qwertyuiop,
Looks like there is a lot going on in your last post. I can at least respond to the Plan B questions when there are young children and my experience with an intermediary.
Re: IM's. I used our sitter since she was having contact with us both. She made a valiant effort for two weeks and even read some on MB, but having been divorced, she put her own issues into it and it was devatating for me to have her interject advice, let alone forward info I did not need.
Find someone who either has familiarity with MB, has done their own "work," or has a legal frame of mind. It will likely be someone sensitive to your needs since you are seeking them out, but that doesn't mean they can't be impartial.
Re: kids, my two youngest see him during visitation that we had set up previously. My oldest will talk with him, but doesn't want to hang out with him. I tell my kids that their dad has hurt me terribly and that I cannot be around him right now. They know he had an affair and they know that he has lied, so they are disapointed in him, but they still want to have some relationship with him.
Plan B has helped me tremendously, and I am less up and down, but although I have some hope that will recovery, the longer I am in B, the less I feel I need that to recover.
I don't know if that helps, but that has been my experience.
BF439

Q,

You've plan A'd long enough when you're out of steam. Just about completely out of love.

You've done everything you can from a distance. You've done your exposure to everyone who could help. You've been pleasant and kind, as much as you've been able. Unless you see yourself developing another second wind in the very near future, I'd say Plan B. But nobody but you can make that decision.

I don't think it's wise to do it if your main reason is to try to manipulate him into making the Christmas trip. I know how important it is to you, but you can't really make him do anything, certainly not something he doesn't want to do, right now anyway. I don't know how many BS have had their WH's do an about face in a week or two, but many have to wait much longer. The only hope for seeing him at Christmas time is you going to him, but you are likely to be rebuffed if you do. (I went to visit my WH while the A was in full swing and got the worst of him during that time. In fact, he banished me after 3 weeks of my best Plan A. It was horrible. Active waywards are NOT reachable!)

Plan B isn't to make him do anything. It's to protect you from him and his continued thoughtlessness. It's to protect what love you have left for him should he decide to come back to you, or to get YOU OK with the good life you build for yourself in case he never does. The memory of how you behaved before Plan B will help draw him back, once the A goes south.

Only you know how much more you can take before YOU want a divorce and are beyond turning back. Plan A should end before you reach that point. It's a fairly serious decision and I don't want to influence you. I only mention it because you are sounding so close to throwing in the towel. Whether it's a temporary low for you or not, no one can say. Maybe not even you right now. Once you've done it, though, you've gotta stick to it. Until the A ends.

Could you see yourself doing that?

We can get to your other questions later. Once you've addressed the ones I've raised with you.

(((Q)))

Right Here Waiting

Q,

Where are you? HOW are you? It's been a week since you've posted.

Are you all right?

Right Here Waiting

Hi RHW and all,

Thanks RHW for asking about me and sorry to have been missing in action.

I have been very busy. I also do not have the best internet connection and this site tends to be extremely slow at times and at times completely un-open to me with the connection I have.

I have come to some interesting conclusions and had some pretty heavy breakthroughs the last week or two.

I can't get into everything now - but I am feeling sort of good about being single and feeling like I can live without WH and feeling like the idea of WH coming back into my life is NOT what I want. It has even begun to cross my mind that dating again will be kind of fun. That is not to say I have any interest at all in doing so at the moment - but it seems almost like something to look forward to.

I was in surf camp all week which did wonders for my self esteem. It's a motivating experience and we had a group of amazing, amazing people. The day before surf camp began (exactly one week ago) I spoke with WH and a lot came out that I have to say I have kept inside myself as a secret for a couple of years.

I realize now that I have not loved WH for a couple of years - or at least that at a certain point a couple of years ago I realized I did not love him (possibly the love has come and gone over and over since then, I cannot say) - I think this happened mainly because he did not want me to be pregnant with our 3rd child. Around that time he stopped fathering the boys (the way he had in the past at least) and he pushed me to end the pregnancy. I doubt he would admit that he pushed me to end it but let it suffice to say that had I agreed to do so, he would have been driving me to the doctor's office in a heartbeat to do it. For me this was unthinkable. He was unhappy, I was happy (about the pregnancy). He has continued to say how easy life would be if only we had just two kids and not three. He even says this in front of the kids. I do not know if it was the pregnancy or other things or a combination but around that time things got bad. I kept it to myself that I did not want to be with him, was not attracted to him and so forth. Until now I never admitted this to anyone, but it was all very clear inside my head. I thought things would get better. I thought we could make it work. I was scared to voice this to him and did not dare do it. But what I probably also did is resent him. I did not do it on purpose, but I showed him my resentment, I tried to control him, I was not attracted to him, and he could feel this in the way I behaved and the way I spoke to him.

