Mike and I talked a lot about financial stuff. And, we started to practice it, in small ways, before we got married. We obviously hadn't combined our monies, but we discussed how we were spending a lot of it, including major purchases. Mike knew what debt I was carrying, and when I received a large gift, he helped me invest what was left after paying off debts.

Mike was very used to planning his own trips from start to finish. I finally told him that if I were "just along for the ride" this way was fine, but if we were a couple, a team, I wanted to be in on the decision-making process. Mike worked really hard to include me in all of it.

There were a couple of other instances, where I needed Mike to make an adjustment in order for us to have a relationship. They were minor adjustments, and he made them.

That said, we each had our dealbreakers, and each of us was willing to walk away from the relationship if we hit one. I think that willingness is an essential component in a healthy relationship.

Ha. I was ready to call the wedding off 6 weeks before hand. I'm glad I didn't.

There's a lot to respond to here, but it seems to be coming down to a central point:

[Agreeing to an eventual marriage is a de facto engagement, and we should spend more time dating and observing one another before discussing such an arrangement.]

This seems to be a consensus from some posters.

I do not agree.

We are engaged after a formal proposal and she has a ring, not before. This is something that Jill and I both agree on. Our discussion signifies an intent for an eventual marital union, however that union is conditional and predicated upon several factors. While I said before that the timeframe I have laid out is somewhat arbitrary, it's also an estimation of how much time we will need to get our respective houses in order. I believe that it's important to set some sort of timeline - even a vague one. We are both goal oriented people. And while marriage might be one goal, doing the things we feel are necessary prior to that are goals as well. She and I both believe in taking a stepped approach.

I understand that is not everyone else's approach and I appreciate everyone's concern. I also notice a thread of deep reticence or even paralyzing fear among some folks at MB because of their own past experiences. I'm not saying that's the case with any posters in this thread. I honestly don't know any of you well enough to make that kind of judgment. Especially not over a few posts on an internet forum. I'm frankly puzzled how quickly some are at making characterizations about other people based on such limited information. It is both amusing and sad for me when someone I wouldn't recognize on the street if we bumped into one another chooses to tell me all about myself.

In any case, while I don't want to seem rude, this discussion has gone off on a tangent that I'm not very enthusiastic to pursue. My desire was for help in finding the most efficient way to resolve some specific issues that she and I have both already identified. I was most definitely NOT seeking MB's blessing on the overall choice to discuss marriage with my GF. While personal experience is important, it can have a counter-effect when others' personal fears and prejudices are projected onto situations that aren't the same. All information here is, and should be, taken with a grain of salt...

Seabird, back to the subject of finances. Is your potential financee willing to view your combined incomes as "our" money? Or it "your" money and "her" money? Joint vs. separate banking accounts have little bearing on this perception. If she takes the latter view, you might be in for a rocky ride.

My wife and I agreed on a financial plan before we married, and we still use it after almost 14 years of marriage. We've never had a joint bank account. All combined income has always been considered "ours", even though my salary has always exceeded hers by at least 30%. All of her paycheck goes into a savings account. I pay the bills with my paycheck, which includes a weekly "allowance" for each of us. The allowance money is spent as we please, or saved to make a purchase that exceeds the weekly amount (both of us have saved this money for months to make a "large" purchase for ourselves). Any money left over after bills and allowance goes into savings (which isn't a lot now, as she is a SAHM). Funds for annual or semiannual payments for car insurance, life insurance, etc, are treated like a monthly bill and go into savings to be withdrawn at the proper time. Any other purchases must be discussed and agreed upon. This would include furniture, computers, clothes, lawn mowers, tools, etc. This is similar to the Dave Ramsey plan but we use credit cards to purchase groceries, gas, etc, instead of the cash system that he advocates. We both like to spend money and have hobbies that can be expensive, and I'm convinced that following this plan (ie, sticking to a budget) has spared us from major fights and financial turmoil. You certainly don't have to do what we are doing. The important thing is to have a plan that both of you are willing to follow.

I wouldn't be too concerned with the partnership debt unless it legally obligates you in some way (I'm not knowledgeable in that area, so I have no idea). As for her revolving debt, I would ask to see her plan for paying this off before the wedding and see if she can stick to it. If she can't, she lacks financial discipline and will have a tough time sticking to the budget after you're married.

