He said something like "Ok then." or "Ok fine" (but not in the tone that teenage girls use!) two or three times. At the time in the conversation he said it, it was like he was saying ok to putting the glass jar back. That's why I tried to explain it wasn't just the one jar.

I wonder if our H's were pouting similarly to cat's H.

Yes I hope I was just asserting boundaries, and I tried to do it in a respectful but concise way.

*hug* Thanks for going to the bank with me!

*I wonder sometimes if they're the ones with hormonal symptoms and they blame us because ours are physically evident.*

FWIW, I wouldn't play. That seemed to work, since he approached me later and apologized for his reaction.

I have done this, and then pushed the chair out and stood in front of the computer
It seemed to get his attention for a few minutes

LOL

So, one thing leading to another on T2L's thread started me thinking about Star Wars and all... I have just a few minutes cus we're going shopping as soon as H gets off the phone. But I was thinking that I'm pretty geeky, and before we got married I thought H was geeky too... I mean, our major RC thing together when we first met was a MUD. His password on things is from a scifi series. etc.

Now I have a hard time figuring out what he'd like for RC. I'm still into geeky things, even Marvel comics now, which I know a lot of guys would love talking to a girl who knows her way around the Marvel universe. I thought it would be something he'd like to share, but no. He doesn't read any of his scifi books anymore and he doesn't want any new ones. Now it's more the books his parents hand down to us.

I claim *I* introduced him to mtn biking, he claims he was already into it... so that's a possible RC. It's taken a looooooong time for me to recover from having the kids though, so that's only been an option recently. Ditto skiing. Both of those we also do with the kids though, so that wouldn't count toward UA.

Gotta go, I just was trying to brainstorm RC / UA stuff that he might like. I'm open to suggestions.

Do you have the equivalent to a Chamber of Commerce there? Visit it and ask for a list of activities in your area. Then sit down with him with the list, or go for a walk and read out the list, see what he likes.

That's a good idea... there may be lists of activities in newspapers too...

I'd also like to find a way to include some heart-healthy activities. The physical heart I mean, cardio. I've been concerned about his puffy hands for awhile now. I remember as a kid at a revival the evangelist talked about seeing Elvis and he noticed "clubbing" in his hands, and he talked about how that was a sign of an imminent heart attack or something... and a week later Elvis was dead. That has always stayed with me, and that's how H's hands look now. I mentioned it to my mom and she agrees. I'm gonna try to get him to get a physical. But I asked if he'd go if I made him an appointment, and he said no. But it was just a very subtle head-shake no, not verbal or anything, so maybe he isn't totally opposed.

There are spin classes offered where I work, he used to do such things a lot.

Well, Happy New Year everyone! Does anyone else make New Year's Resolutions? I'm thinking of making some:

1- Arrange for both me and H to get physicals.
2- Renew my commitment to not LB.
3- Actively and creatively try to meet ENs.
4- But I don't wanna become a martyr - set up another appointment with Steve, and work out a plan to improve this M.
5- Spend less time online and more time with my family.
6- Get back on track with Tools and FlyLady.
7- Well my, my... just be an all-around Goddess!!!



:happyholidays: :happynewyear:

:happynewyear:


Mine might have to be 'spend less time on MB'

HEY YOU!!!!

Well, for me it would be less time on MB and less time drooling over pedigrees...

I'm having a real hard time with POJAing things I really want when he can unilaterally decide all sorts of stuff. Yesterday he revealed something to me: he feels he does give me a say on where things go in the house, because he "went along" when I said I wanted to keep the armoire we bought for the bedroom. We weren't sure, and were discussing sending it back, with his folks. At first I was all for sending it back, and it was still in the garage and was extremely heavy. I was ok with leaving it there and having it shipped back, but H and FIL wanted to carry it into the bedroom (scary!) and see how it looked. Once it was in there, I kinda liked it and leaned towards keeping it. We all were talking and it was decided to keep it. So yesterday H said he was "60-40" in favor of sending it back, but since he went along with keeping it, that means he lets me have my way.

For once in my life I was thinking fast on my feet, and realized that means he'll let me have my way as long as he's close to neutral about it; but if he wants (really wants) one thing and I want something else, he feels he should get his way no matter how I feel. I mentioned that, and asked him where the cut-off was. He said it was about 75-25.

