<BR>Hi All, <P>In a couple of the books I am reading, the three C's are discussed...Character, Courage and Conscience.<P>Very basically, the books say that when someone does something wrong....they "turn off" the three C's.....Which are, what we as "human beings" can perfect (or not) by choice. That is because what makes us human is free will with morality.<P>The concept that humans are instinctive animals is not true.<P>We (humans) wish to be loved and embraced for our Character, respected and relied on for our Courage and trusted for our Conscience.<P>The books go on to explain that using "you're only human" or "humans make mistakes" and "nobody's perfect" are really openings for excuses and should never be uttered......<P>It is validating a wrong and should be handled differently.<P>I am in big trouble with this then....since throughout my nightmare, I have been using those phrases with regards to my husband...whether it's to him directly or about him to others and myself......<P>When we use the above mentioned phrases we are incorrect in our assessment as well as doing a terrible injustice.....both to the "wrong" itself and the "victim" as well as not at all helping the "wrongdoer" with seeing, analyzing and reactivating their three "C's"!!<BR>Otherwise they could be stuck in a pattern of not living with their "C's" and descend so far into validation that they no longer keep their "human" morality....<P>I don't want to do that.....I just want him to know that he did something that is forgivable and does not have to keep his mind in a place of guilt and/or shame!!!!<P>The best way to put it - from what I can surmise - is to say "wrong" or "bad choices"<P>The books say that, especially now, with the social tendencies being lack of time and consideration for others, self-gratification at it's peak, the "everyone does it" attitudes and no strong family unity being cultivated - one should reinforce the three "C's" whenever possible, because it is not in the mainstream of an average day.<P>UGH!!!!!<P>My problems now is what have I done......have I hurt his being even more by these words?<P>Have I reinforced his bad behavior and caused the behaviors of his parents to reclaim him by inadvertently holding back his reactivating his Character, Courage and Conscience?<P>Would using other phrasing now be some form of confusion or lovebuster? <P>JJEEEEZZZ!!!!! <P>What do you all think about this?<P>For all the people that I have used these phrases to....change it to bad choices and please don't keep your three C button in the off position.....<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Sheba -- I don't think you've been wrong in saying what you have. IF we all spoke completely correct English, and IF we all were 100% aware of what we were saying 100% of the time, then I might agree with what you've read. I for one am not the literate.<P>I believe that literally anything we say can be twisted around and used to the advangtage of someone else if that is the intention in the first place.<P>I think you're doing very well. Keep it up.<P>God Bless

Thanks ES -<P>I just was struck by the common sense of it though.......WHY the heck didn't I realize the potential of dismissing the seriousness of his behaviors...<P>I could just kick myself!!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

You sound very sincere in your efforts and so i say if you think you've found a better way - start using it now. We can't change moments past, but we can start fresh in every new moment. I always think of that when I start to beat myself up over something I've said or done. Hope it helps!

Hi, Sheba! You're thinking so much lately it's making my head hurt!! I need to be able to think like that!<P>I sort of agree with the concept. These three things are a choice and they do make us different from the other species on this earth.<P>However, we are human. And I really think that by saying "You're only human and everyone makes mistakes" you're only acknowledging that, though we all try to do our best we are not perfect and we do make bad choices from time to time.<P>In other words, I don't think you've been messing up in the terminology you use. I think it's fine and a nice way to show someone you love that their mistakes or bad choices are forgiveable.<P>In other words, keep on doing what you're doing!!!! I think you're great!<P>Lori

Sheba,<P>Did you start a subscription to the philosophical book of the month club? Boy, these latest posts of yours are making everyone think. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have I reinforced his bad behavior and caused the behaviors of his parents to reclaim him by inadvertently holding back <BR>his reactivating his Character, Courage and Conscience?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure I even understand this question and I've read it umpteen times. I think NO you did not reinforce his bad behaviors.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Would using other phrasing now be some form of confusion or lovebuster?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes. This is deep stuff you are dealing with here and it should not be used on someone who is running with scissors. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What do you all think about this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you should go rent a Jim Carry movie.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For all the people that I have used these phrases to....change it to bad choices and please don't keep your three C button in the off position.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Where is that darn three C's button located anyway? I can't find mine.<P>Sheba, I think you are perfect the way you are. Don't try to change who you are because we will miss that.<BR> <BR>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited October 18, 1999).]

