I tell people sometimes that it seems to help if you look at what you're going through as a death. A death of the life you expected, no different than the death of a loved one. You'll go through all the same stages of experiencing a death, as per Kubler Ross:
Denial (this isn't happening to me!)

Anger (why is this happening to me?)

Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)

Depression (I don't care anymore)

Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)

It helped me when I had to give up my father, to realize that I was really mad at having to admit that I didn't have the father I should have had, I got a turd instead, and I was mourning the loss of the relationship people should have with their father, and I lost out on. (which occurred because of affairs, btw)

It's during my angry stage that I am having second thoughts about releasing my W from our joint debts. I am being made bankrupt and the joint / several liability will then pass to W. It's the house and the joint bank account that will come inot play where we have the debts.

I have spoken to her about this and she has contacted the bank. The only way to release her from the debt is fo me to take on all the debt personally and make an agreement to pay it off (the bank will not be foretold of the bankruptcy, but this may come up in court and questions be asked during the bankruptcy proceedings)

Right now I don't feel like letting her off, after all, she ran away from me and our money problems by having an affair and then moving to her own rented accommodation. Whenever the joint debts have been discussed, all I am reminded of is that 'her' finances are in good order and 'she' has kept up to all her personal payments.

The fact that I paid the mortgage, the gas, the electricity, the phone, her car, my car and tried to keep a business afloat goes right over the top of her head.

Damn, I'm mad right now and supposed to be sorting it today. I think I need another day or 2 to act on this. Why should she be able to have an affair, split up the family and get off scott free???

Thanks Cat, It was the Kubler Ross's 5 stages that I wsa thinking of when I realised that I was angry. I have been cycling a lot between Denial and Bargaining over the last few weeks along with a brief flirtation with Depression.

I know that these don't have a particular order and they can switch from day to day. I also am treating the 'death' of our marriage as just that...a death. Even if we ever reconciled in the future it would be as new people starting from the beginning.

I'm just a little hesitant on being all Mr Happy Plan A whilst I'm in this frame of mind. I don't think I would be able to carry it off.

I've been running over the last 2 years bank details and most of the joint debt has been spent on household things. There are maybe a couple of hundred UK pounds spent on me and me alone.

I've also been thinking about W salary. It was paid into her own account and apart from paying for a local housing tax every month and maybe a bit of food here and there, nothing else was put 'into the pot'. In fact, once when the bank tried to take payment for a loan out of her account instead of the joint one, she got REAL angry about it and phoned the bank demading they repay her as she NEVER used the joint account. (She didn't have to) She still had no money to contribute to the monthly bills though and when I did ask her to pay once in a while it was always "well, I will, but you will need to repay me, I can't afford it"

Now she has moved into her own house, she can afford the rent, the local housing tax, the gas, the electric, a car loan and still have money left to go out and buy furniture and things. Oh, but not a 50th B'day present for me though - see how far down the line I REALLY am!!

Today, she sent me a txt re the bank and for the 1st time, I never responded, I couldn't, I was too mad. IT was only 4 hours later that I realised that this was the first EVER time that I have not txt back almost straight away. She will probably call me tonight, but I aint gonna answer, I don't want to say anything I may regret later.

Feels good in a way that I am not desperate for her to contact me, in fact I'd prefer it if she didn't!

Hi Silva,

I did read all your thread and your WW sounds pretty much standard. So I think that is hopeful.


Well done on not contacting her when you may blow your Plan A for a satisfying Plan FU you would only regret later.

Remember the carrot and stick approach, don't protect the WS from the consequences of their actions.


Should you reconcile, this will need to change a bit. Have you read "buyers, renters and freeloaders"?

Thanks Lild, I wiould like to think so, but am not really sure I know how at the moment, don't know how to approach the money side as it was my suggestion that I take over the debt to get it written off, If I change now, I will be reversing my own advice and suggestions. I really don't want to see her stuck.


See my above answer, I may have been too hasty over the Xmas holidays. She can't get out of the mortgage though and I am sure that with the current climate, the house is in negative equity.