That isn't POJA. That means I get my way (whether I want it a whole lot or am almost indifferent) if he's almost indifferent, and he gets his way if he has a strong opinion (no matter how strongly I disagree).

But in his mind he's being MAGNANIMOUS (I think I hate that word now) because he ALLOWS me to have MY way sometimes.

POJA is all about OUR WAY, mutual agreements, win-win.

*sigh* I don't know how to navigate through this. But I no longer see any pay-out for me to continue as we have been. (Something I read that LA wrote on another thread helped me realize that. Thanks LA!) Mom leaves today, I'll try to set up an appointment with Steve asap.

Hi Jayne!

I feel you made a very astute observation here!

"For once in my life I was thinking fast on my feet, and realized that means he'll let me have my way as long as he's close to neutral about it; but if he wants (really wants) one thing and I want something else, he feels he should get his way no matter how I feel. I mentioned that, and asked him where the cut-off was. He said it was about 75-25. "

This is SUCH progress! And something you can definitely work with and work from!!!!

Look at this carefully.

1. It reveals your husband's true feelings
2. It gives awareness of "how things are"..which can lead to happy changes
3. It is a real GOOD starting point for a true equal POJA!

I love it!

So, Jayne, I would not see this as a negative. It is what it is! It was always this way under the surface but BEFORE neither one of you were AWARE of it! NOW YOU ARE AWARE!

Oh man, what a good thing this awareness is. Treat it like a gift you were just given. Now, you can accept the status quo....now that you know what it is!. Yet you can strive for better also......

If I were you I would use the "picking up of the children" issues to practice a nice POJA. With Steves help perhaps.

It would be a good issue to "practice communication and POJA skills on" and a good issue to finally SOLVE!!!!!

I want to go on a bit here and say that I see many areas in :twobyfour: which you (Accidently) do not exercise the POJA. You refuse to POJA when you:

1. Leave piles of papers around the house which he hates.
2. Place furniture and jars without even thinking to ask him.
3. CAVE to his desires because you dont know how to POJA them.
4. CAVE to him or what you THINK he wants while becoming resentful.
5. Forcing him to speak with you when he does not want to.
6. Other things you may be doing that I cannot remember now.

Jayne, you are on the road to LEARNING! I see progress and you two will eventually be able to POJA things. I know you two can learn this! And quit the LB's and POJA properly!

You will succeed in this in 2009!!!! You are THAT close!!!!

:happynewyear:

Jayne, I'm certainly no expert on POJA, but your post brought to mind something that I've lived by for a long time. "Whoever it means the most to, wins."

It helps if your mate also feels the same way.

If your husband is not willing to get behind POJA, could you engage him with a debate on merit? "Because that's what I want, I don't need a reason why!" never, NEVER wins this kind of debate. Each party has to explain the logic and the emotions behind their desire. I dunno, but it's hard for me to fight against sentimentality and just plain common sense.

Like with us...we cleaned out the basement the other day. Tossing stuff ruthlessly. I came across a child's rocking chair that was a gift from my uncle when I was, um, four? We had it in the house years ago, but I moved it downstairs because I was afraid that the children would break it. I put it in the keep pile. Hubby disapproved. "Are we ever going to use that?" I couldn't argue for usefulness, but I had a strong sentimental argument, so he relented. I came across a framed Rockwell painting (a fake, lol), and held it up for him. "Keep," he said. "Why? I said. "Because that hung in my house when I was a boy." Yeah, we still have that, too.

Even though he has no use for my chair, and I have no use for his painting, we respect that it means something significant to the other, so we relent.

Stella, thanks for such enthusiastic encouragement! I'm glad you shared with me how to look at it in a positive light, cus I was only seeing the negative. I see what you mean now, though - identifying the problem IS a major step forward!

I've been meaning to go back and find your most recent thread and bump it - how are things going with you, hon?

Hi cwmi,

Yes I agree, I like the philosophy of whoever wants it most, wins. I used to anyway. I can see the flaws in that now, like what do you do if both claim to want their way a whole whole bunch? How do you discern which one really wants it more? Even if both are being honest, how can you look inside both minds and quantify each desire?

The good thing about POJA is that you are supposed to look for the win-win solution. Which is great ... again, like you say, as long as your mate feels the same way.

If that had been us in the garage, I fear that he would've not relented easily if at all on my chair, but would've kept his painting without even letting me know he was doing so.

