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Hi cat... I really gotta find KLD's thread. Is it here on EN?


I dunno, that bothers me too. That's why every now and then I think that the wives who are in a M recovering from an affair are better off, at least now with the improved M.

Unfortunately, after giving it lots of thought, I don't think I'd be better off without him. The kids are better off in a two-parent household (not just because 2 parents are better than one, but also because this one parent is a better parent when she's not the only parent); I benefit from having someone to share the work and responsibility, even if he doesn't come through as often as I'd like... it's still better than nothing; I benefit from having a guy in the house to do the hard physical stuff.

So, I can't see myself giving any ultimatums, or setting any boundaries, because I have no way to enforce anything.

Life is weird isn't it? I think I wouldn't be able to put up with some of what you put up with, and yet here I am putting up with other things and unable to make my own M better.

He did call while they were out shopping, to discuss whether getting DS6a a nice "mote-control" helicopter was ok instead of the "mote-control" airplane that he assures us Santa is bringing him. H thought the helicopter was better, more durable and easier to fly for a little kid, whereas the only plane we saw he thinks won't last very long. But DS assures us Santa is NOT bring a helicopter, it's an airplane for sure. So that was a good 5 or 10 minute conversation of the pros and cons of helicopters vs. airplanes.

Maybe I should tell y'all every single conversation we have for a day or two, to give a better idea. Over dinner I asked about whether we need to go shopping tomorrow as well, since some new friends asked us over around 2:00. H said most stores are only open 12:00 - 4:00 tomorrow so we prolly can't make it to the friends'. He did start out with jokingly saying I can go shopping tomorrow and he'll stay home. So that maybe took 5 minutes. I also asked if they got everything they were looking for, he said mostly.

ETA: In between getting the kids in the shower and putting their sheets in the dryer, I told H that the toilet was stopped up. He didn't answer. I didn't tell him he had to unstop it, and I really wasn't expecting anything, but I was busy and was informing him so that if he chose to help out, he could do so. No biggie, I'm not complaining cus he didn't jump up and take my hinted request, I'm just reporting some communication. If I'd really wanted him to do something, I would've said so directly.

ETA again: I think he thinks everything is fine, maybe even good; and I'm coming off as bitchy, when I let my cynicism show.

Jayne, there's a book Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson from Focus on the Family. It talks about precipitating a crisis to end the cake-eating of an affiar. Boundaries in Marriage applies that to lots of other situations, including those you describe. I'd be glad to talk with you about boundaries in the morning. If you're ready to get to work. I don't want to assume. Maybe you want time to enjoy being with your mom for now. I think you can do both. LA told me to start with the idea "Separate and Equal" We can go over a scenario like the picking up the kids if you like. I'd love to hear your rough drafit. IMO I think you want to still ask, to leave that door open, but have a backup plan. Like maybe arrange with the aftercare person to bring the kids home or something. They can usually use the extra money.

Jayne, people have a personality. Often that will not change.

Can you live with your husband quiet as he is? Or do you need more?

People dont really change very much. How did you end up marrying a man you were not compatable with? This was a huge mistake.

Then you went on to create children with him.

He is not a bad man, nor a man that can change, his personality is just not one you like. You two are not compatable.

I wish I knew what you could do marrying the wrong, incompatable man and trying to live with him.

Push push push, you will not be able to CHANGE his basic personality.

Jayne, I didn't see your last post last night. I'm glad to hear that everything is good from your H's perspective, sounds a lot easier to pick up from there instead of you both being unhappy.

If you go to Active Topics, early Friday morning Amazin bumped Pepperband's post about boundaries. I'm trying to get clear on what the boundary issue you are looking at is, more specifically. "I am not picking up the kids 5 days a week." doesn't really sound like where your boundary is to me, it sounds like something you two can negotiate. Maybe you would be enthusiastic picking them up in the evening if he dropped them off in the morning. I would think there would be a lot of win-win possibilities there.