No, I haven't read any of the books yet, I need to get them, but as I have no credit cards, I can't order online. I am in the process of getting a prepaid MasterCard though, so that will help. With regards to the change, then yes, this WILL have to change. The 1st thing she decided when we were in our false recovery and I was living at her house, was that ALL the bills should be split and she even made out a budget to let me know how much to contribute. Seems when the boot is on the other foot, different rules apply!

Don't bother trying to take on all of the debt yourself. She was willing for you to try and create this business and I have no doubt that she would have been willing to spend the profits if they were to come.

Further, she wanted what was yours and what was hers, but you never go what was hers. Such people don't make good spouses and they don't need any special consideration. You can bet she has money you don't know about at this point.

Don't protect her, she has not protected you. You may want this marriage back but from what you have said I have to wonder WHY?

That is not to say that you two couldn't be married, but alot would have to change before she was truly marriage material.

God Bless,

JL

Another long phone call with W (37 mins), this time I called her, left it until I was calmed down and also long enough from her calling me (hour and a half - that's me being less available)

I'll run through the main points to see what y'all think (Responses will be applauded and appreciated!)

She was agressive at first and said I was being "off" with her. I told her I was sorry if it sounded that way, but I wasn't, I was just concerned that she would be alright so the tension in my voice was coming across wrong.

Regarding the money side, I agreed that I couldn't really help the situation as it would mean taking out a new loan, and even if this is possible, it would look bad when the bankruptcy proceedings start and they may view it with suspicion. W said, "well I guess I'll have to deal with it then and pay it off over goodness knows how many years". I told her I felt bad, I wanted to sort it, but realistically, H & W should stick together in times of crisis and not run away like she did. I said I couldn't really feel sorry for her situation, she chose it, not me and as I was going to lose the house, already lost my W and my car and didn't know where I was going to end up, the bank overdraft was the last thing on my mind. I reminded her that I had been dealing with this on my own for over a year and maybe we could have worked it out better together. (Maybe the wrong thing to say, but there was a long silence.) She was annoyed by the fact that I hadn't responded to her text earlier in the day (big 180 for me). I told her it was because I was busy at work and also I wasn't sure how to repsond given the facts she had told me. I needed time to think.

I reminded her that she had said that if we were still together, I wouldn't see her stuck and would help. She had totally forgotten saying that and denied it. Then she said, "but we're not so you can't". I told her that was her decision not mine. (another silence) She forgot about telling me other things too. I asked her if she was confused. She said "what about?". I said, things, you know. she said "not really, it's because I am tired". She said she is not sleeping well at all. I said "me neither, awful isn't it?!"

I said, "you do realise that this situation is not what I want don't you?". She said "yep". I told her to remember that, always. She said "I will".

She then started to ask about our cats, how were they, were they alright. I said they were fine and no matter what happens to me and where I end up living, they are coming with me. She said she was glad about that.

I told her that I was worried that she would be alright, because I was upset that I couldn't sort the debts. She said, it's because you are thinking about things and not burying your head in the sand like you used to. I told her that whilst I understood her feeling like that, she was mistaken, I never really did 'bury my head' but we never sat and talked about things like this before, so it was easier for me to put a stop to the worries as I could force myself to forget for a while. Then quite out of the blue, she asked me when my next IC session was. (where that came from I don't know!)

The call ended with her confirming she was still ok to go for a walk on Sunday and I told her to take care and I would speak to her later.

I got the impression that my 180 in not responding caught her off guard quite a lot. She really sounded upset and a little lost. As usual, I made her laugh a few times and ended the call on a cheery note.

So, whaddya all think?

Just have to say that I feel a little guilty about not involving myself in other threads at the moment. I feel such a noob at this that I don't think I could contribute anything useful just yet.

Bear with me people, I'll get there!

Thanks JL, as honest as usual.

I really think I would know if she had 'other' money. I may be painting a blacker picture of her than neccessary. We used to discuss finance and be party to each others bank details and wage slips etc. She has always been more careful with money than me, I have admitted that to her many many times. Her 'can't afford' means that there may be future bills to pay. My 'can't afford' means that I don't have the cash right at this moment, but when I do, we will do whatever it is.

