Okay. You have that choice! Even God gives you that.


Actually, it doesnt! First off, God said He hates divorce...ALL divorces. No matter who filed or who did what to whom. He hates them! Second, as Jesus said, divorce was ALLOWED due to the hardness of our hearts. Do you know what that means? It isnt speaking of the WS...it is speaking of the BS. The BS's inability to endure...to trust God.

When it comes to this contract, there werent conditions set. Actually, let me take that back. I said I would love, honor and cherish, in sickness and in health, in good times and bad, until death do us part. Now, my end of the contract requires me to live up to that...no matter what the other party does in this. Remember, marriage isnt JUST a legal contract, it is a covenant (and that doesnt have to mean a covenant in the religious perspective). Covenants have a legal part to them...but are much broader. So, relating a marriage to a busniess contract is relating apples with oranges.


You dont have to buy it. But it is the truth. Children are better off with both their father and their mother, living in marriage together and loving each other. Any other way, they lose out on something. It might be small, it might be big. But the children ALWAYS lose. You can tell yourself they havent...but the facts say differently. The studies say differently. Ask yourself...if I have a child today with my wife, isnt in his best interest for both of us to love each other and provide a home together? But hey, who knows? You may think differently and it doesnt matter what the parents do as long as they love the kids. But, sorry to say, the facts point in a different direction!


I got full custody. I retained the marital assets (or most of them). But guess what? Those were just battles in the bigger war. The bigger war was our family, my wife, our marriage. Yo usee, too many people believe that your kids come before your spouse. How sad! My wife comes before my kids. Now, saying that, when she was all fogged out, I did the best thing I could for the kids and her by gaining custody of the children and protecting them while she was a wayward.

As I said, the route you took was simple! It was very simple for me to get custody. It was very simple for me to get the assets. So what??? The hard part was fighting the war and loving my wife. The hard part was loving someone that did not love me at the time.


You have taken this out of context, MyRev. I have met with Dr. Harley (and Steve). I have counseled with Steve. I can assure you, they believe in saving marriages and families! The first thing Steve asked my wife in our first counseling session (while she was still in the middle of the A) was "isnt it better for your children to grow up in a home where their mother and father love eah other?"


Who said anything about being a martyr? It wasnt about debasing myself or sacrificing myself. it was about loving another person, the person that I had married and was the mother of my kids.


And this statement is why we have so many divorces, even with adultery! It is the "me, me, me" syndrome. Got to get all I can before I die, because there is nothing after that. How sad.


As I said, surrender and quitting is easy!

Ya'know Mortarman ... every now and then you run across someone that is just your exact polar opposite ... I think we both may have met that person today, as it appears that we both view each other as fundementally flawed in our approach to life in general.

You missed the point. Nowhere does Dr Harley say that every marriage should be saved. Plan A and Plan B are for those who CHOOSE to save their marriages. Many people do not choose to save their marriages. That in no way means that "MB is not consistent."

[this is beside the point, but I asked him about that statement once and he told me that Joyce said she "would kill him" if he did it. His point was that we never really know what we would do until we are in that situation]

statistic from DivorcePeers:


Footnote 2: "Anatomy of an Affair," Men's Health: Best Life, Spring/Summer 2003, Laurence Roy Stains, page 78 — source: "Secret-Sex Stats," citing Anthony DeLorenzo, author of 28 Tell-Tale Signs of a Cheating Spouse and president of Infidelity.com; the study The Impact of Extramarital Relationships on the Continuation of Marriage; and the book Just Married. here

I dont think you are my polar opposite. I just believe that you dont want to necessarily match up your beliefs with the facts.

I have always said that if I am wrong on something, show me the facts and I will change my mind...cause I hate being wrong.

The OM (the Troll) found his first wife with some guy. He attempted to beat him up, and then promptly divorced this woman he had two young girls with and was his high school sweetheart. He never could understand why I fought for my wife from him. He thought I would quit just as he did.

I talked to him about this once. I told him that it is obvious that I value my wife more than he valued his. That is a fact based on what I was willing to pay, versus what he was willing to pay (nothing).

So, in my kids eyes, their Mom is worth a heck of a lot because their Dad showed them what her value is. In the Troll's girls eyes, their Dad just showed that their Mom was just a wrothless adulteress.

Of course, the OM hated me saying this...but deep down he knew it was true. I even said "hey look...even you see the value of my wife because you are working so hard to get her! Whereas, I would never go after your ex-wife." I loved the seething response to that one!


But the point is that value is ALWAYS defined by what someone is willing to pay for that thing. Mrs. Wondering has HUGE value that all can see, based on what Mr. W paid for her. She is the envy of many women that wish they had a husband that would give half of what he did for his wife.

Although its obvious that you would NEVER admit it ... given the content of your post ... Thanks, for agreeing with me ... POLAR opposites!!!

Some very thought provoking posts here, and hopefully we're not thread jacking RS's thread.

"Kicking a WS to the curb" is an interesting concept, but in my experience, at least with my own WW, she had effectively left the marriage, both mentally and physically, when she chose to engage in the affair. She chose a path she viewed as one of the greener pasture variety.