I'm ok with taking them to school 99% of the time (the occasional illness, being out of town, early appointment etc is the other 1%) and I'm ok with picking them up 99% of Mon., Tues., Thurs., Fri. It's just on Wednesdays when I have an evening class that is difficult for me to pick them up and get them home and wait on him to get home so I can drive back to work. Several times this past semester I had to just bring them back with me and they either sat in the back of the room or in my office.

I think I picked them up 10 times and he picked them up 5 times. Before we moved here I told him of the schedule they'd given me, and asked if he could assume responsibility for picking them up on Wed.

It's the sudden backing out that leaves me scrambling to rearrange my schedule, that is so very stressful. So I think I'm better off assuming he won't ever pick them up. What do you think?

What BCs do I want? I'll try to think about that. In the past it would be things like, talk to Steve Harley; commit to a date night every other week; try to have some RC time and some UA time each week, say 30 minutes a night and twice that on weekends and an occasional date night; discussing some things like a budget, establishing parenting guidelines, etc. I've given up on all of those so I'm not sure what BCs I'd want now.

"It's the sudden backing out that leaves me scrambling to rearrange my schedule, that is so very stressful. So I think I'm better off assuming he won't ever pick them up. What do you think?"

This is a good question....which is best:

1. You could continue to enable him by rescuing him every Wed when he fails to pick up the kids like he is supposed to.

2. You could pick them up all the time to eliminate any enabling behavior on your part or "counting on him" thoughts.

3. You could simply count on him to pick them up on Wednesdays. And let him do it.

4. You could ask him to pick up the kids every night. Then, drop down to only Wednesday's. This would teach him how to do it. He would then be glad to do it ONLY on Wednesday's.

*This is my version of "Asking for more than what you need and you will eventually get what you need"


What are the problems he has with picking them up on Wed? I would like to know why he cannot seem to do it. What are his reasons for not doing it? What are his excuses. Are they real important reasons when he fails to get the kids on Wed and you have to rearrange your schedule? We need to explore these issues.

Is he rebelling against you passive agressivly by not getting the kids? Is he immature and knows you, MAMA, will enable him to fail in this task and clean up after him? Is he just irresponsible in many ways and does not care?

I would like to see the reasons he does not pick up the kids on Wednesday.

Another thing is

If no one picks your children up, how much does it cost for the extra time? What is the worst that can happen if no one picks them up?

Part of the reason women don't earn as much as men in the university setting is caused by just the dilemma you describe. Someone has to pick up the kids, or take time off when they are sick and unfortunately this usually is the mother.

Have you discussed with your husband the stress that this causes you, and how it will hurt your career overall? He may not be aware of these issues. Another thing, are you still working on your degree, or have you finished? He may not have made the switch in his mind that your career is as important as his. Perhaps deep down he doesn't feel your career is as important.

People do what they want to do, and clearly he doesn't want to be responsible for picking up the kids. Is it possible to leave them at the daycare until you finish your class? Maybe if you have to accrue some extra expenses for this your husband will notice that its an issue. However, if you keep enabling him to bail on this, he won't see it as important.

I think that you need to discuss this together. I know you're new in town, but I don't understand how you and your H don't have one friend that you two could ask to help you all out one day a week. Aren't you university folks, and have a job wanted board for the students where you can put that you are looking for someone to pick up your kids and wait with them at home one day a week until you get home?

To me, jayne, there are two separate issues. You need to fix the Wednesday issue, and you need to address his choosing to back out of his commitments to you and the kdis. It is a huge LB$ withdrawal for you, jayne. You've mentioned it again and again. That does affect your LB$. But you can make it easier on yourself and your kids while you work towards the honesty and reliability part. Let him earn your trust back in smaller ways before subjecting your kids to this week after week. What message does it send to your kids that their dad makes priomises and backs out again and again.

