That was one of my earlier roadblocks, there is no contact info at all besides an email address on their website. I have no idea who monitors that. He may be changing jobs next week and then the problem child will be gone, what then?

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with my advice ... "to each his own", but at least disagree with it in the proper context.

I have NOT suggested that rs "lure a WW back to a marriage" ... I am recommending him seeing the situation for what it is and using the advantage he has at the moment (i.e. his WW abandoning the family for time with OM) to gain full custody and a favorable property settlement, while his WW is "impaired in fogland".

It is my belief that any WW that won't IMMEDIATELY go NC with OM and ESPECIALLY those who rub their BH's faces in their A's, are not quality marriage material anyway and should be left behind and used as "bad examples" for the BH to make better relationship decisions in the future.

It's just playing the percentages ... thinking instead of hoping ... regardless of the Plan used, MOST M's will fail as a result of an A ... and father's typically get screwed in D settlements. Those are simply the cold hard facts.

Therefore, why not use the current situation to turn those FACTS in his favor??? Use this knowledge to actually IMPROVE his situation, rather than WASTE a golden opportunity.

All that I have been doing on this thread is trying to get rs to at least view the situation through clear eyes.

Around here WW "feelings" are discounted, while BH "feelings" are encouraged ... whereas, I support looking at the facts from both perspectives for what they are, rather than what a BH "wishes" they were.

MyRev, I don't think you do have "clear eyes;" rather I see alot of residual anger from your wife's affair which comes through loud and clear in your "kick em to the curb" approach.

I would only point out for the sake of newcomers here, that this is not Dr. Harley's approach and he has saved one or two marriages in his 35 year career as a clinical psychologist. You have saved exactly ONE, MyRev. This man is here to save his marriage, not to kick his wife to the curb.

We have seen many marriages here that are fully recovered where the WS did not go immediately to NC, who rubbed the affair in the BS' nose. If they had followed your advice, they would not have a marriaqe today. Kicking to the curb might be effective in a very few, but in most it is a stupid strategy that only throws the WS into the arms of the OP. And most who come here don't want to end their marriage, but save it.

This man is here to save his marriage, MyRev, please leave him alone to do that.

You advise how you see fit, and I'll do the same. He deserves to review ALL options before making such a decision.


****edit****


MB MYTH ... that is not supported by the actual results observed here. Keep in mind, I was speaking ONLY of BH/WW scenarios, not WH/BW or BS/WS ... there is a distinction.

****edit****

My only offense here was making a rational judgment based on the facts as we know them and recommending a viable option to improve the BH's situation that was contrary to what ML believes.

Rusty, just stick with Marriage Builders concepts and ignore the angry "kick them to the curb" crowd. They speak from anger and bitterness, rather than experience.

We have many recovered marriages on this board that would not be together today had they followed MyRev's bad advice instead of Dr Harley's: BigKahuna, TheWonderings, shattereddreams, Mimi, Mortarman, BrambleRose, among many others. Your marriage has just as much chance as anyone elses here, so don't let angry voices discourage you.

Well, I have a problem with this statement, MyRev...on many levels. Sure, if anyone looks back to my situation, I used every possible mechanism to insure I had the upperhand in court, especially in regards to my children. I went full bore on the custody issue. But custody is not divorce! I never filed for divorce. We went to court twice on custody issues, which I won both. So, I agree that all BSs should go full bore in protecting their kids and their assets. What I do NOT agree with is filing for and pursuing divorce. Divorce does only one thing: makes you divorced.


Does that apply to Mrs. Mortarman? Really?


I am all about playing percentages!! And here are the relevant ones: over 98% of affairs end...of the 2% that makes it to marriage, over 60% of them will go to divorce. You see, those are MUCH WORSE odds than the recovery of a marriage, even if the BS does NO PLAN! And of course, the marriage's odds go way up if Plan A and Plan B are used properly. Most marriages do not fail because of the A. They fail because the BS gives up! I do agree that most fathers get screwed. That is why I advise them to do as I did...to not give in, to make sure they have their custody waterfowl coaxially aligned. But divorce? Nope. Not unless they want to be divorced!


That can be done without divorcing his wife!! I am living proof, as are many others here.