Once her EN's were being met by someone else, I was of little value to her, and at some point she consciously made the decision the OM was more valuable to her than me. In effect, I was the one kicked to the curb.

From what I have perceived from these forums over the past few years is that women, not all, but most, have to establish romantic feelings before they become sexually involved with an OM. In order to do so, they forfeit "most" of their feelings for their BH. I can hardly think of two events that can cause more damage to a man's ego than having their W fall "out of love" with them, and for them to have sex with another man (or woman).

So by the time discovery is at hand, a man's heart has been jerked out of his chest, thrown to the ground, set on fire and run over by a tank. A man's self esteem has taken the worst pounding it will ever get, in my opinion, at this point.

This is where Mortarman's words come into play. What is the value of the WW in the BS's life? What will a BS endure in order to give that damaged marriage a chance? In Plan A there is certainly lots of opportunity to be treated like a doormat, and experience further damage to your ego and self esteem, HOWEVER, Plan A is counter intuitive to start with, and very much a learning experience. Not only are you correcting those things that made you a less than stellar husband, but also you are re-focusing on things you once did to put your spouse first. Romantic things you did during courting and thoughtful things you did, just because, and correcting things that were not conducive to a healthy marriage. During Plan A you begin to see more clearly what and where your boundaries are, and take the proper steps to see they are maintained. This reduces the abuse you take from an uncaring and abusive WW.

Perhaps digging in and executing a stellar Plan A is in part a price we have to pay for NOT having been great husbands before the A, even if we considered the marriage a pretty good one...before we knew better. But, up to a point, the longer we execute a good Plan A, the more we shape our own character, and know better what we expect out of the marriage should we reconcile with our WW. It is a learning and growing experience that is in constant flux. That is not to say that Plan A does not have time limitations, though.

Of course there is no "one size fits all" solution to reconciling a marriage damaged by infidelity. However, the Harley's have been at this a long time and have seen a great deal of success from people who have used their principals. But like fingerprints, each of us have our own personalities, and for married couples to go through infidelity and find their way back to a happily recovered marriage is no less complex than the universe itself.

Using Harley's often proven marriage recovery principals is a better bet than going off in some uncharted direction, IMHO. In fighting the infidelity in your marriage, here you have established concepts coupled with an unbelievable support group in these forums. I have not heard of any other website, marriage counselor, church or other school of thought that is as complete as the MB experience.

With that being said, there are many who post here right after their own personal discoveries of infidelity who post a few times and disappear forever. MB is not for everyone. And that is fine. But my advice to anyone whose life is touched by infidelity would be to execute the MB system first, and work through all the steps and options available here, rather than to "fly by the seat of their pants" with uncharted schemes that lack evidence of success or this kind of support.

Brilliantly said, Shattered!

MyRev...my mistake. I thought we would be closer, in that I falsely believed you would be looking for facts to base your opinions on. Facts that would support your position on children of divorce, marriages, infidelity, etc.

My mistake. Sorry.

Great post, shattereddreams!

You remind me of another BH that used to post here ... ForeverHers ... he too was very religious and believed that he had a monopoly on the truth. I found it best to use the board's "ignore" feature on him, along with a couple of others.

Goodbye.

I dont believe I have a monopoly on truth! As I have told you, I am seeking truth. The advice you give is not supported by fact. That is truth. The advice given by Dr. Harley has been supported in many cases by truth. That is fact.

What you and I believe is irrelevent (which is why I am not talking to you about God) to this discussion. What is relevent is giving Rusty the facts in order to help him in his time of need.

"Ignore" and "quit" are the same thing, unfortunately!

Thank you Mrs. W

You guys have greatly inspired me and helped me to see the path I need to take. Kicking her to the curb would be the easy thing to do and all. We have very few assets and I am slowly selling them off as we speak. I need the cash since I am boke right now and they dont really mean that much to me.

Mortarman,

Your one post about loving your wife more than your children, wow. Dave Ramsey has talked about that on his show a few times and I was sloghtly confused usually. Your children will always be your children, your W is someone you have chosen to be with through it all. You should love your wife more than anyone else on the face of the earth.


If my W comes back, I know that she will appreciate what I have done for her and she will have been worth it. If not, then I will go on knowing that I did all I could.

Rusty,

The Bible says that when we marry, we become one with our spouse. One person. Our children are something we created. They have a part of us in them. But they are their own entities.

Your wife is not her own...and neither are you. Until death do you part, you are one person. That is what I was referring to!

Keep up the good work.

Dont worry about that one bit. Most of these posts have been really inspiring.

Thank you SD. You put it into words better than I could have.

That makes it better for me. I knew that I loved my W even more than my children but I didnt know why. I tried to understand it. It was right in front of me and now I see it is because we are one and you love her as you love yourself. Thanks for that.

I just wanted to thank all of you posting for taking time out of your life to help me with my problems. It is something you are doing out of your hearts and I wanted to make sure you know how appreciated it is.

Thank you

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{[Rusty}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I want you know I have forgiven you for tricking me!

Thanks. I just figured everybody knew Rusty Shackelford lol.

Maybe you should have been Art Vandalay?