You did fine. It is very important to tell kids the truth and model honorable behavior. You want your kids to know that people aren't replaceable, and you don't just move on to another partner.

I made lots of mistakes, but I DID stand for the marriage. A lot of times I felt like a fool, but all my kids and his kids were watching. And even now, they come to ME with their problems, seek my input and respect me. Same with all of our friends.

It isn't easy, but no matter how this comes out, you will be relieved that you did the right thing. And your children will learn lifetime lessons from your moral behavior.

Hello BF, I think you are doing fine with the chidren. What I try to do is be open with them and show them that I am happy to answer truthfully any question they want to ask with factual information but I try not to give them any more information than they ask for, just in case it might be too much for them. It's not always easy to get the balance right as they are very sensitive to any form of criticism of WH or any idea that they have to align themselves with one against the other.

I hope you all have a great Christmas and that your WH realises what he is missing.

Hugs and best seasonal wishes,

Tully xx

bf,

How hard for you to have to explain all this stuff to a 4-year-old! I think you did it admirably, despite the foggy-feel-good spin your WH is putting on it. A child can see what a wayward cannot. Isn't that pathetic?

Christmas has to be the worst time for dealing with the "living dead." Wondering if, and when, they will "come back to life." Try to do something extra nice for yourself this week. Is your family still visiting? Hope you've basked in their love and support.

Hugs to you, bf.

Right Here Waiting

Thanks, RHW and tully! It has been hard, but today was a positive day as I took the kids to do their shopping for each other. We all had a blast!
We still have cookies to make and a little more decorating to do and then we can just relax, eat and enjoy each other!
The older kids and I talked more about what is going on and DS11 talked about how he feels, but that he hasn't shared much of that with his dad.
We also talked about a Christmas gift for him. They said they only wanted to get him a gift card. Per DS11, "that's all he deserves."
As hurt as I am, there is a part of me that is so sad that this is how my kids feel about a man whom I thought was the best dad, best husband and is now a source of so much pain.
I don't fear using OW's name either. It takes away some of that anxiety just to reference her in conversations with the kids.
We'll I've got some pasta to finish! I'll check in later!
BF439

P.S. I am signed up for a massage tomorrow and a facial Saturday! I am looking forward to a little indulgence!

bf, you are absolutely doing the right thing by talking to them honestly about it. They need to be able to recognize affairs in the making, so they won't make the same mistakes. And they need to know they can come to you for truth and help. Merry Christmas!

Thanks, catperson. They seemed almost relieved to talk and I think it was helpful that we all talked together and they got to hear what each other is thinking, rather in two separate conversations.

Going for a massage will check back when I'm all relaxed!!
BF439

Glad you're getting that massage after you finished your Christmas preparations! Hope it leaves you relaxed and refreshed.

And a peaceful Merry Christmas to you and your kids!

:MerryChristmas:

The massage was wonderful and I signed up for it for the year -- 1-2 massages every month for this BS!!!

Took the kids to church last night and came home and finished cookies. Everyone got to bed nice and early and the kiddos did not wake me up too early.

The phone ringer was off, so I did not get any calls from family this morning, including WH or MIL and that was really of peaceful.

I talked with MIL later and had to call back because I always get this feeling that on the one hand she supports me, but on the other hand she wants me to do something different. She said she understands how NC helps me, but she's afraid that its causing me and WH to grow further apart. I'm not sure how much further apart you can be than separated and WH sleeping with someone else!! I also reinfoced to her that all I have asked is that he cut contact with OW -- I can talk with him and work on what has happened as long as she is no longer in the picture. That is up to him.
I just hate that feeling that I am causing this, or hurting the kids because I don't want to be his buddy -- for the kids. Trust me, the kids are perfectly happy with me keeping him at a distance because they understand (a little) how much he has hurt me. They respect me sticking up for myself.

I know I'm doing better because I have been cooking a lot! Today's menu:
Standing rib roast
Colcannon
gingered carrots
stuffing
brussel sprouts with bacon, pine nuts and golden raisins
rolls
pumpkin pie

Yum, Yum!!!
:MerryChristmas:
Merry Christmas everyone!!!!!! Feeling much better than I thought possible and primarily due to all your support!

BF439

Hi BF, I know exactly how you feel here. In this 21st century, it is a deeply ingrained part of our culture that we need to talk in order to sort out problems. I believed that too for a long time before being in Plan B. But then I realised that talking to my WH was not having any impact and that another tactic was necessary. The problem is that everyone else in our lives hasn't been through that process and so it's counter-intuitive to them that we could be trying to save our marriages by cutting all contact.

