Thanks MM. I figured it would just take time. Thats why I told her if she wanted to live with her friend right now I would support her in that. All I can do right now is become a better me, get our lives straitened out as best I can alone and hope she sees that the M is the best alternative.

Cant really afford a counseling session right now...but probably can next month.

I can see her wanting me and reading between the lines of what she says but she is too afraid to come back right now dreading that we would be miserable.

Understandable, considering where the two of you have been! So, just keep it steady and keep being the husband she deserves. You are on the right path.

Any WW's out there who's husbands had AO's? How did you overcome that to go back? What did or could your husband have done to try to help heal those wounds? I am changing but it takes actions and not words...

Oh well, guess not. Guess thats where the LB$$ concept really comes in. Just got to get her over that threshold again.

I am still working on cutting out all the LB I can when I find them, some are pretty sneeky it seems. I guess I need to really start thinking about what I say before I say it. Maybe ask myself, would I have said this when we were dating? Oh well, I don't have anything but time anyways.

It gets kinda hard not to have conversations lead to relationship talk. I guess you usually wind up talking about stuff that is on your mind. Wish I could think of more and better topics, though.

What's an AO? Don't see it on the acronym list.

Angry Outbursts.

I'm sorry. Brain block. I knew that.

My H has indeed had them. Not recently, but the last big one was the biggest and it was probably 3 weeks ago. Whew, was it huge. I was scared.

Later that evening, H apologized for how he came at me, but not for what he said. He was/is very hurt. His rage is well-known and surprisingly he's been pretty good at not blowing up since the first few days after my confession. But this was a doozy. It was full force. And I knew it was coming from weeks of pentup pain. So I took it. And later, he came to me explaining he is so confused, so hurt, so all over the place he doesn't know how to express himself. He doesn't know what to do. His outburst was a result of that and he was sorry for scaring me.

He hasn't come at me like that since. He still tells me about pain, disappointment, hurt, and everything else in calm voice (again, not his MO the past several years so this is different) or in emails. I can't argue back when he's telling me his feelings. So we let each other talk about what we feel. The couple of times that the conversation has begun to get hostile, we've said, "This is too much and we need to calm down. Let's come back and revisit it when we can really hear each other." The night of Christmas it got bad and I moved to another room. Five minutes later, H came to me in calm voice, trying to talk more about it. I told him I needed time. He left and 10 minutes after that I returned to him and we continued the discussion. We ended up agreeing to disagree and that was fine.

It's a process. What is helping me get through it (and I hope my H as well) is that we're being respectful of each other. I know I can't possibly know what H is going through. And he knows the same for him with me. We fall back into old habits, but try to catch ourselves and realize that in the end we both want what's best for each other and our relationship. We have a common goal and are making changes to get there. Lord knows I hope in the end we're there together, but if we aren't, it won't be for lack of effort.

Thanks for that post. You brought up an interesting thing I was actually going to ask about. Falling back into old habbits. I realised that very thing Tuesday night when WW and I were going with the kids to take them to eat. My faults in the M were criticisms and AO. But most of the time I talked to her in a very caring voice and she would have AO at me if I aggrivated her or just be cold and distant. Tuesday we were driving and I was talking to her about something and she was trying to avoid talking to me about it again(just like in the M) and she would be withdrawn and then have a small and short AO. It was the that I remembered about that happening all the time in the M. We had fallen back into an old habbit. How do you stop and be intentional with those old habbits? They are, I assume, hard to break. But they can be broken, right?

Talk about anything, even the mundane:

Politics.
The weather.
The ridiculous raincoat that person is wearing.
Your frustrations with your favorite sports team.
How the wine tastes.
What you'd like to change with the landscaping.
What your boss said.
How your W looks.
That new song on the radio.
A story in the newspaper.
Your concerns about the economy.
How you saw the most interesting picture in that office building.
The long line at the post office and how you wondered where everyone in line was from.
Why you don't like Koolaid like you used to.
Whether it's time to change your hairstyle or not.
How she's feeling.
Where you'd like to go away for the weekend.
What's on TV tonight.
etc...

Yesterday I was eating a fantastic mandarin orange. I shared with my H a story about how whenever I see a mandarin, it reminds me of a former boss whom we both respect, and the story behind why I remember the former boss. It took all of two minutes to tell H. H said, "That's a good story. I always liked former boss and that's funny that oranges make you think of him." I try to share little moments like this often now. We've known each other 25 years yet there are still things H doesn't know about me. Do say things that you would have said when you were dating. And things you would say when you're married. You love her. Share your thoughts and ask her hers.

Thanks for that. Sometimes I forget that the mundane can also help fill the void opened by silence...maybe the silence isnt so bad anyways sometimes. I am just the type of guy who is very shy and doesnt talk a lot when I meet people but I cant shut up when I get to know you.

I have to learn to appreciate the silence sometimes.

I believe they can be, but you have to want to break them. Others can't force you to. And if you're having your ENs met, that is huge in wanting to change.

Are you meeting her ENs? Is she meeting yours?

When my H and I were in MC before my confession, we were working on many things, including how we talk with each other, including how we fight. It helped us both to have a third party decipher what we were doing and then translate back in language we understood. Some of those practices we still apply and that helps us a lot, I think. For example, we have a phrase of "I'm flooding" when we're getting mad or frustrated and can't properly hear what the other is saying. We have ways to help the other see when wrongful sarcasm is being used and when one is attacking verses truly asking. These have helped us through this very, very difficult time. Is there a third-party who can help you see not only what your bad habits are but how you can avoid them and deal with them? A pastor, MC, Dr. Harley, or anyone?

