Thanks Cat, I sorta get the feeling it would be enabling her.

I think that I will tell her that I can't sort anything out and she needs to visit the bank herself.

In this country, the spouse can't get off the loans, once they signed on. Both need to go bankrupt.

Silvagod,

I have been reading along and I must say I get the feeling she is playing you. she wants out, but she doesn't want to be alone. She wants to be "friends" because you are "safe", but if/when someone of interest comes along, your friendship will become very distant.

The Harley's recommend plan A for about 6 months and then reevaluate. I think that is a good idea for you as well. "Friends" don't hurt people with comments as she did you on New Year's eve. "Friends" don't lie and cheat on you. "Friends" don't try to wiggle out of what is rightly their debt.

I do hope you have taken this time to be more active in your children's life. I realize they are young adults, but be active.

Frankly, the "friends" thing is her trying to make this not "so bad". Her affair "not so bad". Her leaving you "not so bad". Further, she KNEW you were under tremendous stress with the business failing and it sounds as if she did nothing but go out and have an affair. She did not talk with you about things did she?

Now hopefully she will wake up, but from what you have said I have my doubts. But, you have a few more months of plan A right?

I believe the quote that you need to consider is the following
Start planning to live your life well. Things to do, focus on what you enjoy, and then really enjoy the gifts you have been given in life. Who knows perhaps she will find a happy you an attractive you.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL, it's nice to hear a version of what is maybe the 'truth'. It hurts me to admit it, but I think you may be right. I do feel 'played'. You are right about the things she said on NYE. I don't know whether or not she really understands my commitment to our M or just doesn't care. Whichever, it still hurts. Maybe she thought I felt the same way as well and didn't really care, so she could talk freely. Our last few talks before I moved back into the MH were about the fact that she was convinced it was OVER and I asked her to confirm that several times and she did. Maybe she thinks I GOT IT and understood and I failed to make my position clear. If that's the case, then she wasn't trying to hurt me on purpose, but was talking from what she perceived as a mutual point of view. Lack of communication on my behalf?...Possibly.

Regarding the business, her only comments during it's failure were, well, you could get up earlier and make more phone calls to get business. I have told her time and time again, the wokr isn't there. It's a bit like throwing good money after bad.

To be honest, I did 'bury my head in the sand' in the latter stages, but that was really the end of a big vicious circle. I have explained this to her, the conversations during the latter stages before the bomb were.....

Me: Are you having an affair?

W: No, I told you before, I am NOT

Me: Then why are you so distant?

W: Well you just seem to be giving up on everything.

In truth, I was, I eventually gave up on my business, my M and basically my life. I was drinking a lot (at home), playing World of Warcraft a LOT and ignoring her. Every time I wanted to play my game, I asked her permission and she said, yeah, np probs. But what I didn't know at the time was that she was texting the OM. This had been going on a lot longer than I thought. I was basically escaping reality.

As you know, real life has a habit of coming back an biting you in the a$$. It's bitten me, big style. She knew full well about the impending bankruptcy, the loss of my business, my car got repo'd. All this time she was having the EA and going out every 2 weeks until 3-4 am. Not very supportive.

If I am realistcally looking at the last 2 years of my M, it has been bad. SF have been non existant, she has changed beyond all recognition and wants to be free and single. I have been accused of being controlling (I admit that I have been, to a large degree earlier in our M but during the latter stages I gave up.) She admits she has changed since completing her training as a nurse and has moved into a seperate circle of friends.

Sorry if I am rambling, it's all coming out at the moment.

Regarding 'wiggling' out of the debt, it was my suggestion that I try to get her out of it. Maybe I didn't clarify that. One of her EN is financial security and her comments on the questionnaire was "We have never been financially stable all our married lives, he earns enought money to keep us, but I DON'T like the way he manages it"


Regarding the Plan A, I have really only been INTO it for 3 weeks now. I mean REALLY into it, trying to avoid LB and meeting her EN without question. Just being as friendly as possible. Man, it hurts when you get hit with the comments I have been hit with though. It's hard to pick yourself up and carry on.

