</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ba109:
<strong>I am no more correct in assuming that these things will occur as you are in assuming that they won't.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, I am NOT assuming they won't. I am assuming they MIGHT. Or they might NOT. I am not sure they won't. I am sure they will sometimes. I am also sure they will not occur every time.

By "occur", I mean that porn will eventually make the wife resentful.

Remember, we are starting off in a situation where Smile says the porn does not bother her today. I hear your posts to sy that porn WILL (for sure) bother her someday. And all I am saying is, it might not. It might bother her someday. But it might never bother her.

You are saying she has to clear this up and demand her boyfriend give up all porn today because she WILL resent it someday and then he won't give it up. I hear Smile to say "I don't want to ask for that because I don't think it will ever bother me." I hear you to say "wake up girl, it WILL bother you someday, and it will be incredibly painful, and by then it will be too late to fix it."

I am saying "thank you for pointing out the risk and the magnitude of the hurt if it occurs. That is helpful information in case she was not aware that her feelings might change over time. But once she is aware of the probability and magnitude of the risk, leave her alone to make up her own mind about whether this is a battle she chooses to fight."

Because we ALL have to pick our battles. There are infinitely many things that bother us about our spouses. And infinitely many risks that MIGHT rise up to bite us in the future. If you base your relationship on constantly fighting to prevent ANY of them from happening, then you won't have much time less to enjoy each other. Smile is a big girl. And it is her life. She gets to pick which battles she wishes to fight. And which risks SHE is willing to take.

The universe of men includes many who have imbibed alcohol and not become alcoholics. Men who have participated in the NCAA basketball tournament office pool without becoming addicted to gambling. Men who have engaged in premarital sex without becoming sexaholics.

Which is not to say that there aren't enough sex fiend alcoholic gamblers to drive a woman nut trying to find a "normal" guy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just saying that limiting oneself to virginal teetotaling risk averse gentlemen makes finding a personality match even harder. And a woman could rationally decide that marrying a sexually experienced (but disease free) man who drinks responsibly (but doesn't drive drunk) and occassionally bets on the Super Bowl is an acceptable level of risk for HER to take.

I think you are right that this issue may resurface when our kids are old enough to be affected. I don't foresee his use being a factor because he keeps that very private.
Things I think we may need to be aware of is locking/hiding his computer files. I know he won't have a problem with that. There is nothing else to physically hide at this point.

The next issue I see is when the kids are old enough to perceive our values. How do we want them to perceive porn and what lessons do we want them learning from our views, practices, etc.? We will need to work together to agree on the best way to handle that.

What else do you parents find to be problematic once kids arrive? What do they pick up on and generally how early is it a potential problem?
Honest questions...no sarcasm. I have posed questions to him about children and his porn use. I've gotten him to really think about them when I ask him questions about influencing a young daughter. He's changed his views in some areas, and I've changed my views in others.

Any feedback on how things might need to change once kids are on the scene?

Thanks,
Smile

I just thought of something else. You know you can prepare for a lot in life, but when you get to that point in time when you have to deal with it, you may not respond in the way that you yourself anticipated years ago.

That is what I think a lot about being young and reading here and in books to prepare for a marriage. Think about preparing/reading about birthing, it is so phenomenal. Reading and talking is always good. And to be able to take this issue and talk to all kinds of people about their point of view, gives you more agility.

The ideas here can not hurt you. The ideas can only give you some more to ponder.

To be able to grasp this issue and feel comfortable is the best anyone can hope for. And if there is a problem you can recognize it for what it is and then deal with it.

Values are important. I make no mistake about it. Sometimes you will become more aware of a certain value you place on an issue at times when you need to. It has to do with growing and learning.

And we should be free to discern and to make marriage the best place to have sanctity in the arms of your spouse, and may it be always better than the book!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Kathi,
the results from the experiment you mentioned validates my greatest fear when it comes to men and porn use.

this happened in my marriage,i am sure. i am sure there were numerous times thruout our marriage that my husband turned towards porn and away from me.
he was sneeking and hiding it and felt the NEED to do that......because i unknowingly, did not make it a safe environment for us him to discuss why he was drawn to it and what he liked about it.
i tend to believe those results.....although, i don't believe the porn itself is the main issue.