Also, even though I am sure that what I doing is the right thing, there are times when I question myself if I am being too rigid or closed-minded. But sometimes it's essential to draw a line and make it clear where our limits are. People may object and push us to 'sort things out' but deep down I think they respect us for standing up for ourselves and saying 'no further'. I'm starting to see that people around me admire that I can be tolerant and prepared to forgive but not at any price. They can see that I have my values and self-respect and will not lower them but if he comes across to my side then I will do my best to forgive and heal. I am sure that your MIL is full of respect for you but she also knows your WH would be lucky to have you so, for her son's sake, she wants this impasse to be broken somehow. I bet she is putting lots of pressure on him though.

Hey, tully, thanks for posting. I'm not sure if MIL is pressuring him one way or the other, I really think she is pushing him more than anything to be the "good dad" and I think in his family that means taking care of us financially and visiting with the kids. Not necessarily staying in a marriage.

Anyway, the kids came home from their visit with him and had their gifts that he got them. I got to say it was hard not to imagine that not only did (young, hip 30 year-old) OW help him pick them out, but that he must be spending a lot of time with her as he hasn't had that much time with the kids.

I'm really tired of worrying and wondering what he's doing. I'm probably feeling more and more like tully - how can I respect a man who would do this to his family and would I ever want him back in my life? That, at least, is a much better place to be than where I have been!

Well, I have the kids tonight and we are having a "slumber party" and watching movies, so no matter who he's with or what he's doing, I know I have the better end of the bargain!! Other men are easy to find, my children are irreplacible so I'm glad I'm with them!!

Geez, I have come so far from the days I would just sit and cry!!

BF439

Dead right! Not only do you have the kids but you also have a clean conscience! No matter what way this goes you can hold your head high, you are doing your best to keep your family intact while at the same time remaining true to yourself!

I know that I have my moments when I think that life might be better without him but I'm trying to do a good Plan B on myself by putting decisions like that to one side. I don't know if we can win this game, but until he throws a six he can't even get on the board!

bf and tully,

You two women are amazing. I admire your sense of self, and your courage. And SO glad you've both managed to pull a good Christmas out of a tough situation, for yourselves and your kids.

You're right that you have the better end of the deal. The bond you have with your kids is precious and strong. I only hope your WH's pull their heads out in time to salvage the best thing that ever happened to them.

Still pulling for you.

Right Here Waiting

Ok, so not the best night. I'll summerize:
DD12 asked WH if he were still seeing OW or [u][/u]anyone and he got mad on the phone. She hung up and he kept calling back, so of course I talked to him. Mistake number 1. So heres a brief summary of the rest of the terrible, non-plan b night:
1. I talked with WH and of course got very upset.
2. I talked with FIL and cried even more as he tried to get me to see how I need to help the kids by not using an IM.
3. I talked with a good friend who reminded me that in-laws are not looking out for me at this point.
4. OK here was my big mistake-- I talked with WH-- for like an hour. Lots of crying, rehashing and him reinforcing that he is not with OW, still in occaisional contact. Just about everyhing I said he countered, although I think he heard some of what I was trying to say. All very emotional and unproductive, but an emotional release for me.

I don't know guys, but he swears that he doesn't love me as a wife, he should have told me sooner and that he is not with affair partner (except for the contact he has with her like he would any friend).

Any ideas? Should I just cut mynlosss here and accept the end of my marriage and move on? Il don't know what to do--,I feel like every one is telling me something different!
Help.......

Your sig. says your in plan B?

bestfriend-

Sorry you are having such a tough time right now. Please realize that although your friends don't want to see you in pain so they may be giving you "different" advice, they haven't been in these shoes (the awful BS shoes). Take the advice you are getting here at MB to heart, because it comes from those who have been down this road.

Your WH is very foggy.

If he really felt this way, how is it that it never came up until this "friend" came into his life? It's amazing how most of us BS's got the ILYBINILWY speech once there was an interloper in our M, yet the WS insists EVERY TIME that it has NOTHING to do with the OP. :RollieEyes:


Really? Like any other friend? C'mon...would he leave his family over a friendship with one of his guy friends?

I think it's best if you get back to Plan B, a really dark Plan B-so you can protect what ever love you have for him and protect yourself from his fogginess and entitlement.

Your kids have every right to ask him questions and have every right to hang up on him and then ignore his attempts to spew fog on them too. You just have to resist the "mom" urge to step in and try to make it better. Let him have the consequences of his choices. That might mean his kids lose respect for him and want nothing to do with him. Or, they see through his b*() and don't want to put up with it.

Next time-turn off the phone, have it go straight to messages, or disconnect it for a while. Then, watch stupid movies or play a game with your kids.

I hope this helps.

((bf439))

yep, plan B I am -- but not too well tonight! That's where I get confused -- it seems like MB stuff only works with other MB folks or eople already versed in the Bible.
Any other suggestions?

I'm a big fan of turning off the phone. There's no emergency the police can't get hold of you for.