I have been looking after my 2 boys as best as I can. Eldest is living back with me know and has told me to "kick his mum to the curb and GAL". Youngest is much closer to W and keeps telling me that W is more concerned about how I am doing that how SHE is doing.

I don't know which way to turn, I really don't. Do I carry on with Plan A or do I go to a full Plan B and remove myself from the equation and just get on with ME?.

Do you think I should tell her how much the comment hurt me, or is that me being all soft and needy?

End of Rant and Ramble, thanks for listening.

Plan B is for when you feel you are losing your love for your W. Are you sick of looking at her? Does she disgust you? Or are you still thinking of ways to get her to come around? If former, Plan B. If latter, Plan A some more.

Personally, I would suggest plan A'ing for awhile. There are several reasons for this. One is that your W may start to see things differently. I note that she has not filed for divorce, I don't know the processes where you are but if she has not filed, then we are talking "theory" here.

Next plan A and the associated actions are good training for how to be the man and husband I think you want to be either in this marriage or another. I do recommend that you consider being honest with her when she says something that hurts. You could simply say "Ouch" that one hurt and move on. If she wants to know, explain to her YOUR feelings, but not about her. Such as "when I hear **********, I feel like...." do you see what I mean?

This stuff is definitely NOT FOR WIMPS. It is tough stuff but you will learn more than you imagined if you hang in there for awhile. YOu will also see your interactions with other people even your sons changing as you begin to avoid love busters and become more aware of how to interact with people in a way that conveys your message but doesn't hurt them. Further, you have no choice on the next thing. Whether you know it or not, your social/emotional antenna is definitly going to gain in sensitivity.

Keep reading, please read all of Harley's articles and letters on this site and see if you can acquire some of his books. You will be amazed at how your perspective on things will change.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks again, this input is more than appreciated, it's life saving.

I went to sleep last night thinking of what I was going to do today. I was going to go over to see W and "lay it on the line". Tell her how I think she has been behaving; tell her how much she laughs in my face with the comments she makes; tell her that friends don't do the things she has; tell her we ARE a married couple and will remain that way until divorced.

I'll tell you something now, it was actually therapeutic for me to express anger instead of sorrow. I felt like I was being truthful to myself. Weird!

Anyhow, when I woke up this morning, I was back to being Mr.Undecided.

In truth Cat, no she doesn't disgust me, yet. I do like to see her but am sometimes struggling to see the woman I married. I do want her to choose to return to the M but I don't want to force her.

JL, I think I~ will agree with you that Plan A is the best plan to carry on with for now. I just get so fed up of the knots in my stomach and the feelings of sorrow over what we will miss out on. I also worry for her, even my 2 sons have said that she isn't the same and they wonder where there Mum has gone. There has been NO talk of divorce in any way shape or form, I think she is quite happy in her own way that we "are over" but she hasn't thought about taking it to the final step. I will try to get hold of the books, tough though as I can't buy online. I have read all the articles and find them very, very interesting.

Well I have something to add, something that I put out of my mind over the last 3 days.

After reading more of the articles on the site, again, I noticed the LB section. On the details of the home study course page, there is a paragraph that mentions alcohol or drug abuse in the same sentence as infidelity and that is one of THE biggest LB.

AS you may have read above, I buried my head in the sand over my failing business and drank more and more (at home, rarely went out). When my W 1st told me she was leaving and before I knew about the EA, her reason was that she had tried and tried to get me to stop drinking and failed and this was a last resort. She couldn't see me slowly drinking myself to death and had to get away before things got even worse. The day she left, I stopped all alcohol consumption for 2 months.

Move on 2 months to our false recovery. As a POJA we agreed that I could have a glass or 2 of wine. That was fine. My W drinks maybe a glass or 2 most days but can go without if she feels like it. During our false recovery, I was having the same as her, drinking a glass or 2 a day. Twice, whilst she was out, I drunk a whole bottle to myself, no more, but certainly no less. She did comment about me becoming a "wino", but we laughed it off.

Move on to NYE, during our brief chat about my 'slipping', she said "yeah, you got up for work early everyday, yeah you were not getting drunk and maybe it didn't help that I like a glass of wine, but you did slip a little. You were bringing wine home instead of relying on just me to get it" I agreed and said perhaps I had got too comfortable too quickly. She agreed with me.