Clear eyes? You have used generalizations which are not supported by facts. Yes, I agree with you that all BSs, especially BHs should go the extra mile to protect themselves and their kids. But that does not need to involve divorce!


I dont discount WSs "feelings." Nor play up the BS's "feelings." And this isnt about wishful thinking. There is a process here. It works EVERY time it is used properly. Not that the WS comes back every time. But the end result always favors the BS and their ability to move on with life.

I got my wife back after four years of he!!, two false recoveries, two trips to court (custody hearings). The WW is truly gone now. At any time during this, I could have given up...and no one would have blamed me. Not even God.

But I deserved more...and so did my kids. We deserved for me to earn my way out of the marriage. So that if it ended for good, that all involved would know that at least Mortarman did everything possible to save the family and the marriage. And in the process, I became a better husband and father.

If I had kicked my wife to the curb, especially after the second time she left for the Troll...I would have a new life with someone else. The Lord would have blessed that life, for sure. But my kids would be bouncing around between two houses. I would not see my kids over 30% of the rest of their lives. Some other man would have influence over them during that time. And to top it off...my wife would have been lost, maybe forever, from the Lord.

If you are a Christian husband, you have a higher calling than making yourself feel good. See my link below!

But even if you arent, you have to decide...what is my wife worth? I decide her value...not her. Not her actions. And not even who the person is that occupies the position as my wife. My wife, no matter who she is, is valuable to me. So valuable that I am willing to go thru he!! to save her...to risk my own life if need be. Value is ALWAYS decided by what someone is willing to pay for it.

Someone thrown to the curb is worth nothing. MyRev, I understand your position (and your anger). I am not sure what the hurry is to throw a spouse away. There is time later for healing, for future relationships, if need be.

Wow MM, thanks.

That is the way I am coming from. I have documented when WW would leave the kids and not see them for almost a week at a time and all that. Her family is on my side that if need be I have the kids. We have had the talk about if we have to do whats best for the kids, and they have told WW that we will do whats best. That really upsets WW but thats the way it is.

My W is worth me doing all I can for her even when she doesnt want it. In the end, at least I will be able to get on with my life no matter the outcome. Do I hope that WW comes home, gets better and becomes W? Yes. Even if that never happens at least I have shown I will do all I can for her, became a better person and father and can go on with my life with no regrets. By the end of this life, I will be happy and reassured. WW will either come home, recover and thank me every day for the rest of her life or she will regret what she has done for the rest of her life. I am hoping to save her from that lifetime of regret.

This is an excellent point, and personally something that I think applies to ALL husbands. We ALL have a higher calling than making ourselves feel good.

"Kick them to the curb", in my opinion, does nothing but assauge the BH's ego. And the calling of marriage should be something beyond ego.

"Kick them to the curb" does not encourage the BH to change anything about the way he relates to his wife... it does not encourage forgiveness... it does not encourage a true partnership. I fail to see how it encourages the BH to anything more than resentment toward his wife and a sense of entitlement. And, on the part of the WW, I fail to see anything but encouragement of more resentment there as well.

Rusty, from what I've read, I also think you're doing the right thing. I'd encourage you to stay the course, because winning your wife's heart back is preferable to forcing her to stay through fear and intimidation...

For this part, lets show how I believe. Plan A/B is about me more than it is about her. If I just kicked her to the curb or brought her back through threats, how would I change for the better? Would I have to keep over her with an iron fist for the rest of our lives? If she didnt come back and I really did nothing, how could I forgive myself knowing I didnt do all I could, how could I get better? Would that not just breed bitterness? Doesnt the bible say for husbands to not be bitter against their W?

I think I am doing the right thing because no matter the outcome, the process made me better.

CuthbertCalculus, have a link to your sitch? I see your sig and I was also extremely neglectful to my W.

Mortarman,

I have no intention of arguing with you ... it is OBVIOUS that we are two distinct personalities.

I see two glaring differences in our approaches/personalities.

I've read some of your posts and its obvious that you give religion a high priority in your everyday life ... whereas, I am actually anti-organized religion and believe that it causes MANY more problems than it ever actually solves.

I have also witnessed many religious BH's proclaiming a "stay married at all costs" position, which you seem to advocate, that seem to have achieved the bare minimum in their recovery ... they are MARRIED in name only.