And of course, from there, things spiraled out of control. My resentment and coldness - even if subtle (I myself did not know I was doing this but now I am sure I was), were there. He began to react coldly, with anger, with his own resentment. And here we find ourselves today.

And although I think our problems could be solved with some very good marriage counseling and a lot of work on both of our parts, I do not think that my WH has it in him to do this. I have learned to live with this angry man. I have learned to accept that we do not celebrate my birthday because he doesn't want to. Nor the kid's birthdays. If he has to work, we can 'always celebrate another day' and so forth. It has always been this way, since day one with him. I deserve so much more than this. I never thought marriages could just be thrown in the trash like this. My own parents are married, so are WH's. (his dad did cheat on his mom though). My brother is married, his sister is married both over 10 years, both on their first marriages. Divorce is not something that I thought would happen to me and until last week I was quite convinced I wanted to really work on the marriage. But now I am more and more convinced it is over.

It has been less than 3 months since d-day and I am ready to move on. I wonder what that says about me and my feelings for WH in the first place. Or maybe it is just the moment.

Financially I am in big trouble. No career for the last 8 years. WH already wavering on giving me money. He has actually told me to call up my parents and ask them for money. When I heard that I nearly cried out of helplessness. He totally controls our finances and my parents simply do not have the money to support me and 3 kids. I have been advised to remain on extremely good terms with him in order to get full custody. I have also been advised that OW will NOT want any type of custody of my three kids and for this reason keeping it very, very civil with WH will help to not spark any type of custody battles.

Anyway, this was a LOT of info, not so sure all of it coherent.

Would love input.

Thanks
Q

just bumping this up looking for some input.
thanks
q

Hello Q,

Been out of town for a few days, and I see you're in this new place. I don't think it's unusual at all. Most of us BS's were not exactly getting OUR EN's met in the years leading up to our partners' affairs. I'ts crushing to have your husband want to abort the child you're carrying. Happened to me 38 years ago, so I know that pain. (Like you, I declined, and never had a moment's regret over it.)

I also understand the pain of not wanting to be the "family failure" at marriage. The personal and public humiliation--on top of betrayal! All so hard to bear. Until you realize it's YOUR life you have to think about, now that your H has made his move. The decision really always has been, what do YOU want? You probably don't know yourself yet. Keep thinking.

I does sound like you're out of love, re-examining the life you had pre-A, and finding it wanting. Only you can determine if there is any possible future happiness to be found with the man who fathered your children, and who you once loved.. No one on these boards should presume to say, and I certainly won't.

You've Plan A'd your best under the circumstances. Think it over a little longer and decide whether it's Plan B or Plan D you want now. You'll have to decide what you'll do if/when Plan B brings him home. Or if Plan D does. No telling what he'll do, but you can decide what YOU'LL do. You need to think of financial support for yourself and the kids while you're rebuilding your life, no matter what HE decides to do. International law may be complicated here, so get the best advice you can.

And if you decide to let him go, be gentle with yourself if you want to reconsider again, if Plan B or Plan D inspires him to rethink HIS position. I'll only say that if he wants to come back, you'll have to be clear on the conditions of his return. He will have to make big changes too. It can happen, but that would be up to him.

Just protect yourself legally. You and your kids deserve that much, no matter what happens in the end.

Sending more prayers and hopes for clarity for you.

Right Here Waiting

I agree. And as for money, be creative. Use the Internet to find jobs; yours is a unique profession, should be able to network some income. Be true to yourself for the rest.

RHW,
You are amazing. Thank you!
I am trying to write a plan B letter right now but also working on finding a bi-lingual mediator. I have asked a friend but am not sure she wants to do it. Once I have that taken care of I will send the plan B letter. I do not know if I want B or D but we will start with B and see what comes of it.
I do not know how to protect myself legally. I have asked the advice of a lawyer in Europe but the info she gave me is a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo written in a language that I speak fluently but I do not speak legal mumbo jumbo in this language. So I really need to sort though it and try to understand what to do. It is extremely complicated.
xx
Q

Hi Q.

Could you call the local embassy of the country your H is in? Perhaps they could help you get a translation of the legal paperwork. Should be fairly easy to find out the legalities of the country you're in.

Would you want to say in the Caribbean, or go "home" to the US to be near your family? Is that even possible? You seem kind of stranded where you are.