Now I never gave that much thought during the night (I was being all upbeat and not furthering any R talks) and I haven't thought much about it since then, that is, until I just read the LB page.

If anyone committed a bigger LB than that during a recovery period, I would be surprised. I think I just drained every last little morsel of love out of her love bank for good.

Guys, Gals, am I just looking for something that isn't there and making excuses?. How would you feel in her position?

One thing is, I know now that I cannot touch alcohol at all, the 'odd glass of wine' was obviously too much for her to see me drinking. There were too many bitter memories of my problems and the reasons for her EA. I do believe that she sincerely regrets the EA and that by seeing me act in that way, served as a hurtful reminder of how lost and lonely she had felt.

Could she really be hurting badly now to see me 'fail' again and can't ever see me changing so decided that it HAS to be over between us to save herself from more pain?

I would love your unbiased and experienced opinions about this, please.

I have just had a long phone call with my W. She called to see if I got a card that was being dropped off by friends. (she knew I would have got it, but that was her reason to call).

During the conversation I told her that I felt hurt by her comments on NYE and the said she was sorry I felt that way and the weren't meant to hurt me. She said it's a strange situation and the last thing she would want to do is to hurt me anymore than she already has.

I told her it was OK, but I felt better for releasing my feelings and telling her.

She told me that she was separating 'for both of us' and that is was done for both me and her. She comfirmed that whilst we were trying again, she was unhappy and beginning to resent me being there and that was unfair on me. She understands that I feel I would be happier with her, but it just isn't going to be that way. She needs to be happy and not hate me. She still thinks the world of me and wants to remain friends, talk now and again and even go out for a day now and again. She doesn't want to give me false hope though, because that is ALL it will EVER be, just friends.

Oh the irony in those 2 words: "Just Friends"

We also discussed the money side of things and agreed that if we can both come out of this with a 'fresh start' then it would be the best way to go. So she is going to the bank to remove herself from the joint bank account and I am OK with that.

So I guess I will have to accept it as she sees it and keep battling away.
_________________________

I'm glad you recognize this.

I watched alcohol kill every ounce of love my mother had for my father, not because of his drinking, but what he did or didn't do while he was drinking. And as his child, I can tell you how hard, even to this day to have a conversation with him - he's been sober for 17 years! But I'm nearly 50 and so during those childhood times when he could have been creating a relationship with me, he was drunk and all that goes with it.

My mother cheated on my father. 8 year long affair. Two days after my mother went "no contact" with OM, OM died of a massive heart attack. She felt very unloved. Knows now that cheating wasn't the answer; a Plan B would have been totally appropriate, but Dr. Harley is younger than my mother, so she couldn't have known any other solution.

And another thing - World of Warcraft is a vile game that robs people of their interest in anything else. There's a special place in h*ll for the creators of that game, I believe, because of how many people have lost days and weeks and months and years.

We opened our home to an exchange student this year. He's now back in his homeland, having been kicked out of the exchange program. Between his addiction to the game, and other "internet activities" he never was interested in experiencing what it's like to LIVE in a foreign country, learn the customs, the language, enjoy the lifestyle. He never got to go skiing or snowmobiling. He never got to go hiking or watching the wildlife. He just wanted to be on his laptop speaking with his buddies and girfriend 24/7. What a waste!

His biggest activity (because we cut the internet off) was to play World of Warcraft, instead of interact, go join a school club, or anything else.

Talk about depressing to be around!

So you'll notice the question in my signature line that saved my marriage. You are finally asking that same question after how many pages of posting?

Get after it! No alcohol - not even wine. Get to a gym or at least go for a walk. Healthy foods. Healthy thoughts. And no more World of Warcraft!

Yeah, I have been a little slow haven't I

I did the right things in the beginning and then let them slide during recovery. I may have blown it totally now though (see my previous post before your reply KaylaAndy.

Thanks for telling me your family history, sorta focuses my mind a little hearing it from an outsider's point of view.

Well after reflecting on our earlier telephone call, I decided to call her back, the gist of what I said was...

"I didn’t realise you felt that unhappy when we were together again, thank you for letting me know that, it helps me understand."