Hi, *I am OK...my husband is not working. But we will do fine. I am going to start to give him some assignments to do. Actually last week he cleaned the garage and went and got some stuff that we needed from the store. He helps with the dishes if I ask him.

I think whatever I am doing "for work" (I work from home) I should give him half of the task to do. So he gets a feel for it. I should not have to be the only one working.

Yes Jayne you just made a big positive step forward. Keep on going in that direction. Remember not everything is equal in marriage. If you and he learn to be good at compromising you will be fine. POJA goes hand in hand with compromise.

I know you can do it!

I'm glad you are doing ok... it must be tough with your H not working. Especially if you work from home... which means you are right there working and can see him not working. It also *might* mean that he may subconsciously still expect you to do the same amount of housework as when he was working... since you're at home too, ya know. Whereas if you were gone outside the home all day it might be easier for him to look around the house and see something that needs doing... and do it, since you aren't around. I dunno.

I'm just guessing, this may not be right or maybe you don't even feel it should be, but for me when my H was at home and I worked, I wanted him to do more DS than I did. Even though before, I'd been there alone so I'd done all of it while working. But to me it seems reasonable that he would contribute in that way as long as he's there.

It also makes sense to me that he could help out with your work, which helps you be more productive and possibly bring in more money. Or at least reduce your stress and make life more enjoyable! (Worth more than $ anyway!)

Anyway, something really funny I forgot to mention - when I was first reading your post, just as I got to the part that said "leaving papers all over the house", in walks H with a stack of newspapers from the living room for me to sort through prior to recycling! LOL Boy you really called that one!

But I'm working on it, I promise. In fact the reason he brought them to me is cus I had brought up that I was trying to reduce the clutter cus I knew he hates it, and I was suggesting several things to do so. He was just helping me start, I guess!

Hello everyone!
Most of you probably already know I also have a non-working spouse. I have taken a PT job on top of my FT job. I have uncovered a PT opportunity for him also. But he's reluctant to commit. All of our discussions about that is fodder for another thread---I don't want to hijack Jayne's. Suffice to say he was throwing up objection and obstacle one after the other today and I was proud of myself for not losing my temper. I just handled each factually. I avoided a fight, though I feel like I won the battle just to lose the war (will he take the darn job?). LOL

Anyway, I wanted to talk about POJA. Can someone help me out here in explaining to my husband how this works? To him, compromise is a dirty word. It's not that he wants to win at my expense, it's more that he sees compromise as both sides losing something rather than both sides gaining something. We can reach POJA about things such as what to toss, what to keep. But we deadlock on things like his taking a part time job until he finds a FT one, parenting issues, and just about anything else up there on the emotionally charged scale.

IMO, you just say I will not accept this any more. If you were contributing equally to this family, I would have no problem agreeing to your needs and wants. BUT until you are bringing in comparable income to support our family (given each person's education and income ability), I will protect my assets and my children and you can fend for yourself. Let me know when you are ready to contribute equally to the welfare of this family. THEN we will compromise and let you achieve what you want.

JMHO

Hijack away! I get real tired of talking about myself, I'm very happy to host a party here for you!

ETA: I gotta think about your question a bit before I can reply...

BTW, I have an appointment with Steve for 6 a.m. my time Tuesday. That's early enough that the kids won't be awake yet, plus H will still be at home and may decide to join in. I asked him, he said "We'll see" which often means no... we'll see I guess.

Steve had actually wanted to talk to him separately, but H wouldn't agree. I guess this is better than nothing.

Switching topics: I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm practically clueless about boundaries. I think I tend to tell ppl TMI, I think I may be naive and let ppl in, I think I don't even catch it when some ppl make little digs or are manipulative... and I think when I do notice it, I react by being irritable; I think others would be able to maintain a pleasant demeanor while still protecting themselves. Or even counter-attacking with manipulation, P/A, etc.

I bought the Idiot's Guide to the Verbal Art of Self-Defense. I wish I'd had it when my mom was here.

Ok, something about this bothers me and I'm trying to put my finger on it. Let's see if I can figure it out, and tell me what your thoughts are.

Yes, according to MB, compromise IS a bad word, because it means both sides give up a little. IIRC there's an article that explains that. In POJA I think you are supposed to keep brainstorming until you reach a solution that both parties are ENTHUSIASTIC about - not simply willing to give in, but actually like the solution.