There's another financial issue that you need to think about that involves your existing children. I assume you will bring a certain amount of equity into the marriage. Do you think your children are entitled to any of that if you die 5 years from now? 30 years from now? How would assets be divided with your existing children if she has children with you?

I applaud you for discussing finances BEFORE you get married, instead of trying to clean up a big mess later on. I would also discuss her role in discipline with your children, which also leads to problems if you don't have an agreement in place.

I would go one step further. To me, the very fact that she has revolving debt (which I interpret to mean credit card debt) already demonstrates that she lacks financial discipline. This may be perfectly fine if she marries someone with the same outlook, but I do see a problem when someone like her is matched with someone who appears to be debt averse. Paying off the debt before the wedding would address the symptom, but not the underlying issue.

Again, I have no insight into what caused the credit debt to accrue, and how much we are talking about, but if I (being fiscally conservative/responsible) met someone who was in debt due to frivolous spending habits, I'd run the other way. In fact, I did just that a few years ago, when I met someone who lived beyond her means.

AGG

xring - The "my money/your money" perspective is a good point to bring up. I haven't asked her that specifically yet, though I think that I've communicated my POV effectively; that in my previous M, I viewed it as her money and my money, but certain things like the kids and the household expenses as "our debt". Anything left over was our's to do as we pleased with individually. Now I think that viewpoint was a mistake. I will definitely ask her about it and add it to the list of things we need to reach consensus on.

W/re to her revolving debt issue... I will clarify it with her, but when we've talked about it in the past, she agrees that too many people view their credit limit as additional income. I do not think that she carries her CC debt continuously or views her bills as just another monthly expense to pay on like her house or car. I believe that she uses credit specifically for very large expenses. She does understand the difference (and importance) of addressing the principal balance as opposed to just the interest (as so many others do).

And as of yesterday, her CC debt is now paid off.

She has also offered to exchange credit reports. I consider myself a financial worry-wart AGG, but with her, I feel pretty safe. If she had a history of collections, or spending issues, I'd be more worried, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that she spends more than she makes. She also manages to save a lot more than I do, which is something I've neglected to mention. Prior to my D, I had pretty good savings, but unfortunately that event wiped me out, and I haven't been able to focus on rebuilding it yet. I take solace in the equity I still have (yes, even in this market) on the home that I managed to keep.

I agree with this approach. As long as the money is viewed as shared, it does not matter how the accounts are held. In today's world, having a joint checking account can be a headache to keep up with and cause problems in itself (i.e. 2 people writing checks, buying things and one forgetting to match up checkbooks. bouncing checks can cause problems). It is all about discussing how your money will be spent (POJA) before spending it. The laptop is a red-flag to me, but merely a red-flag as to something you need to discuss and work through.

As to the IB issue, I think IB is not necessarily having separate accounts nor separate money, but the perception of "mine" and "yours" since marriage is a union. It applies to not only money, but recreational time, going out to dinner, raising children, etc. If you have children from a previous marriage, they become part of that union and she has to be equal in their well-being (discipline, chores, and general raising of them).

HURT - Yes, I am warming to the idea of separate accounts as long as we can agree that the income is shared and POJA any "large" purchases. As for the laptop, it stopped bothering me when I learned that she paid cash for it out of some bonus money she had just received.

--UPDATE--

Jill and I spoke on the matter a bit more last night. I told her that I was becoming more comfortable with the idea of separate accounts, and I reflected what I've read here about the importance of viewing our income as "our money". I was hesitant and apprehensive about this last part, and said so honestly to her. It feels weird to make that request as the person with the lower income. She assured me that she doesn't view my desire for this as an attempt to take advantage of her.

She replied that she would like to have a joint checking account for household expenses, but that she'd like to have a separate savings account for her own "mad money". This is still something that we need to get clear on. I told her that I wouldn't mind that necessarily, but that I want us to each have enthusiastic buy-in (I don't like using MB jargon with the uninitiated because it usually sounds so hokey to me) on any major purchases. I threw out $200 and up. She said that sounds reasonable.