"You said I would be happier with you, you were wrong, I am happier when YOU are happier. If you need us to be apart to be happy, then that makes me happier too, sounds a bit silly I know, but I have been reflecting on what you said."

"Let’s not discuss things about ‘us’ again. Let’s just do what makes us both happy and that is to maintain our long lasting friendship."

"I didn't say anything earlier because I didn't want you to get my 'knee jerk' reaction, I wanted you to get how I really feel and that takes time to think about."

She thought that was really nice and thanked me profusley. You know what, I felt better too

We have agreed to meet up on Sunday next week to take our dog for a walk. We had to let the dog go when we separated and W is looking after him for the weekend whilst his new owners are away.
It was my suggestion to do something and W said that she had thought about it, but didn't know how to ask me as she didn't know how I would react.

Well I feel a lot better for our last talk. In fact I have realised that our old M and R is over. In that respect I have moved my wedding ring to my right hand. It now symbolises what was and is no more.

The only way to forge ahead is to build a brand new relationship based on our new selves and starting with the friendship that we still hold dear.

It may sound like I have given up, far from it. I am looking to a new start for both of us, either together or apart. That way, whatever happens, we can become happier than we have ever been.

That's the theory anyway.

No matter what happens from this point, that is the truth.

I didnt think it sounded like you had given up....

Me give up Lild....I Don't think so.

I am from a farming background in the UK and we are ALL born optimists!

No stiff upper lips here either, it's all born from the truth of the matter and we take it on the chin.

Old chinese proverb....

Fall down 7 times, get up 8

Lol, I'm a dairy farmer...in NZ

So yeah, I know that optimism. Mind you there’s a fair bit of pessimism as well...it keeps raining, we have to make lots of hay, there’s a gut on the market, wont get what its worth...

and last year we had a drought and hay couldn’t be got for love or money


I'm going to ahve to read your thread properly. I don't get a heap of time online believe it or not. Three people in line for the computer, plus farming, plus 15 hours UA, plus RC, plus trying to spend time with DD12, but I am finding it hard to figure out whats happening from just the odd glance I have taken over the last couple of weeks.

Well there's a coincidence..I was born and raised on a dairy farm. I learned to milk a cow before I could ride a bike

I wouldn't mind you reading my thread and giving me your input, but I understand the time contraints.

Hay time, that gives me a shudder, I get hay fever (pretty bad for a farmer's son) and was forced to suffer every summer to help get the hay made and into the barn.

Jotting down a few thoughts...

One thing that I keep getting told by W is that she doesn't want to give me 'false hope'. Everytime we talk about doing something together and she agrees, she says that. I wonder why that is. If there WAS no hope, surely she wouldn't need to tell me. I would just know. Odd one that. Maybe she is trying to convince herself?

Also I have just been looking back through my daily diary that I have kept from the day W 1st left. It seems that she is saying almost exactly the same things now (but with a little more conviction) that she said in the beginning. I looked at how I was and reacted, being totally honest with myself, I pressured her way too much, thought about nothing but my own situation and feelings and did everything I could to tell her or make her change her mind. I never really GAL and allowed her to decide. (she did want to try again after her holiday at the end of September and was intially VERY affectionat and loving. That didn't last though and she reverted back to how she was initially but seems more convinced that she will NEVER get 'those' feelings back for me. Again, I looked at our interactions and I was commiting LB's all over the place, forcing R talks, asking for confirmation, telling her how she should approach things. Oh my, thankfully I now realise.

I recommend to everyone that they keep a diary, it really is useful to look back at and see how and what you have been doing and thinking.

Journalling really,

It's the first day back to work and it's nice to have some semblance of reality in my life again.

I am currently going through the anger stage, feeling somewhat bitter towards my W and what she has done to our family.

I have to get through this today and release it as I need to speak to her tonight regarding financial matters.

Breathe, and breathe, and breathe.

Damn, I've not done the anger bit before, it's a hard one to move through. I don't feel bitter deep down, still a lingering sadness, it's the surface where all the anger is coming from.

Hope that I feel better over the next 8 hours before I talk to her. I need to keep the PMA and Upbeat attitude in front of her.