Also, I have a huge need to maintain my SELF-RESPECT, and have even posted about advocating placing "RESPECT" as a seperate identifiable EN. There are BH's, myself included, that simply couldn't look at themselves in the mirror after having allowed themselves to be disrespected like you claim happened in your M.

Possibly my beliefs stem from the fact that I've survived a previous D and successfully raised children in a divided home. In our situation, although I recognize mistakes I made along the way, in retrospect, I truly believe that my children benefitted from seperate, but relatively sane parents, as opposed to watching the two people they loved most in a state of constant conflict.

IMHO, this is not a "one size fits all" type of situation and all options should be on the table and discussed openly. It is then up to the individual BH as to which approach best fits his situation and personality type.

RS's WW is fence sitting at the least. Rubbing her PA in his face. This should be enough motivation to file for full custody and to cut off his WW financially. Even getting a lawyer to have her pay half the mortgage and CS because she has abandoned the family.

Most importantly RS, needs to use this strategy to push his WW off the fence. Just plan A'ing is not enough.

Why just dangle a carrot in front off the mule?

When you can get the mule pushed and pulled.

Is it not better to employ as many simultaneous efforts at the same time instead of one at a time?

This is a link to a post I made summarizing my sitch. I wrote this almost four years ago, when the events were still fresh.

Since then, my wife and I have faced a lot of external pressures on our lives... especially dealing with my MIL, who is developing Alzheimer's... but we've managed to deal with our pressures and stresses by drawing closer together rather than drifting farther apart. We've dealt with each other compassionately and I can only say the marriage is deeper, richer and more fulfilling now than it was when I wrote the link!

In my opinion, every husband can stand to make some changes to treat their wives better... because I believe Love Busting is default human behavior, something we all engage in unless we know better.

Edited to add: in my linked post, I made mention of the fact that I thought my wife was an "NF" Myers-Briggs personality type. I have since figured out that she is actually an "SJ" type. That made a LOT more sense once I figured it out. If you are not familiar with the MBTI, please disregard this sentence

Agreed.


So? I havent said one word about organized religion. How does that apply here?


Because of my relationship with God, I believe what He has said about marriage...not what I want to believe about it. I bring up what the Lord has said concerning this, for those that are Christians or want to know more. But I do not believe in a stay married at all costs. Nowhere in what I wrote here can you find evidence that I do believe that! Even the Bible doesnt say that!


You know something, I was abused. No doubt about it! But here is the problem with self-respect...it leads to "I". A marriage cannot survive on "I". Witness the actions of the WS...they are all about "I". Let's take religious talk off the table here for a sec. What are the normal vows we take in marriage? Dont we say we will honor and support the marriage even in bad times? Isnt an affair "bad times"? Did we qualify our vows with "well, only THIS bad or THAT bad"? And if we didnt set any limit, then arent we breaking our own vows if we try to leave the marriage?

There were no conditions in the vows that I would stay as long as my wife behaved. There were no conditions in the vows that I would stay as long as she made me happy.

So, how much self-respect can you have if you make a vow to this person, and then break it?


But, they would have better benefitted from two sane parents, still married in the same household. Divorce ALWAYS harms children!


But you aren't pushing an approach...you are pushing a surrender! Maybe it is from being retired Army, but I do not surrender! To anyone (except God!). Anyone can quit! That is the EASY way out. Quitting takes no effort, no intestinal fortitude. Quitting teaches us nothing!

My children and my wife are better off because of what I went through, what I was willing to pay. And that makes me better off.

As I have said, anyone can quit...and no one would blame the BS. Some cannot take it. Some are weaker than others. The road less travelled is the hard road...but has the most benefits and rewards!

Plan A does include a stick component... and everything you describe can be done as a part of Plan A. Plan A is not just the carrot...

She has her own job and I was virtually a stay at home dad. I have my own business and work 2 days a week right now. Having to crank it up because of this.

MIL is helping me decide exactly what to do because she went through leaving WW's father 26 years ago. The heavy handed approach my FIL used did not work with MIL and it will not work here. All that did was drive them away. I was just plain mean to my W a lot and that is why being mean will not work now. It will not help me become the person I need to be, if that means WW never comes back...at least my next W would get a new and improved me.