SHA -<P>STOP IT......You're killing me!!!<P>I'm laughing so hard.....I've got bronchitis and I'm sorta laugh-hacking!!! LOL!!!<P>AH, just have another cigarette, Sheba!!<P>(Ahem!!) Seriously!!!!<P>Thanks Tam....I'll just have to change my phrasing from now on. I am not going to beat myself up - I didn't realize what the potential could be and now I do. Start from there.<P>Hi Lostva - Thanks for the kind words.<BR>You think just fine.....please don't follow my example cuz you still have some hope of sanity!!! LOL!!<P>I think that this is important - this looking at how we phrase things.<P>It's all a part of communication, which is something that I know I need to improve upon and this is a good example.<P>Sometimes the things we say could be taken diffently than what we meant originally....this analyzing that I am doing is, I suppose, a good sign that I am becoming more aware of the words I choose....<P>See - I can learn!!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Sheba - It's OKAY!!<BR>The phrases you regret using: "he/she is only human"...."no one is perfect" etc are the ones my husband learned from his therapist whom he pays $140/hour - the experts do use those phrases when helping betrayers deal with their guilt. (kind of ignores any element of free will and choice)<P>I like very much the concept of character, courage and conscience. However, my husband's therapist also convinced him that having an affair and deciding to leave his family was "the most courageous thing he's ever done" - go figure...<BR>I think I'll save your post to show H someday when we are able to discuss his affair and our healing journey a bit more philosophically. Thanks.<BR> Simone<BR>

Hi Sheba,<P>Boy oh boy... then we both got problems, don't we??? LOL <P>Hey, thing is: we do our best to give the most honest advice and ask thoughtful questions... what could possibly be wrong with that??<P>You're a good girl <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Sheba,<BR>I don't think you've reinforced his bad behavior unless you told him that it was okay to keep doing what he was doing and not showing him the hurt he is causing. And I'm sure nothing you've said could cause his parents to act anyway different, after all they are HIS parents and they have been around him longer than you have.<P>As for saying he is only human, thats a cop out everybody uses and unless your'e a real scumbag that has no concious you know that you have screwed somthing up big time and this is what people say to let you know they forgive you.<P>I don't know if you want to go about trying to make your h understand his character right now as this could be construed as a love buster like bring up the affair.<P>Hang in there though and God Bless.

hi sheba,<BR>I have to say that to a point I agree with the book. Title and author please!!<BR>The reason I say this is because in my situation the justifications were already well setup in his mind. And I was in no position to offer the man any assistance in dealing with his own guilt and forgiveness issues.<BR>Sorry to say I was wallowing in my own pain. There would be no way I could ever have uttered to him that it is okay-humans make mistakes. Sure they make them!! This is too obvious, this is why we are all here!!<BR>But how many times should we allow the same mistake? How many times is it truly a mistake? Well, I am not about to pass judgement on those questions-they will be unanswered forever. But I have to agree with the book-it does present new justifications for them.<BR>Sheba, it is very noble of you to support him in his healing, in dealing with his own guilt. But be careful girl...protect your self at all times. Protect your own feelings, don't go farther than you feel comfortable with just to appease him. <BR>Hey, I missed you!!!!

Simone-<BR>My H's therapist seems to be doing the same thing! Somehow presenting leaving his family as an act of courage and strength. It makes me want to puke. No wonder our society is so messed up today.

Sheba,<BR> I think that most of us who are fighting so hard for our marriages are only able to keep on keeping on by telling <B>ourselves</B> that what our spouses did was a terrible mistake--that they are only human, etc. In other words, trying to convince ourselves that what our spouses were not unfaithful because they wanted to hurt us, but because they just goofed up when their heads weren't screwed on straight. We can't be so angry if we can drum up some kind of reason for what they did.<P> Another thing is that we're afraid that if we don't show some compassion for our spouses, they'll never straighten their butts us and return to us--to be loving, faithful spouses.<P> So, I guess we tell our spouses that we understand that they made a mistake, that nothing they've done is unforgiveable, etc. because it's the only form of self-protection from our own anger and the possibility of permanently losing our spouses that we have.<P> Does that make sense? I think I just confused myself!