RHW

Hi RHW,
I need your help!
I sent a plan B letter which was done too hastily and I wasn't ready. Then I proceeded to call him and practically beg him to stop seeing OW.
I am a huge emotional wreck.
The one small bit of progress that happened is that he agreed to go to IC with MY psych and made an appointment for this friday. (We do the appointments on Skype because the psych is in the States). I know you are going to say that IC doesn't do any good if WH is still with OW, but it does seem like progress none-the-less.
Also WH has a plane ticket to come here on Jan 31st. So I am reluctant to go to Plan B for that reason. I am also reluctant because I do want to know how it goes with the psych.
Question... should I continue to plan A despite having already sent the plan B letter and screwing that up royally?
I am really going through a horrible, terrible time right now. Very weepy, very sad and having a hard time keeping it together for the kids.
And yes, I am a bit stranded - but do not feel it is an easy time to go anywhere right now. I have the possibility of returning to our apartment in Europe in April. (would get a manager for the apartments here).
Give me some of your wisdom - I really need it right now.
xx

Aw, Q, you've been so strong for so long. It's OK to have a set-back. Besides, what's done is done. The question is, what's next?

I agree that if your WH is voluntarily planning to visit next month, there's no point in going to Plan B. His agreeing to talk to your psych is not bad, of course, but don't make too much of it yet.

You have no way of knowing WHY he is planning to come see you--do NOT let down your guard. Be prepared for anything. If he's extending an olive branch, you'll know what to do. More Plan A behavior and maybe some calm, controlled R talk. Maybe even brainstorming a way to actually BE together every day!

But if he's still actively wayward and fully fogged, he might say and do some more very hurtful things. Have a plan and a place to run if it goes that way.

Looks like you're getting your Christmas visit with him after all, just a little late. Be the BEST WIFE you've been learning how to be. SHOW him your changes, your softening. It's all you can do. Afterward, you are still free to reject reconciling, based on your assessment of the situation. You want this to be YOUR choice, not just HIS.

Praying for you.

RHW

OK - it is going to be really hard for me to do this.
I really had my mind set on going to plan B and was beginning to not want him at all. I need to get my head back around plan A and it is going to take some serious work on my part. It is also complicated because my psych is in his own way pushing me to plan B.
I don't know what happened to me - I was really getting strong. I got the flu over Christmas and think that the illness combined with the holidays started working mind games on me. I do not feel strong enough to do this right now.
Stay with me RHW. I need you!

Ya know, Q, there's no rule that says you HAVE to continue Plan A. If you're done, you're done. Should make it easier to deal with hubby when he visits, if you're not sweating the outcome, no? A reasonable sorting out of finances, child visitation, etc.

You obviously can't Plan B him while he's in your home, but you don't have to over-extend yourself, either. Who knows? Maybe pleasant and "neutral" is the way to go. MUCH better than crying, or pleading or threatening, isn't it? Which could have happened had he arrived at Christmas.

I'm a firm believer in the hand of God, and I think I may be seeing it here. What if, what if your willingness to let go is the very thing your WH needs to wake up? What if he were to decide that OW is NOT what he wants, and was willing to work like YOU'VE been working to repair things? Only a possibility, but stranger things have happened.

If your love bank is empty, look at it this way: This is HIS last chance to try to win YOU over! If he doesn't, you're already in a place where you can see it as his loss. He might already know this, since you sent that Plan B letter.

What, exactly, did you say in it? I'm wondering if he made plans to fly to you BECAUSE of it...

Fill me in here.

RHW

No RHW,
When he didn't come in December he had to change the plane ticket or he would lose it - so he changed it from December to January. He did not change it based on my plan B letter, but rather quite a while before then when I was still in plan A.
At the moment of the plan B letter he had been trying and trying to contact me and I was so angry with him that I couldn't talk. Then I sent the letter and proceeded to doubt myself so much that I called him and have been on the phone with him a lot since then.
It always blows up. I say something nice and he tells me how horrible I am, how terrible our marriage has been for the last two years, etc. I know it is all fog babble but it is still very hard for me to take.
For example, the other day I said, "I wish we could start over" - harmless enough statement I think. His response was a full blown screaming fit about how selfish I am. Then of course I say to him that I know this is not my H talking, but rather my WH and that my H wouldn't talk like that. I know, I know - probably too much info for him but I am at a loss here.
Am I just supposed to tell him the kids are great, I'm great, etc?
I asked him today if he will go out with OW for new year. I told him that it hurts so bad to know he will be with her and so he promised me he won't see her. Then I called him back and told him that if he feels like not seeing her for me is going to make him want to see her more, then to just go. He was really happy I called and said that no, he will not see her and that this type of understanding is what he wants from me.
I asked him if he would call me at midnight (which for me is only 7pm) and he said he would.
So there we are...
too much talk about OW, too much talk about us...
I do believe I want to stay in plan A through his visit. he has the psych appt Friday.
He also says that he is not going 'further' with OW because he wants to figure out first what the right thing to do is - and I do want to believe him. He says he needs time...
that's the story for now... jumbled I know.
xx

Still foggy, but maybe not as much as before. I remember my FWH telling me, not long after he came back but certainly wasn't "in love" with me, that he'd done it "because it was the right thing to do."