But yes, old habits still rear their ugly heads and one of my biggest worries is that if/when we get through the darkest part of this storm, they'll move back in. My H knows of this concern too. What to do to keep them away is via MB. Right now I'm avoiding LBs, fulfilling his ENs as best I can (if he ever let's me know exactly what these are it will be more helpful), living Radically Honestly, and applying the communication tools we learned a few months ago in MC. And I do these things in a respectful, engaged, and sincere manner. I ain't perfect, but I'm trying. And I think because my H and I see each other trying, that we continue to put in the effort.

She lives at her moms right now so it is kinda hard. I meet her EN as best I can but she has no interest in meeting mine right now.

We are in marriage therapy with a great guy who is helping us to see what we do that hurts the other and to stop doing it. I have learned a LOT about my W during this time, plus the hour there, during, and back is the only time we have alone. I feel like she isnt really getting much from it right now in her fogged out state, but I sure am.

That probably has much to do with it, Rusty. I've been NC since last summer and I admitted my cheating because our marriage was inches from ending and I wanted to save it if possible -- knowing (thanks to much feedback from folks here) that confessing about my infidelity was the only thing I could do if H and I were to make it at all. It sounds as if your wife is apprehensive to dive into recovery. My H who was the one betrayed, still isn't sure he wants to stay with me. But his actions most days show he's trying to improve as an H as he continues processing everything. He's told me if we don't stay together, he'll be able to apply what he's learned in his next relationship. And that's fair, considering what I've done. But I'm glad he's at least going through the motions while we're slogging through this. If he returned to his old ways and we fell back to those nasty habits, I don't believe I'd still be here.

So good luck. I really hope your W opens her eyes and her heart to you. I wish you the best.

-L4

I really appreciate it. Thanks.

Well, OM put in his 2 weeks notice and will be moving to another job. Maybe nothing bad happens and he goes through with it.

yet another step forward... stay positive, fill WW's needs in any way you can

I sure am trying. She actually told me tonight she sees me too much and would like to see less of me. Says I come over too much.

Oh well, guess she just cant handle the plan Aing that good by ol Rusty. We went out alone tonight and when it was over she texted me and said we shouldnt do it again for a while. I think she is trying to block me because I am conflicting her. I'm not sure. I mean, how can I be bad enough to leave if we go out and have a good time? If I am everything she ever wanted, how can she go on without me? Maybe I am causing a lot of internal conflict with her. IDK. Or maybe I am annoying? lol.

All I know is it seems when she seems to be getting closer to me she pushes me away or forces herself farther away. If that makes any sense.

Of course it makes sense! How can she demonize you if you are being sweet gentle rusty who is kind and not at all the fire-exuding Balrog she imagines you to be?

Thats what I was thinking. The last two days I have been over to MIL with her and the girls and doing everything I could for them. MIL kept telling WW how great I was and how sweet I am. All that stuff. My MIL has been my biggest and best ally in this fight. She took up for me Friday night because the girl WW is moving in with didnt want me coming over. WW said it was because she doesnt like me because of all this going on and MIL told her that it because she only hears WW's side of it and that they need to grow up. I wasnt the one who had the A.

This mornign I went to send my MIL a short email telling her thank you and it turned into like a 3 page monster. lol

Last night when it came time for me to leave, D7 just kept crying wanting me to stay and screaming that it isnt fair.

This was a part of the email that MIL said she liked the best. I know it is kinda stupid but it really let me get some of those feelings of feeling like I have been robbed out:

I miss them so much. I never wanted to be a part-time dad but that is what I am stuck with right now. I want to see my girls every day. I dont want to miss out on so much in life. I want to hold them and tuck them in every night. To take a little from D7, it isnt fair.

It isnt fair that I work so hard to save the marriage and WW carries all the power to see if it lives or dies. It isnt fair that our whole world could be turned upside down by one guy who decided he didnt care about ripping families apart. It isnt fair that I had to stand by and know another man was having sex with my wife. It isnt fair that I have to be there for her while he is hurting her. It isnt fair that she isnt there when I need her the most, when I am hurting the most. It isnt fair that he could completely sweep her off her feet in 1 week and it will take me years to get back to that point if she returns. It isnt fair that he will continue with his life after WW like she was only a blip on the radar but my whole family will carry the scars forever. It isnt fair that he can do whatever he pleases and pays no price for it. It isnt fair that he can [censored] her over and she comes back for more. It isnt fair that he is allowed to manipulate her. It isnt fair that he can lie to her and she will believe him but I am truthful to her and she is hesitant to believe me. It isnt fair that he doesnt want her but she wants him. It isnt fair that I want her and she currently doesnt want me. It isnt fair that she could break her vows to me so easily and I have to fight with my whole heart and soul to keep mine. It isnt fair that the life we built together could be wiped out in 1 day. It isnt fair that my kids dont get to have a place to truly call home any more. It isnt fair that they have to have mommy time and daddy time. It isnt fair that so much of the world is against me. But hey, life isnt fair. It is the unfairness of life that makes us grow and become better people. If life was all peaches and cream we would never change...but then again we wouldnt need to either. I wish I had known years ago what I know now about my marriage. I thought that love would do it without help and all those other myths so many believe. I wanted the right partner and then learned that instead I also needed to be the right partner.

That was brilliantly put, Rusty.