way.

i think wifes should push for this discussion and HONESTY and DISCLOSURE.
because i think, because of feelings of shame or fear.....many men will SAY they disagree with porn and think it's wrong and tell their wifes that....to keep peace......and then they SEPERATE themselves from wife even further because they never discussed it completely.

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by holdingontoit:
I'm not saying these bad things you warn Smile about are impossible, just that they aren't as certain to occur as you make them out to be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Smile seems to thinks so. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:

I believe that most men, when confronted with an uncomfortable or angry wife, will learn to hide it and lie in order to keep the peace and keep doing what they want to. To believe that just by expressing your disapproval he will suddenly stop, for most women, is fooling themselves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Holding, I understand your defensive or rather supportive position on porn. I have apparently struck a nerve. I am no more correct in assuming that these things will occur as you are in assuming that they won't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And I am sorry for your life experience with porn. I am sorry it has caused such pain for you and for one's you care about. I hope you and they find healing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as assumptions are concerned...if you're going to accuse me of making assumptions then refrain from making them yourself. Remove the rose colored glasses and get a grip...or perhaps you need to let loose of your grip for a bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Oops. I'm sorry...here's where I install the disclaimer.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, that was a cheap shot.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
ba109

an irresponsible or calous attitude toward porn (from men or women) can, and often does cause problems in a relationship.

and i am not talking about addiction here. i am talking about insensitivity and justification, among other things.

IMHO- i don't think that anyone can ever satisfy another's sexual needs (if not other needs as well) in total. i think that is an unrealistic expectation that is designed for failure. who's that perfect ? i admit- i am not.

i don't have any problems satisfying my H's SN. we don't have a problem w/ that issue. our sex life is fulfilling (when he's home <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )- just bring him home, sometime

but he does have a higher drive than i do- and it's (once again) unrealistic that i will be able to perform willingly and wantingly whenever he has the "urge". and i will not have sex just to perform my "wifely" duties- i have tried that before and find that i feel "dehumanized" and "used" in that situation, not when he's alone in the bathroom. performing my wifely duties hurts me emotionally and spiritually. so i will not do it. and my H does not ask me to do it, either.

we have mutual consensual sex that is based on desire and attraction- not on obligation.

Nelly, once again in your sweet natured way you said a huge truth. Honesty and disclosure. When it is talked about and we can really see the thing for what it truly is. Which is through discussion and expression of our true feelings,then we can get somewhere with it.

My spouse and I have watched it, all kinds. I always seemed to get some ideas out of it. And ultimately it just leers toward confusion.

But there is a huge difference when you are reading a book, like Sex Over 40, or Passionate Marriage, or reviewing a tape teaching massage. Then there are the sexual technique literature/movies. They are perhaps mood makers and educational. But the key is in taste and in that these are duly SHARED.

When we are concerned and not keeping and maintaining the callous attitudes, we are focusing on the things that help, not hurts. We need to be able to share all of the feelings that this topic can bring to your mind.

~i really don't want to get catty- 'cause i respect your opinion~ but i do not think that my response is "unmarriage"--

i think that it's "unmarriage" to place unrealistic expectations on to yourself and on to your spouse.

IMHO- marriage is a partnership where the partners work together: i respect that he has needs... and... i respect that i may not be able to satisfy those needs... so... i allow him the "room" to satisfy those needs on his own... because... i love him... and... i want him to be satisfied.

so far, it has not been a problem.

I think that we may feel as though we are smothering a loved one, when we hate this idea of the man enjoying porn alone, and getting aroused by it. And he feels perhaps left out too if the woman did it in the marriage.

It seems that it requires talk. It requires sharing. We need to trust each other, but not smother each other. True.

But I believe there are better ways.

Mis........i understand what you are saying.

but, i FELT it was a given back when i got married at 21.
i loved him...i felt it was my job to please him.....and i even liked sex, so that part should have been easy for me.
but, i didn't even know what his SF needs were entirely. it was never disclosed. if we had talked about it.....and he had said, i like to have orgasms 3 a day...and...blah, blah, blah....i like to look at playboy magazine, i like to imagine doing it w/ cheerleaders....none of this has anything to do w/ the way i feel about YOU.......we could have discussed and figured out how we should deal w/ that.....

and many husbands think it was a given that a wife would suddenly react like a porn star and perform circus tricks once they are married.

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

you see... that's the problem... i can't do cart-wheels <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> so cheerleading and the circus are both ~ out of the question ~ but i do attempt to juggle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

but......i CAN do cartwheels and splits and a few other circus tricks!
(or atleast i used to be able to)

and i love to dress up.

he just never asked me to..or explained why he would like that.
and that's what i needed.