Or, jayne, maybe you're withdrawn instead of invested here. Maybe you're a renter, looking for the short-term solution over the long-term one. Not believing in your H, that he's worth being a buyer into. If you tell yourself that DS is a bigger need for you than a fulfilling M, then you can watch the rest of the LB$ drain out. I think more of Seabird's W than KLD. She got so withdrawn that she couldn't see her H's changes until she had overdrawn his account, too.

Like Stella said, have you told him how you feel about this? Have you talked about specifically the backing out? What are your feelings here? Wht does he do when you share your experience with him as your equal? When you explain what the situation does to you and the kids? Does he start hollering and pushing your physically? Get angry and stonewall you? Does he listen patiently but not offer any solutions? Listen to you and work together on a solution, and then back out later? What about making back up plans at the time, when you are making the original plans?



Jayne, are you a renter or a buyer here? Why are you giving up on these things? Because you lost faith in your H, that he wants you to be happy? Do you think he'd rather be on the computer than making love to you? Than spending time in fun RC with you?

Jayne, I hear you talk about, "I give up. I want to just live as coparrents together." Do you see that this is how Hold describes his relationship? Do you see how it depresses and immobilizes him? Do you see how he warns folks about that path, to stay away? Do you think that what you are proposing shows your kids what a marriage of two people who love and respect one another looks like?

I believe that your thougths and actions are lining up. And when you choose to believe in your H again, the actions will follow then, too. As they have for you before. As Pepperband describes in those Giver and Taker posts. Remember what she said, beliefs are easier to change than actions.

Jayne, you didn't give up on me when I needed you to support me in trying to believe in my M. I am trying to do that for you today, jayne to express my belief in you and what you can create in your life.

Jayne, do you realize how sad this sounds? I don't mean to depress you, but honestly, why do you have to settle for this? Just to have a man to take care of things? I'll tell you what you guys always tell me - talk to him! Who cares if he doesn't want to hear it? He chose to marry you; he has certain obligations, including giving you a certain amount of respect for hearing your concerns.

I think you really need to question exactly what you feel for him, and whether it's an honest feeling, or just a decision to settle. You deserve better than that.

ETA: Forgot to say that KLD's thread is over in General Questions II. If I find it, I'll bump it for you.

Ok guys I owe you an update.

I'm sick. I'm tired of getting sick so easily. So anyway, I'm not thinking too clearly, but I'll post a little. I'm not sure what I have, muscle aches and headaches and earaches so maybe flu? But I had a flu shot... I've been in bed ever since yesterday morning. My last action before feeling sick was to honor H's request for morning SF... just a HJ cus I wasn't very in the mood, prolly cus I was getting sick... but he so rarely asks, now this is I think the third weekend in a row!!! Even if I wasn't in the mood I wanted to do something for him cus I get so few opportunities to meet his ENs, since he so rarely admits having any.

I feel like I was a horrible person over Christmas, prolly cus I was allowing myself to wallow in self-pity. YUCK!!!

I know what I was saying a few days ago sounds sad. I know it sounds like I'm settling. I don't know if it's settling for less than the best available... maybe settling for human, for less-than-perfect. I have my flaws too, that a lot of men wouldn't put up with. I am not the typical woman who either spends time on her looks and/or spends time making a spectacular home. In fact, I'm not really sure what I do for him.

I was married to my "soul-mate" before. He cheated on me, left me for a drug-dealing bartender. Once I left her a $20 for getting him out of my life. I wouldn't want him back now. I'm a totally different person... even though at age 20 I thought he was my "soul-mate".

So it seems I've now gone the exact opposite. Less of the emotional googly-eyes, but the security.