The scenario I gave was something that could apply to either of us. We're both pretty avid cyclists and good bikes aren't cheap. If she were to decide to buy a new bike, I'd like her to communicate that with me before pulling the trigger on what could possible be a $1000 purchase. It could be that she has the money as a result of a bonus and therefore wouldn't stress our budget. Fine. What would not be acceptable to me would be putting it on a CC with a plan to "just pay on it every month". She nodded and agreed. Likewise, we might have made a prior agreement to remodel part of the house in a few months, or we might be saving for a trip to Hawaii and that maybe a large purchase outside of our prior agreed upon plans might not be the best idea. Just some examples.

I think my final suggestion, which I have asked her to take some time and think about, would be for us to have one joint account for household expenses, separate savings accounts for personal on-the-fly purchases (under a certain limit), and NO non-agreed upon CC purchases. Absolutely NOTHING on credit without discussing it with the other person FIRST.

Seabird, it sounds like you're making good progress. I do have a couple of other suggestions. Instead of a per purchase limit like the $200 you mentioned, I would think in terms of a weekly or monthly limit. If my wife and adopted the $200 rule I could spend $100 every day of the month on seemingly necessary items like tools and hunting gear, but she would be pretty upset after reviewing the bank accounts.

I know you're proceeding carefully in discussing finances with her, but at some point I would try to establish a real budget. X amount for the house payment, X amount set aside for utilities, X amount into savings, etc. The "mad" money each of you receives is predetermined so there is no argument about that hobby purchase if it's something that only one of you wanted. I would also discuss the long range plans for the savings (investments, house, vacation, etc).

I know several people who have individual accounts along with the joint account and they're managing quite well. I'll say it again, it all depends on the perception of who is entitled to the funds and both partners enthusiatically following the plan.

xring - Yes, I believe that we are on the same page. Later that night, I reflected on the conversation and wondered if setting an actual limit would work out. What would keep her from buying a different pair of $200 shoes every night for a week? LOL!

I agree that establishing a budget is the sound thing to do.

have you observed J long enough to know if she is impulsive with money?

you may give the perception that you are controlling with money, and that perception can be overlooked now by J, and J can squaxh impulsiveness for a period of time, but either behavior by either of you, can become a real irritant later in life.

if you are a goal oriented person, what is your goal for the union after marriage?

Define "impulsive with money". Define "controlling with money". These are rather subjective concepts and what you might view as such, others might not see in the same way.

What do you mean "goal for the union after the marriage"? There are many goals, with new ones being created all the time, both low-level and specific as well as more over-arching stuff.

Are you still worrying me over the idea of whether or not I should be doing this in the first place, or are you sticking to the topic at hand? I tried to be pretty clear that I'm not interested in a discussion beyond suggestions for methods on managing our finances.

I don't understand where your questions are leading and I'm suspicious that you still want to tell me that I'm going too fast and that there are too many red flags, etc...

the questions I asked were all about money, and the emotional responses of how its being handled.


I don't worry about you in the least. I thought the topic at hand was finances, which equals money.


i won't make any judgements, I am just asking questions. you see, one of my planning and execution skills is to consider all aspects of a plan to be sure that the unintended consequences are considered, and deemed negligible or able to be dealt with after crossing the bridge.

Making significant purchases without discussion because one hasn't made a significant purchase in a long time. Deciding to spend money on something that is deemed needed after the purchase, but the need has never been spoken about prior to the purchases. Buying something because its on sale, even though its not needed. carrying lots of household inventory. .Spending money on wants before needs.

requiring agreement on allocated personal money. disagreeing after the fact on purchases made with spouse's personal check book money. Having a budget so tight that small enjoyment purchases are criticized as unbudgeted. fear of using credit when credit is used wisely. criticizing losing money when investing money. wanting to be asset rich at the expense of everyday poor and uncomfortable.

your turn

Perhaps I haven't been clear enough yet on the type of information I'm seeking. Please consider that looking for more tactical advice than strategic.


I was using it as a term of expression. I didn't ask if you were worried about me. I thought it sounded a little more polite than the word "pestering".


Thanks. That's not really the kind of information I'm looking for though.


Then my answer is no. I do not believe that she is impulsive with money.


Already asked and answered. She said no.