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Circumstancewill vary but the basic moral issues are standard. Do you feel happy and comfortable with your situation? If yes, then great. But if not, it needs to be opened up and talked on.

Personally, I think that for longevity and a loving prosperous marriage, pornography ought to be put in the garbage. I can say that once in while viewing as a couple may not hurt, perhaps, but preferably it is better without that stuff.

And if you need some inspiration. Get it in the tasteful section of the bookstore. It is enlightening. Not seedy.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by holdingontoit:
I'm not saying these bad things you warn Smile about are impossible, just that they aren't as certain to occur as you make them out to be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, Smile seems to thinks so.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ba, just because I'm not posting doesn't mean I want you to start assuming what I think about my man. I wanted to stay out of this thread because I don't feel like subjecting myself to further abuse by certain posters. I also don't feel the need to be judged by you or other posters.

I have explicitly said over and over that 5X and I have discussed the porn topic. We were both open and honest about our feelings and needs and we maturely came to a solution.

To say that I am saying the things I'm saying to MBers and my man just to get a ring on my finger is a serious DJ. I am 27yo. I have been with 5X for almost five years. We have taken this relationship slowly and carefully. Our communication has improved every year we've been together. We hold an amazing amount of respect for each other. We work well together. We make decisions well together. When I first started asking porn-related questions here it was because I was trying to determine if he had an addiction, not because I had personal issues with porn. Neither of us thinks he has an addiction after giving the subject serious research and consideration. Porn doesn't make me feel any more insecure than the gorgeous California girls walking around me every day.

I would appreciate it if people would stop assuming that I have these deep-rooted problems that I keep pushing down so that I can get married. The whole point of coming to MB for me is to uproot EVERYTHING and work with it NOW...before marriage. That is why I am here. I think there are a lot of people who do mask their problems prior to marriage (and during), but I am not one of them. There have been statements that you can quote me on that have been misinterpreted. There have been statements that are hypothetical. There have been statements that I feel the need to retract because I wrote them without thinking through them enough. I am telling you NOW, that you are wrong about me pretending that porn isn't an issue. Just like Aeri, I enjoy it. I also don't find it repulsive or evil. I'm so sorry you cannot accept the fact that I'm different from you and/or capable of having porn in my marriage.

I have no intentions of turning around after marriage and telling 5x what he can and cannot do with pornography. IF porn ever becomes a problem (and based on the past 5 years--and esp. the past 2-3months--I do not anticipate a problem), I have left this topic open to further discussion with him. The issue won't be whether he needs to stop or not, but rather finding ways to make me feel more comfortable with it. Or if the issue is how to parent, then that is what we'll discuss. It's not as black and white for me as some people see it. It's open for discussion.

I am not upset with him, disappointed with him, or hurt by him looking at porn. If he was spending lots of money on it, I'd question the economics of the habit, but he spends $0 on porn. He only looks at free stuff online. He doesn't own a single video or magazine. If he suddenly started spending money on porn, we'd need to POJA that specific aspect of it.

Sorry to disappoint you folks. I am a reasonable, smart, logical, feeling, caring woman. And on top of all of that, I don't have these tormenting insecurities when it comes to porn. Pretty cool, huh?

Smile

I am very lucky that this is not an issue in my marriage. Part of me DOES feel that it objectifies both genders and makes sex seem rather an impersonal act, but because it has never been a big issue, I have a pretty liberal attitude towards a little casual use, on either spouse's part.

OTOH, a few years ago I read some interesting research on the effect of porn on men's ratings of their SO. As I recall, the experiment was an attempt to tease out whether the higher D rate among "habitual" users was related to porn use, or if porn use was more a function of the unhappy R, which seems quite possible. So they took men and had them rate their relationships and their spouses. They pulled two matched groups and exposed one to porn for an extended period, the other to non-pornographic materials. At the end of the experimental period, the group exposed to porn showed a signifiant decline in both ratings of their SO and their R; the other group showed no significant change. I've no idea if the study was ever replicated or validated, but I am glad my DH hasn't much interest in viewing porn.

Kathi

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Smile it is truly good to be able to talk about all of your feelings with your boyfriend. Hopefully after you are married, you will find that the things don't turn if you are finding any change of heart. I particularly am thinking of how it changes with children added into the very comfortable equation.

It does change and there really are moral obligations that go with the package. I know we can feel quite sure about some things and learn something different later.

As long as you both are giving and trusting in your actions and your communication, you will do ok. Sounds like you have dated and know him very well by now.

But remember, not everyone is talking about insecurity here. If you like porn you like it. If you don't it is because you don't like it, period. Why do we need to be insecure to hate something? It just is part of your upbringing or your development of values.

We learn as we live, most of the time.