Back on Plan B. Think of it like a diet. So you splurge once in a while; just back on the wagon and keep moving forward.

As for the advice, remember that this plan was made by a person who has counseled thousands of couples, and had the wits to recognize the patterns and develop a system that fights against the specific problems of affairs. Trust it. It's based on human nature, and you simply can't fight human nature. If others don't understand it, send them copies of the books.

Hello BF, I'm so sorry that you had a bad night. It might seem as though the MB stuff works better for others but that's only because it's so much easier to stand back from other people's situations and see the big pattern than it is in our own. Don't worry all of us have the same difficulty in applying the MB principles but you need to trust your instincts and the people here who can see things from a position of experience and generosity.

You ARE doing the right thing with Plan B and you need to be sure of that in your own heart so that others will not waver either. You need to be able to say firmly but calmly to your PIL (and anyone else questioning your choice) that:
1. what is most upsetting for your children is the destruction of their family unit not the existence of an IM
2. you don't believe your husband when he says that he never loved you and that he is saying this only to justify his A
3. the day will come when you will discuss matters with your husband either to reconstruct your M or to make arrangements for a D but you are still hoping that it will be the former rather than the latter. That day will come but it's not here yet.
Then you need to avoid discussing these things with these people because, well-intentioned as they may be, they will shake your resolve and cause you to give up.

Yes, it is much easier at times to give up and say 'fine, let's have a D so that we can all move on' but you have chosen not to take the easy route and you are right. Even if it fails you will always know that you did your best.

But all that said, I don't believe what your WH is saying. Mine is saying much the same kind of things and he is very convincing because he himself believes his lies. Your husband loved you because you had a good M together for most of that time and you made a decision to have 3 children together. He would not have done that if he didn't love you. He has just placed the 'infidelity filter' over his vision which distorts the past as well as present actions and words so that it fits with his requirement to see himself as a decent man who was just trying to extricate himself from a bad M. This kind of distortion is so destructive to our LB (IMO it's even more destructive that the A itself) that you must protect yourself from it by being in Plan B. Please believe in yourself and don't allow people to destabilise you. Surround yourself with people who are backing you 100%, like all of us here on MB.

You are a great mother and your children know it and they are the ones who count!

OK, bf, maybe not the good Christmas I thought you were having...I'm sorry.

Your WH does sound very foggy, but here's a little insight about the "I don't love you as a wife" thing. They ALL do some variation on that, and I think I finally realize why. Follow me here.

It's NOT b/c of the OW, although they DO use the romantic "high" as "proof" that what they have with her is not what they have with you. Enough to make them forget they ever had it, in fact.

BUT

The "romantic love" between you was already spoiled BEFORE the affair. That's what made the wayward vulnerable in the first place. YOU weren't exactly feeling romantic love toward him in the months leading up to the A, were you? On both sides, it was because your lives included love busters that drained BOTH your love banks, and neither of you were even clear on what each other's emotional needs were, much less in the habit of meeting them. The wayward simply finds "self medication" as a "solution."

He ISN'T in a state of romantic love love with you right now--Plan A is supposed to show him that it CAN be like that again. But waywards usually aren't in a place where they can accept that, because they are in what Dr. Harley calls the stage of withdrawal. Nothing gets in or out while the affair is active. And often this is the case BEFORE they find the affair partner. When they build a romantic connection with them, they conclude they couldn't do it with us again. WE know that if the BS can amend their approach to be more conducive to building a romance-based, caring marriage, it can happen, but THEY don't know it. Yet.

That's why NC is so critical. As long as the wayward is still feeding his fantasy with contact, he cannot fall in love with you again. He's in withdrawal from you. That's what Plan B is for--to protect YOU from his thoughtlessness of course, but also to give him a full dose of OW, and ZERO of you. SHE doesn't know how to meet all of his ENs and doesn't have the advantage of learning about them like we BSs who are learning the MB process.

The A will eventually fizzle and he will feel lost, and very, very foolish. That's when the opportunity arises to move from withdrawal back into connection with you. Bad news is that you have to go through the stage of conflict before that can happen. But he's got to get beyond withdrawal to have a hope of conflict, which is actually much better than withdrawal. It's at least engagement. He is NOT engaged right now, and therefore, not "in love."

Once contact is broken, the OW is no longer viewed as their one-and-only soul mate (some OW were never perceived that way) and he will be able to really SEE you again.

At least, that's the way it often works when the BS follows the MB program. No guarantees, but I can say it worked for me and my FWH, and HE was a master of withdrawal.

This is a long way of telling you not to fret because he's telling you he doesn't "love you like a wife." It doesn't mean he never will.

Right Here Waiting

My ex "wasn't having an affair" even though they were living together. He didn't admit it until 2 years later I caught them in bed together. They all lie.

Dust yourself off and get back on the Plan B wagon.