Don't ask me how it's possible to always find such a win-win solution, but apparently according to MB, there should be such a solution, you just have to keep brainstorming until you find it.

So when you POJA about what to toss/keep, it sounds like you are willing to let him keep his painting because he lets you keep your chair. To me that sounds like a fair compromise, but if you still despise that painting then it isn't POJA. POJA would mean you've found a solution where you are happy to let him keep his painting (I have to tone it down, "enthusiastic" sounds like such a strong word to me at least). So, I dunno, maybe if he hangs the picture in a room you seldom spend time in, and also if you take pleasure in him being happy about his painting, then maybe that's POJA.

But this part:


This sounds to me like you have taken a stance that only him taking a part time job will satisfy you, while he firmly is opposed to doing that very thing.

POJA would mean to brainstorm, think outside the box, and see if you can come up with something that makes him happy AND you happy - not, convincing him of why your way is the right way.

Is there a valid reason for him to not take a part-time job? Depending on his career and the job, I could see that taking the wrong job now could hurt his future choices, whereas being unemployed now could mean more time for applying for jobs, for networking, perhaps for doing consulting or pro bono work that may position him better to get a job offer in the future? I'm not saying that's how it is, I really don't know since I don't know your H's line of work. I'm just saying that I can see how that might be possible.

If my H had applied for and gotten the job I wanted him to apply for, we'd both be miserable right now. We would both be in jobs we hated, in a place we didn't like. At least for us, his instincts proved true, to continue doing some telecommuting "consulting" in his old job until his network turned up a great fit for him. If he hadn't continued to be so responsible toward his previous place of employment, I doubt he would've been recommended so highly for his current job.

Jayne, good luck in your Tuesday phone call w/ Steve. In my house, H saying "we'll see" or "maybe" usually means "no" or "I will procrastinate until it's too late to do anything anyway". So I sympathize.

Regarding the job situation: the background is that he's had trouble holding a steady job. In the 20 years we've been together, his longest length of employment with a company was 2.5 years. We're in similar lines of work. I quit working FT when we started a family, thinking I'd have time to consult and be at home with the kids. But other than that, I've not been unemployed longer than a few months when one company went under an laid everyone off. I've held jobs for 6 years or more, leaving to go to a better job, being recruited by a client, etc. He's been laid off, fired or lost his job when companies went under, etc. He lost his last big job in 2002 and was not employed full time again until spring of 2007. In between he had a few PT jobs that he either quit because he was embarassed to work there (and screwed up his UI), or was let go. He started his own business--different line of work--and was moderately successful but he didn't like what he was doing so he didn't put forth the effort to really bring in the business necessary to sustain an income level needed to live here. He had a FT job in this same line of work but was let go after about 90 days. He's been unemployed since spring. He's networking, though mostly on the computer, and he's had quite a few telephone and even a few in person interviews but unfortunately, nothing came of them. He's got age, lack of a graduate degree and lack of up-to-date job skills working against him. I've encouraged him to go back to school either at night, when he was working or during the day during one of his unemployed periods but he's always thrown up an objection. He complains constantly about job opportunities jumping into my lap. I just turned down two this past year as they would have required us to move. But I do have updated skills and I do have a graduate degree and I think I've done a better job than he keeping in touch with former colleagues. Maybe that's a male/female thing or maybe I'm just more sociable! LOL

Anyway, I do not make enough $$$ to keep the family afloat. I could support the family if I were to jump back into my line of work but that would require heavy travel and massive hours again and everyone suffered when I did that before. In a perfect world, I suppose he should have been a stay-at-home Dad and I should have been the breadwinner but he always bristled at that and I didn't want to work full time after kids so it made more sense to try it the traditional way. So between my job and his UI, we're just squeaking by. We don't have a safety net, having lost our house the last unemployed go-round. We had to sell it and now we rent (which I hate, but that's also another thread...). Our credit is shot, our savings are gone so even in this down market, it's unlikely we'll be homeowners again anytime soon. My other consulting projects and things I do to bring in extra money give us just a small safety zone. The PT job I took and one he might take would provide an extra $1000/month and that could go a LONG way towards not only just surviving, but starting to pay back bills, maybe save some money, etc. My oldest will be in college next year so that's another expense.

Ok, I did get into way more detail than I intended. However, I wanted to give you an idea of why I'm not sure we can reach any POJA that includs the continuation of him not doing SOMETHING to bring in money.