Boy, did he get Plan A action out of me then!

Maybe all your WH does need is time, like he said. With luck, OW is getting pushy, demanding and neurotic. Wouldn't that be nice?

Hmmm...
A ray of hope after so much feeling down.
My New Years resolutions this year will be simply to stay focused on my plan... I just want to plan A it through his visit. I guess he will be staying with us after all.

I sent WH a really nice e-mail wishing him happy new year. I am going to share it with you...
Maybe too much talk of OW in it but I am doing my best. I will let you know how he reacts...
What do you think?

By the way Happy New Year RHW. You continue to amaze me. Thanks again for all you are doing for me.

Dear WH,

I saw this quote and wanted to share it with you.

The deeper the sorrow that carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.

It is something that I read a long time ago when I first found out about OW2 and OW1 and it has helped me get through these very hard times.

Sometimes I think that you and I just went from day to day and hour to hour without really thinking about or making time for 'us'. Too busy with the day-to-day business of living and not enough with the much more important business of loving. There was no sorrow - there was no joy - it was all too easy. Love is not easy - something was seriously wrong. I am so, so sorry for this and I promise you I will do what I can to change and to give you all the love that you deserve - if you will let me try.

I want to thank you for the efforts I see you are making right now. You are going to go see Dr. T and you have told me you will not see OW tonight because you understand how that makes me feel. You also promised me that you will not bring OW into our apartment in the city, and I am grateful. I would never be able to go back there knowing she has been there with you and I am really glad that you understand that. I also want to thank you for all the hard work you do for our family. You have made huge sacrifices so that we have everything we need. I am so proud of your work and how you have managed to create for yourself this amazing product where you are the only one in the world who does what you do. I have always been so proud. I don't think you even understand how amazing I think you are. Maybe I need to tell you more often. Actually I'm sure I need to tell you more often.

Here is to 2009. Let it be a year filled with joy and let us rediscover the joy we once felt for one another.

I love you.

Q

Gotta admit, Q, that I have absolutely no idea how he will react to this. It all depends, of course, on where HE really is in his head. And it's possible that not even HE knows that at the moment!

But you WILL be getting some time together in a month. I sincerely hope he will bring his best self to the party.

Let us know his response to your love letter.

RHW

Well,
I am really wavering... really bad.
Am thinking should be in plan B but only becuase it seems to be more of a 'plan' and less of just sitting around waiting for him to make a decision. I do not like outside factors to come in - like him seeing my psych or him coming to visit me. It just means more of me waiting around for HIM to decide what HE wants.
BUT - at the same time - I need to keep in mind that plan A is really a plan. I need to seriously follow the plan and then switch to plan B after his visit.
I do not know how to stay focused. I ask him all the time about OW. I am acting needy. I need to snap out of it. This is my future, not a game.
At the same time I am wavering as to whether I even want the S. o. B....
He is not Mr. Wonderful and never will be... I know I deserve better. But my kids deserve a shot at having their parents togehter...
I have to run
more later
Q

Yes, snap out of it. You know what will be the thing that makes him want to come back to you the most? It's if you start living your life for YOU, improving YOURSELF and creating a full life, one that he will want to JOIN. Right now, you are all about having to have him in your life, and he KNOWS it.

What can you do for yourself? Take classes, join a club, make new friends, start a hobby, ramp up your exercising! Make yourself attractive in a million ways.

Thank you Catperson.
good sound advice and what I need right now.
I feel myself coming around now. I think it was the holidays combined with the flu and pms. Partly not being able to exercise due to the flu then another week because the babysitter was off... and just general depression caused by the holidays.
A few little positive things in my life not related to WH lately and I'm already in better spirits.
But WH and I have been in deep conversation these last days about our relationship... I need to find a way to make that stop. It is nothing particularly bad, just talk in circles because he won't leave her - but luckily no lovebusters either.
Trying to refocus on plan A...
please keep me sane and on track! I take all advice happily!
xx