Thanks for the update jayne, I had been wondering what you were up to.
Are you getting any time off work over the holiday period? Are you eating well? Are you sleeping enought?
Know that feeling. Had much luck at getting him to answer the question of whether you are or not yet? Best I have had so far is 'well enought for now"
Good riddence to bad rubbish I say

:MerryChristmas: :happynewyear:

[quotew]Are you getting any time off work over the holiday period? Are you eating well? Are you sleeping enought?[/quote]

Yes, I don't have to physically be at work until sometime after New Year's. there's still stuff to do that would keep me plenty busy if I was up to thinking.

I didn't sleep hardly at all last night, I kept getting chilled/too hot. Also my muscles ached every time I moved.

Trying to eat decently, H is bringing me stuff.

I hate being sick and I'm a horrible patient. You'd think as long as I was stuck in bed I could at least enjoy the time reading or watching tv. Instead I just ache, and kill time online waiting for this headache to go away.

Well poopy! My computer died a couple days before Christmas, and this new one doesn't know my passwords. So I'm logged on here using my backup id. But I also just found out I can't remember how to log into my gmail account... and in order to retrieve my gmail password they want my Delta frequent flyers number... but to get my frequent flyer number I need to be able to log into Delta... which requires my frequent flyer number!!!!!

Here's a big secret for that. In Microsoft Outlook, they have something called Notes. Little Post-It notes that you create for keeping information. I have one for financial info, H's credit card info, my credit card info, D18's stuff, etc. I print them out every once in a while and store them in a file. That way I have all my passwords, etc.

Jayne, here's my filter, I'm asking for clarification. This sounds to me like Hold describes, the situation presented in The Passionate Marriage. Where both parnets are undifferentiated, which means they both have buy-in or payoff for keeping the status quo. And then one partner grows to where thoe payoffs aren't enough anymore, they want to get a differentiated relationship with their partner, where they are both bringing out the best in each other, taking risks together. Like this move, for example, because you both saw that for you two, with the SAHD situation, the limited payoffs that provided, weren't worth it anymore. So you took this risk together. You can do this! You two do have what it takes when you want to

Hold describes it as, he's not willing to change to give more, for what his wife is willing to provide. And he doesn't see her changing to provide what he would want. Yet he doesn't want to give up living with his kids, either. Makes a lot of sense. Yet at the same time, it's sad that they are not wrking on the same page together to make the changes so they could both be happy.

So jayne, I see it as there are some things that you are willing to make, and others you are not. But if you keep doing the same thing, you're going to get the same results. If you two keep prioritizing your careers over your home life, how can your home life change? With the leftovers that you two put into it? Even your body is telling you this isn't working for you.

How do you see all this? Am I close? What do you think about getting that book, The Passionate Marriage? I think that it may help you motivate yourself in your MB plan to save your marriage.

I respect your judgement, jayne. I know better days are ahead for you. I know that you have the knowledge and the will to make a life for yourself that would make you healthy again.

I will put The Passionate Marriage on my list. I sure wish I kept that list in a place I would have it when I go to a bookstore! Dec. 23 I was in a bookstore for the first time since moving here, and I couldn't remember what books were on my list! I ended up getting Gary Chapman's "The Family You've Always Wanted" and Stormie Omartian's "Lord, I Want to Be Whole". I thought of getting Stormie's "Power of a Praying Wife" but I figured maybe I needed to fix myself before I prayed for God to fix H!

I have a quick question: Y'all have been suggesting I find some female friends. Well I've just been surfing craigslist, I have a tendency to waste hours drooling over the pet ads and I was also looking for childcare services, when I just now noticed that the personal ads include a "platonic" category! And there's a category labelled "w4w". Ok, does this mean what it probably means, and I shouldn't go there, or is this actually a reasonable way to find some women in the area who want to be friends? Really and truly JUST friends? Two hetero women who want to talk to other hetero women, KWIM? Knowing me, I'd prolly reply and get myself into an embarrassing situation! :MrEEk:

I think it would be safer to join some church groups, or join a tennis club, or whatever it is you like to do for fun. In our area, we have Bunko clubs, a club for mothers who exercise together, stuff like that.