The Road,

Seeking custody should be his goal! Not because of trying to do anything to his wife. But because the children should remain in the family home with the one sane parent!

Plan Aing is not even for the WS, although there are things that move the WS in Plan A. Plan A is for the BS!!

And MyRev responded:

Actually you are wrong, MyRev. I've been reading here for 8+ years and have seen hundreds of Marriages recover using MB concepts where the husband was the betrayed spouse. Those ARE actual results, sir.

Just because they no longer post does not mean they don't exist.

Jo

Just beautiful MM...that brought tears to my eyes...

As weird as this may seem, I never really understood or believed that Mr. W really loved me until after the affair/plan A...Now, that does NOT mean that I am "glad" for the affair...ugh, no way...it was the WORST thing that I have ever done and I'd give ANYTHING to be able to go back and choose otherwise...

Obviously I cannot do that, but I just wanted to pipe up and tell Rusty that he should listen to those of you advising him to stay the course...it works...The amount of respect that I have for Mr. W could never be expressed in words...but he knows...my actions now, show him daily...and his show me that I am "cherished" by him...I believe to my core that so many WWs don't feel "cherished" by their husbands pre-affair, and I always recommend using that specific word with her if you have the chance...I think that word touches a woman's heart in a very special way...

Rusty, a BS that properly executes Plan A is awe inspiring...As I've said many, many times on this forum, it is the very definition of AMAZING GRACE...And if your wife does snap out of it, you WILL be her HERO for walking this path...No doubt about it...It is NOT a weak position, but rather a position of incredible strength...gentle strength...the BEST kind!

Mrs. W

P.S. Mortarman, your presence here has been oh so missed and needed! Mr. W and I read all of your posts on this thread together...smiling...Glad you're back dear friend!

OK, have it your way ... I'm a non-believer, period. I will take responsibility for my own actions and will work out of my problems on my own without the need for mythical devine intervention.


This is probably where our true disagreement comes from ... marriage is like a contract, and when one party breaks that contract then IMHO the other person is released from the bonds of that committment. Even your Bible agrees on this point.


Sorry, but I don't buy that. You may live in a black and white world, but the world as I see it is varying shades of grey. There are very few ALWAYS and NEVERS. Since I lived the situation ... it has become MY reality, regardless of your or anyone else's opinion on the matter.


You OBVIOUSLY haven't read many of my posts. My guess is we just define "winning", "quitting" and "surrender" MUCH differently.

In the case at hand, I view full custody of the children and a preferential property settlement as a "WIN" for the BH, whereas you see it as "quitting" and "surrender".

MB is not even consistent on this issue as I've read on numerous occassions where Dr. Harley has written that he wouldn't attempt R if he found himself in the role of a BH.


Ahhh ... the MARTYR syndrome.

Again, I'm sorry, but we all make mistakes in judgment, and we only have an increasing short time on this earth. I have a lot more respect for a man who recognizes his mistakes, takes responsibility for them, learns from them and makes better judgments in the future, than I do for one who simply "endures" the results of his mistakes.

Now obviously the best of both worlds (regarding infidelity) is if you can learn from those mistakes and make a mutually beneficial better future together. My W and I have learned a great deal from this site ... primarily we have embraced the "MB language" so we can deal with relationship issues from a common point of view, rather than the "she said/he heard" perspective that almost ruined a very good thing.

... and THAT is the defining issue. We had a VERY GOOD M pre-A, but MOST that are affected by infidelity do not. There must be a solid foundation to rebuild on, and most simply don't have that luxury. Therefore, MOST would be well served to take advantage of opportunities as they present themselves and move on with their lives.

Mrs. W...it is good to be back!

And yes, Mr. W is one of the guys on here that is a HUGE success story. I remember when both of you first came here. How much doubt he had. How resentful you were. I also remember the day you wrote that your eyes had been open to who Mr. W truly was (is).

After that, it is all simple!

I am glad both of you are still here, as a testimony on how it can be. Mr. W many times was ready to quit. Sometimes he couldnt even understand why he was even trying.

But, the character of an individual is measured by what he/she does in private...what they do even if it doesnt feel right.

You have yourself a winner, Mrs. W.