Nelly, what do you contend the main issue is?

i think for most people....the main issue is acceptance.
atleast that is the only word i can come up with right now.

i think most of us get so many mixed signals about sex when we are young and trying to figure out where all these feelings are coming from.
and we NEVER talk to anybody about them.

i think most of us want to know that we are normal and not nasty or perverted just because something sparks a sexual interest....and they want thier spouse to accept that in them. understand it.....accept it and enjoy it w/ them.
or...if it's an aversion....help them work thru it and understand it......accept it....and not bother them about it.
that's why i say acceptance.
an acceptance of that need.

hi smile,
i am glad you showed up.
did you had a nice week-end?

So, it is more like a self-acceptance of the need to see the porn. It is in viewing it that there is some kind of reinforcement of the sexuality and activity about it? Interesting!

But it hurts when they go through this without including the spouse.

It is in great part due to our initial ability to talk with the men regarding their needs perhaps? What do you think?

Hi Nelly...thanks for asking. I had a wonderful time, although I could have done without the Arizona heat. Ugh...it was so hot. I live in such a paradise and to go play a tournament in Tempe was just miserable. I was with a great group of people, though and we all had a great time.
I could definitely do without this sunburn, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Smile

Hi all - completely new to this board and please excuse me if I should post this reply somewhere else, yet the topic is quite fitting - and I really need some help. I'll try to make this short...
I'm 31, H is 40, and we've been married just over one year. Our sex life has been deteriorating since shortly after the wedding - H just says it's his age and simply isn't as intereseted as he used to be. However I just stumbled across his "interest" in porn via our recent cable bills...and certainly not expected from a man who states he is not interested in sex. He's also lied to me about it and felt the need to sneak around as well. I feel so betrayed and heartbroken. Our relationship is wonderful in other aspects and I had to try real hard and sacrificed my needs over the past year to conform to the once-or-twice-a-month lovemaking sessions he has the interest for. Now I know that it's not his age and that was just an excuse...I'm trying real hard not to take this personal, but am afraid it has been a real hard blow to my self worth, body image, and self esteem. What do I do now? How do I deal with this, something so unexpected? How do I forgive the lies and move on?

Hi Rink. Sounds like he has an intimacy problem maybe? You are now married and he doesn't want to have sex so much. He is 40? And how long was he single for, married prior to this marriage with you?

I see where if you aren't getting any and he's looking at porn where you might be a little miffed. Sex was happy before the marriage?

What do you think is going on with this husband of yours.

Hubby was never married before yet had a few long term relationships. The sex was fine before our marriage; every now and then I noticed an "ebb" in the frequency, yet is always seemed to self-correct itself as I'm sure is normal in most relationships.

I don't know if he has some sort of intimacy problem...in our relationship outside of the bedroom he is great - physical intimacy with lots of hugs and touching, and we have a close relationship. I can say that he is not very affectionate or tender often in the bedroom; he rather prefers it down and dirty. Whatever, I'm up for anything to please him. I just don't understand why now he has no sexual interest in me and would rather watch 18 year old girls when he can have the real thing anytime.

holding,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are saying she has to clear this up and demand her boyfriend give up all porn... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If this is what you "hear me saying" then you are grossly misinterpreting my posts. There are of course other options.

Again, I understand your passionate need to defend the use of porn. Perhaps you could start a thread expressing that passion. It would permit you to thoroughly express your ideas and views on porn and it's benefits to M. I'm sure you have some very thought provoking POV's.

Smile, you seem to be well aware of any and all potential concerns that "may" arise in the future. I wish you smooth sailing.

Originally posted by WFlower: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know you can prepare for a lot in life, but when you get to that point in time when you have to deal with it, you may not respond in the way that you yourself anticipated years ago.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well put. Especially if "years ago" we chose to wear blinders.

ba109

If you did not have problems prior to marriage and you are doing well other than the sex lately, think about how different it is to live independantly til you are 40 years old. Then you have to share everything with this spouse. Maybe he is having an "adjustment" period. And was dirty sex his preferance before this new trend in decreased sex periods/porn sneaking?

I guess you need to learn to use some of the concepts, read the concepts and ask more questions.

If everything else is good. I think it could be his way of adjusting to the marriage status. But it is not good to let this go. It is something you need to have easy out in the open conversation about his/your feelings and gently teasing out what he is going through.

He has always liked it dirty.

I guess I have a hard time associating a normal adjustment period for marriage with pornography...I just don't see the connection. I've asked him why the sudden interest in porn and he says he simply doesn't know. Obviously we now have some unanticipated problems to work on, so disenheartening since everything seemed to be so smooth between us, yet I just don't know what the first step I have to make in order to feel good about myself again and forgive the lying.