Simone and Animac - sorry ladies but your H's need new therapists, that is totally absurd!!!! I can't believe the garbage that these idiot counselors spew forth....I have experienced it myself!!<P>I went to quite a few different counselors and therapists and can honestly say that I should have given them reference materials!!!! It's such a racket!!! Oh well, falls in with everything else in society nowadays.<P>You both need to get this book I am reading....<P>"How Could You Do That?" by Dr. Laura (the radio show) Schlessinger.<BR>It's great!!! I like her others "Ten Stupid Things Men Do To Mess Up Their Lives" and Ten Stupid Things Women Do To Mess Up Their Lives" <P>Great honesty and common sense!!!!<P>The first title is where the three C's comes from......got that CL? (missed you too!!)<P>Sounds like this book would make a great gift to the therapist for the holidays!!<BR>Oh, heck - the hubbies too!!<P>BTW -just got it yesterday at Barnes and Noble - Bargain Book @ $5.98!!!! Go get 'em while they last!!!<P>Hi NB - Well, I guess this is why we are here...learning is our life!!! LOL!! You're a good girl, too!!! <P>Hi RWD - Thanks and I agree with you. The reason I mention H's parents is because they are people who do and say what they want, expect others to agree and jump and take no responsibilities for their actions!! I don't want to validate anything like that with my H!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>

Very interesting thread, Sheba...<P>Sweetpea, You are very wise <P>I think you speak the truth. When I was the betrayed, I certainly did this. I kind of wish my H would grant me the same courtesy now that I've been the betrayer, but alas, not all of us react in the same way.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Sheba,<BR>Yes, I agree with the book. No, don't feel guilty you control no one's behavior but your own and see this clarification as a opportunity for growth.<P>We are human. We all make mistakes. To reference you last post it is called sin and no one is innocent.<P>Our society today has a hard time labeling wrong plainly as wrong. Of course there are grey areas, but on a whole we could be better. The trick is after we label the wrong as wrong, we are not to judge the wrong doer. A fine line, but an important one. We addressed this in the Forgiveness Workbook threads. Kind of hate the sin, love the sinner.<P>You are getting deep.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Sheba. Thiss may be too deep for me to night. I'm getting hear after a long busy day. So in reading all of this I may repeat or miss something that was said. I don't understand why phases such as you are only human is a problem. Humans do make mistakes we are not perfect or mistakefree if we were then we be god. But we are above the animal because not only do we think we have emotions. We do know when we do wrong and we know that we should correct our mistakes. So in telling you H he is only human is not giving him permission to behave inapproperately (its late and I can't spell) You are only telling him that you know he can and will make mistakes but you expect him to correct those mistakes and to learn from them. There is my two cents worth or is it just one. You are making my brain hurt and my eyes trying to read all of this. I think I need some good laughs.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

LOL sheba!!! Listen to SHA he is right! <P>In any case, we ARE humans, ( fact), we all make mistakes (fact) and if we didn't we wouldn't learn much. No matter how many examples we look at, we usually only learn after banging our own head against the wall.<P>SO, although I can see where the idea comes from, I don't think using those "sentences" is in any way validating anything, or that they will do any harm. Sure they are excuses, but people usually know why they are used. They do not tend to take it as a permission to make more mistakes.<P>Twin, don't make things more complicated than what they are. Life is complicated enough without entering in semantics <P>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

What? Sorry Sheba, I don't understand a word of it. I'll have a gander at it tomorrow.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Sweetpea - Hi there!! I completely understand what you are saying...<P>I REALLY do believe that the best way to understand their behavior is to look for the reasons why!! Everyone has reasons why they do the things that they do, whether they're legitimate (meaning serious) or whether it's because they felt like it.....there are still reasons.<P>I was always one to look for causes rather than hold on to anger...just me I guess!! For me, the telling myself stuff is all the speculating because he won't tell me the true reasons - if he knows them all himself!! <P>NB - Isn't Sweetpea wise!! I Think - and I know I might get slammed for this, but - that a lot of men have a much harder time with working through the receiving end of the emotions of all this. Maybe cuz men aren't supposed to feel so much per traditional society.<BR>Plus, everyone processes things differently and in their own time.<BR>Hang in there...you two can make it!!<P>FHL - Hi and Thanks!! Yeah, I guess this is a little deep!! LOL!! You know how much I get concerned about his upbringing and when I read this it could certainly be viewed as a validation with the way his parents have taught him!!<P>SDS - I'm sorry!! I didn't mean to give you more stress after a long day!!<BR>Here's a HUG for caring enough to go through it for me!! You're a doll!!<P>Kat - Hey Twin!! I've been thinking of you and wondering how much rest you have or have not been getting!! Send me an update, will ya!!<P>Chris - ?<P>OK - Why did you guys make fun of me? I think that this phrasing thing is important because with my H's background Validation can be grabbed very easily!! His parents instilled in him by their actions that they don't take blame for anything......my H had fortunately not fallen into their way of thinking for a long time. Now he is reaching back and using those childhood lessons to justify his current behavior. <P>In MY situation, it IS very important that my communications do not allow ANY form of not taking responsibility - including being human!!! Simple mistakes like this on my part - could very well be why he has not faced a lot of what is going on in our lives!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba