Luna,

As you said, no expectations. The sooner you get it done, the sooner you can get back into a dark Plan B and heal yourself. It is very difficult to get through a D without talking to the person you lived with for so many years. I've made it this far, but there are so many things that could be solved with a few conversations, but I realized that I'm just not up to it yet. I may never be....

Hang in. Keep us posted on the progress....

I just got a legal document from A for me to review.

I suppose it's part of the process....

...to hurt when seeing our names in black and white, mine and WS's, named not as co-signers like when we got married, bought a home, on a mortgage, on boys' birth certificates, on greeting and birthday cards...

...but as WS -vs- BS!

...and having THAT feeling that somehow...SOMETHING isn't right! :crosseyedcrazy:

I felt that too, luna. Like it was WAR.

So very sad.

Fox

I went through that too when I first saw it on the docs. It finally made me realize that this is the end. It's really happening. UGH

Hi Fox and CL,


Yes...very very sad.

Today I need to speak to A re documents.

It feels like going to a dentist.

Really appreciate the services but can't say I am looking forward to it, especially when it's something I don't want and services I can't really afford.

Better get use to it.

I just need to get past, give voice, to all these 'uncomfortable' feelings....that are basically telling me that it's not something I want....and that I GET IT....but it they really want to be helpful....to please STOP 'blocking' me from doing what I need to do to get better!

Something that I need to think about...

...as I find it helpful to put things in writing, doing it here has the added benefit of having some feedback, should you have any to offer.

So, here's the situation...

Plan D in process... not all assets 'separated' yet, one being a modest property outside big city that we have invested in over a number of years, money-wise and heart-wise, to get 'us' out of the city.

I have not visited the place since WS moved out, and given WS's selfishness, he had or would spend time with OP there...turning it into, in essence, a MAJOR trigger for me.

I also know that WS goes there, from time to time, with the boys (only?), and was up there this past weekend with DS13.

To date, I felt my emotional wound made it practically impossible for me to even consider 'putting a foot' on the property....at the same time, I miss going there very much.

An overview of the assets so far leads me to think that neither one of us can buy out the other. Seeing that our intention was to leave it to the 'boys' some day, are WS and I 'open' to finding a formula where that could still happen in the future, or SELL it!

...which is probably why this weekend I found myself proposing to DS13, when he called me from there, that maybe we could consider going up there together at some point. Two days later, I am still OK with that proposition.... am I learning to 'cope' - 'accept' - 'deal' better with WS's waywardness? more like a 'given'?.... or I am LOOSING MY MIND!

Now that I think about it more though...exchanges of the likes of Bugs and Fox and others with their WxS...have SHOWN me that it's possible to DEAL directly with a wayward/muddy waters AND also protect oneself...

...as I see it NOW, I have been forced to face many MAJOR triggers and have survived, I may just need to 'verify' how much of trigger this place really is....as it's about the one thing which, at the same time, I am 'depriving' myself from sharing time with the boys in a very pleasant space...

I need a 'safe and secure' place to count on, away from WS's waywardness, which is my home...could I come to consider our small property in the country as a more 'neutral' space where the boys can spend time 'separately' with WS and myself....(regardless of other visitors?)

For the time being, what do I have to lose by going there for one visit? What's the worse that can happen? It could be more of a trigger than I thought and I would FEEL some.... PAIN? :crosseyedcrazy:

....it could help me 'situate' myself about how I feel and help me proceed in decision-making.

In a few sentences, I communicated this to WS (...I expected it would surprise WS!)

...however, I did NOT find WS's reply...SURPRISING!
Are the tables turning?

(Since my last very long discussion with WS, I seem to have gained some confidence that I CAN set boundaries even with WS (simply by keeping in mind that his TAKER is in charge), while at the same time maintain the focus and purpose of exchange to a 'common goal'...and since then, the door is 'open' for other phone exchanges....at either one's request)

Here's a resumé of WS's reply, which will be helpful to anyone dealing with a WS, because as I see it, it's an example of 'typical' waywardness talk:

-----------------
- I consider it normal that DS13 wants to speak with you when he is with me...and don't want to 'read' anything into it
- I consider it important, as I have always considered it, that the cottage be a way of getting out of the city, a chance to spend time and do activities in a natural setting...and it's the reason I intend to continue doing it without any nostalgic sentiments about the past, neither for me nor for the boys, but I also do intend to go there with my 'new partner'
- that's why I would like to discuss the matter with you this week; are you available either this thursday or friday night?
----------------

Some sure signs of waywardness:

The obvious contradiction at logical level - WS permitted himself to lie, cheat, reject, abandon, expose kids to OP, to name a few.... and yet wants to 'discuss' with BS who he intends to take up to cottage (as if intend guest would come as a total surprise to BS :RollieEyes:)

- the question to ask is more: what's in WS's interest? ..... more likely about finding ways to alleviate GUILT, to LEGITIMIZE affair, seek APPROVAL.... wanting to be able to again look at himself in the mirror?... probably difficult to do lately when inner values of GIVER have been compromised....a sense of responsibility, honesty, fairness, satisfaction of having taken others' feelings into account... will WS realize that it has little to do with others' acceptance of what he does, and more to do with what he DOES, period?

Before, not wanting to talk to WS was more about fearing and avoiding PAIN... NOW I see it more....as a person stuck in SELFISHNESS... as an opportunity which forces me to STAND UP for myself, SAY what I THINK and FEEL, be VIGILANT, IDENTIFY and COMMUNICATE boundaries... more of a LEARNING process....FOR ME!

...in turn, it changes whole 'attitude' of how I approach WS and talk to WS!

- no, he is not welcome to come and sit and have a coffee at my table
- no, I will not sit with him at boys' events (and act like buddies!)
- yes, I am willing to work side-by-side to empty out basement
- yes, I am willing to talk to him by phone, 'hear' what he wants to say, WITHOUT my having to agree with what he says
...etc...

... before I didn't think it would ever be possible for me to exchange with WS...now I am more optomestic! ...my question is: can it be done without compromising my values?

and...sorry for the long post!

Update.

This past week DS13 had a school event at night which I attended. It's a very BIG school but as I got in the door guess who was standing....right there!

Yep....WS and OP! I just went along my business. Had a book to read and just found myself a seat and went on with my reading. Compared to previous other occasions when this has happened, the triggering has subsided ENORMOUSLY.

This past Sunday had another long conversation with WS in attempts to try to move things along in separation of assets...it went well, considering I am dealing with a wayward mind.

WS still needed to again express how frustrating he found it when picking up DS13 that I don't come to the door and don't even say 'hello' to him, and why can't we be more 'adult' about it? ...and yet I offer to help to empty out basement? I just said that I could see how he found it frustrating...but did not committ to do otherwise. (...because I see a BIG difference between the two....for one thing, I have a DEFINITE interest in empting out the basement!)

...anyways, I did tell WS that I was willing to discuss his frustrations, etc. if he was also willing to give me his attention and also listen to what I had to say without commenting/judging!

WS obviously had to mention how stressful event at school had been for DS13 (he was at WS's) knowing that WS and OP would be attending event and so was I. Hummmm... and how it was important that we find a way to 'smooth' things over so as not to create such unnecessary stress for boys and particularly DS13 (...which if translated means....can't we ACT as friends so I won't feel so guilty about this?)

He did mention that he would like to buy me out for our small cottage out of the city...but it's still not clear if in the asset division that he will have the means to do that. In the meantime, I haven't set foot in the place in practically 4 years and I miss it. I obviously know that WS has been going up there with OP (and actually got him to admit it), but I would be curious to see how I would feel about any triggering happening there... might it be OK if I created some of my OWN history with the boys there, and be oblious to what WS does? Still debating it.

It feels really 'weird' exchanging with WS directly, but it is more productive than only dealing through attorneys. My attorney has warned me though...that I should NOT consent or sign anything without passing it by him first.

Will be going away for a few days this week (which will be a good break). I expect to set a time for another exchange with WS once I am back.

I can't help but wonder how OP feels about my increased contact with WS. At the school event it felt really weird...like, we had reversed roles somehow :crosseyedcrazy: ...but I can't say I really really envy her. I already find preparing and recovering from just one exchange a week with WS very draining.

Luna,

You are doing great! Being able to interact at ALL with the WS is not easy at any point, but you really seem to have turned a corner on this!

As for your WS wanting you to come to the door, or his 'frustration' with the school function being uncomfortable,,,, WHO CARES?

Your discussions with WS need only be about FACTUAL things. It's this kind of talk that leads to emotional turmoil and triggers for you. It is my suggestion that you avoid further talk like this and stick to the fact. Now,,,if you are ok with this kind of disucssion & you think it helps your negotiations, then by all means, carry on.

I am concerned that you will get triggered,,,or worse, that WS is drawing you back in a bit by sharing his 'feelings'. Your comment/question wondering how OP feels about your interactions with WS lead me to utter this bit of caution.

My response to Drac when he tried this kind of thing about being 'adult' was that I am, in fact, being very adult about things. If not seeing or talking to him helps ME feel comfortable then I can't think of anything that would be MORE adult than that. It certainly beats the heck out of telling him each time I saw him what a POS I thought he was!

I don't know what to tell you about the cottage. If you want/can go there and make different memories then by all means, do it. *I* for one could not do it. I knew that should Drac & I ever have gotten back together that I would have never gotten into our boat ever again. Not after the Ho had been on it with MY family. Heck, even if I had been awarded the boat in the divorce, I would have never gotten into it again. That's just me.

Again, you are doing great!

Hi Bugs,

Thanks for your thoughts.


I agree with you. I need to be careful. When you say 'drawing you back', do you mean 'get me to do what he wants?'.

I expect the fact I am asking for 'equal time', should he insist on talking about how he 'feels', I will say so if I am not comfortable, or take it as an opportunity to speak my 'truth'...which I have found helpful at some level just being able to communicate it....inspite of the fact the 'reception' level could be very low. :RollieEyes:

Luna,



I agree with Bugs. I could not go to the cottage. Ever. I say let him buy you out, you take the money to do something else that will be special for you and the boys.

Luna, the only thing that I want to say to you is do whatever you have to do to get this OVER. Do I think this A will end? YES. Do I think it is going to happen soon? NO. I'm not trying to be mean or to upset you, but I'm worried for you Luna. I think you need to let go of this and take a different direction for your life. I know that you don't want a D. I don't either, but honestly, neither one of us can keep pining for something that may never be there again. Maybe it's just my mood today. Check with me tomorrow and I may tell you something different.

I hate being a BS.

Anyway, just have your best interest in mind. I want to see you blossom girlfriend. Just like Bugs, SL, Fox, Rin, Cinders to name a few.

Hi CL,

Thanks for your input.

Been out of town for a few days. It was a good break. Will check up on how you are doing, and others.



For the longest time, that's how I felt. I am curious as to why I see that 'differently' now.


I also feel less and less of a BS somehow.

It feels like there is a shift in my 'perception'. I don't SEE things as I used to, but I am not sure WHY or how it happened. Don't know whether it's good or bad.

I am giving it a bit of time to see whether or not this is temporary. :crosseyedcrazy:

Luna,

Hi Luna, I remember long ago when you first started posting...things have changed a lot for you since then. You sound sooooo much better and I am glad for you.

What do your boys tell you about your Plan B? How do they feel about your not talking to BS when he drops them off?

A totally off the wall question: do you think you may ever start dating?

My parents are divorced, and especially in the beginning, whenever there was a big occasion/function (graduation, wedding, etc.), I was pleased to have them both there and wanted them to be cordial. But I also requested that OM was not present at my events. And he never was. I know that you cannot impose that decision on your kids, but do they feel they even have the right to ask?

Just a thought.

Hi Ahuman,


It's been a long road...I have my moments and my challenges... but it's been a long time since I have felt the sense of despair as when I first came to the Board.... and to this day, part of my 'protection plan' is not to READ yet my first thread...


Its been over a year now that only DS13 is being 'picked up and dropped off' as DS18 has chosen to stay with me fulltime. Of course the boys would prefer that WS and I be on 'talking terms' (and more!), but I don't think they mind as much as WS does.

So far I have accepted to have 'discussions' over the phone with WS to facilitate separation of assets. What WS really wants is for us to 'cooperate' the way we used to and be 'friends'... and as long as he continues to 'justify' his selfish behaviour/choices as he is, I think it's better that I keep my distance.

In the couple of conversations I have had with him, WS does sound he is less in lalaland...realizing MORE his losses...and the mess he has made... with guilty feelings easily surfacing... and I think, long-term, he certainly has 'set himself up' for regrets...

At this point, though, I can't really help him... I still feel the need to protect myself from someone I perceive has very little regard for my feelings....


Once Plan D is finalized, I am not saying no.... however, inspite of the moments of loneliness, lack of support, and other needs that only an intimate R could satisfy... by being on my own, I have learned a lot, and it's not as bad as I thought it would be.


Well...we do attend common 'functions'...I just make sure to keep a distance so I don't have to be 'anything' with WS. I do think given the circumstances, WS is asking for a lot! I try to be honest with my boys... and when I can tell they wish things could be different, I do acknowledge it... and in fact, I can even agree with them... but I won't FORCE myself to be 'friendly' with WS, especially if he is accompanied by OP!

How are you doing, Ahuman?

Update.

An examination with doc. resulted in need for intervention at hospital...supposedly in and out in one day....unless of course something 'turns up' during operation.

Coping as best as I can....trying not to worry too much and not think of worse scenario.

Been busy at work. Away last week for a few days...and this week had to manage relocation of our office. Glad it's over.

Taking a breather this weekend. Will try and catch up on some of the threads to see how some of you are all doing.

Prayers for your health & wellbeing.
I could use some as well.
I have (yet another) colonoscopy Tuesday. I lost count how many I've had (denial is a wonderful thing). I think I'll move the TV into the bathroom Monday night (sick joke).
There better be some good drugs involved Tuesday, or I'll kick some butts (yeah, right, I'm such a tuff 59 year old the MD is scared :RollieEyes: and I think it is actually MY BUTT that's gonna get kicked !!!! ).

are you yet? This is supposed to make you laugh

Luna:
I know your D is progressing and you are still in Plan B.

Any advice for me as I do the same? My WH has only been gone 6 weeks, but the A has been going on for a year and a half and now WH has outright chosen OW and started the D.

We've had 5 false recoveries over the past year, but if I'm honest with myself, I think the returns resulted from OW putting pressure on WH to file and him not wanting to. Now he's filed and says he wants closure (from me) so I expect him to stick it out with her through the D and beyond.

Has your WH always remained in contact with your kids? Mine has not seen them for the 6 weeks. Perhaps he wants to stay away so there is no chance they will change his mind about coming back home. He's also a conflict avoider. Perhaps he was looking for an Exit affair so he could avoid having to terminate our marriage without a reason. OW now being the reason.

Given what you know now, would you have done anything different?

Hi Pep,



OK, Pep? :RollieEyes:


Good luck on Tuesday, Pep. I have had just 'one' of those...no ifs or buts, I opted to have 'seditives'...didn't feel a thing!

Denial? ...I can't seem to remember why I joined this Board

When is it recommended that you get a colonoscopy? I mean, at what age, or is it not one of those 'start at age ____' things?

I'm on the fence, I'd want to have sedatives but at the same time I'd want to see the video because I'm curious how the body works.

Please let it be 21 years til I have to have one :sick"

Hi HH,


See my reply to your post on your thread.

Hi Karmarose,


Maybe you can get the doc to give you a cassette!
...with commentary!