Well, I don't like to use the word normal. It doesn't feel normal does it? But the fact is he is looking at it and was hiding it, so you still have lots to learn about each other, correct?

Read the other side of this site. Harley's writing is clear and to the point on how to communicate, and work many seemingly impossible issues out. Then there are the questionnaires to do with each other. Emotional needs, History questionnaire. Lots of room for discussion, even after you've been married umpteen years!

Don't be down hearted. There will be time to work it out. If other things are going well, it is not as bad as some folks have. And there is always solutions. Have faith and work at this with him.

There is another feeling that is perhaps seemingly selfish of a woman. And that is when you are pregnant there is much going on to prepare for this baby. You can not begin to realize til you are there. But what is consciously accepted may be subconsciously rejected and more.

You have to be able to talk and release your feelings together. And in fact it is NO Sin to feel the need to get and be secure together in your feelings and ideas, fantasy and projections of today and tomorrow. And talk about his worries, your worries. Let it out. Usually that which we fear and hold in, is the poison that will not go away til you deal it out and get it aired out.

Many problems we face today could have been prevented had we done that. So, take heed and be open and honest. Share all of it. And don't label it insecure, and put any finality on anything because, feelings change. Behaviors are not always the best.

And what Nelly said about "acceptance" rings true. It is that old blessed assurance(!) that we all truly do need.

And when we are loving and loved then we know it. Talk about it and we will prove it over and over.

Smile..you made an interesting point back there that i missed.
you said that porn doesn't make you feel anymore insecure than the georgeous californa girls you see every day.
i know that feeling.....i came to that realization awhile back and thought...i really do need to think about this. deal w/ it...because it is not good for me.

to me, it's another one of those areas that make the whole porn issue so complex.
and to me, it really is complex. i love the way this thread has taken off today.

what tournaments do you play?
tennis?
i must have missed that.

but, i do get this scary feeling when i read posts like rink's. how would that situation make you feel?

just a few more scenarios to ponder....
wflower....
you mentioned feelings of neglect....it was also brought up on another thread today........no spouse wants to feel that way.

wouldn't it be nice if when we started to get those feelings for whatever reason we could go to our spose and mention it and feel confident that they will say something like, "well, that's the last thing i want YOU to feel..let's talk about why you are feeling like that and work on it."

many men run to porn when they are feeling neglect in the SF dept. because they are embarrassed to explain a need or feel it will get shutdown anyway....and then i believe that study that kathi mentioned comes into play and things can get worse.

but what about porn as a habit?
a guy who indulged in porn while single....for various reasons......may find it very hard to give up. because it is filling a slightly different need then SF w/ wife.
that is what i believe is happening to rink.
and now there are hurt feelings and deceit involved and how does one attack an issue like that?
he is most likely afraid to be honest w/ her about his reasons......and she is left feeling self-doubt and confusion.
why would a husband want his wife to feel that?

because he does not understand it, i guess.

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Nelly,
I play Ultimate Frisbee. It's kind of a cross between soccer and basketball played with a frisbee. LOTS of running.

Is Rink's situation all that different from other's we've heard here? I've said many times that one of the major reasons I don't have a problem with my BF's porn use is because it doesn't interfere with our sex life. And that is a boundary that he fully understands.
He claims that his porn use has nothing to do with the overall frequency or quality of our sex life (I say overall because if we are apart for an extended period of time, the porn use will most definitely go up). If that is the true case, then his porn use should never interfere with our sex life. If at some point it does, then we'll need to discuss it, again.
If somewhere down the road sex detiorated in our relationship as it has done in Rink's, and I found out that my H was getting his fix via porn instead of me, then I'd feel the same pain and disappointment that she's described. Not just the rejection, but the pain from the dishonesty...moreso from the dishonesty.

Like you, Nelly, I care much more about the honesty than the porn. But, unlike you, I don't have big issues with porn use. I agree with pretty much everything Aeri said about it. So far, more good than bad has come to me and this relationship. It has helped us discuss sex. It has helped us (mostly me) get in the mood. It has given us fun ideas. It has kept him satisfied when I am unavailable. I cannot name anything bad that has happened to me or him that I can directly attribute to pornography. Unfortunately, people like Rink and MG cannot say the same thing. Our situations are very different.

Smile