A lot of it has to do with how I was feeling today. Having said that, facts are facts and can't be denied.

Thanks for looking in on me again though, much appreciated.

After reading your thread just wanted to add a slightly different spin...

Her not being attracted to you is an interesting phenomenon that I read about quite a bit with WW. It seems they can be intimate with only one person at a time. Often a WW will stop SF with their H while in the midsts of the A. My take on this is she may be saving herself...just a thought.

I admire your honesty and willingness to turn it around. I agree you should make her come to you more often too.

One thing you may want to think about in the future is this situation is NOT permanent. You will not remain friends with her the rest of your lives. Either she will come back as a partner or you will move on with someone, who, I doubt, will be accepting of the relationship you have with your ex. So when she interjects, "We are just friends..." you can add..."for now." And be clear with her, you are friends with her for now, and hope it develops into something more. If it doesn't, you will move on. She will not have your R to take for granted all of her life.

I have other thoughts, but will save them for later...

Thanks SHM.

That thought has crossed my mind too. You know, I am with 'him' so I can't with 'you'. I know that during my EA many years ago that I was turned off by my wife physically. That's a WH and only an EA. If she has had or is in a PA and being a WW, the who knows

I did say to her on NYE that we were friends 'for now' and she asked what I meant. I told her that I didn't know what the future holds and left it at that.

Bit of journalling...

Still trying to sort out the joint debt in my mind. I don't think it's fair that W should be saddled with the whole debt. but nor should she get away with owing nothing. I am therefore going to go to the bank and split it 50 - 50, that way we both have responsibilities.

I am going to leave it until I see her at the weekend to tell her that though. She may have other ideas, I need to jusdge her reaction to reality first and she needs time to do that.

Just remembered something W said last night.

She is calling to pick me up when we go for a walk on Sunday.

2 days ago she told me that she wouldn't be bothered about coming to the house now (even though it made her feel REAL bad before) because "now it's different"

She said that she won't come into the house on Sunday though (our former MH). I asked her why and she said "it's not my home anymore".

Anyone care to hazard a guess where that particular mindset comes from?

Guilt....

Thanks SHM, I thought the same.

Do you think she knows it is guilt but daren't say or that she just isn't able to understand why she feels like that?

I'm still trying to get into the WAW mindset a little more to help me understand. I am still losing faith and getting angrier and it's really not what I want to do.

Watch your anger level and your LB. It may be time for Plan B. Try to continue Plan A as long as you can...it really seems like it's working. But I think a good Plan B may be even more effective with her...you both have taken each other for granted for so long. And you have realized what you are missing, but she has not...yet.

Can you elaborate?

I'm going for an IC session in a minute so will talk through my anger with her. She has been a fantastic help so far, but last I saw her, we were still in recovery. It will be an interesting session

Well, during the A my FWH ( first time I ahve been able to write that ) said he "didnt miss any of the stuff around here", during the false recovery he said he hated our bed with all the cushions, pillows, quilt etc. A few months ago i asked him if he wanted us to buy new stuff for the bed because of that. He didnt remember saying it and even said I was crazy because "I love this set, we picked it out special".

Believe nothing they say. Actions, not words.

Yep, I guess your're right Lild. Thanks for the insight.

I've just had my IC and I have been pretty much told that from my recalling my W actions, that she is very confused and unhappy. Having me around is giving her something to blame for her unhappiness. After all, I am the 'soft' option.

She told me that my W has pressed the 'self destruct' button and that I should stand well back out of the blast radius! I should drop the focus away from W and put it squarely on my own head.

I have to look after myself in the first instance, I cannot help my W, only she can. If W asks me to join her in any day out or whatever, then I should only accept if it's something I WANT to do, and not to do it for her or 'us'.

Sound not to far away from what everyone on here has always said and what I am doing. This is from an IC that has NO conception of MB or LB or any of the Harley methods.

Hmmm...that's got rid of a lot of my anger anyway