Banter between friends? You know, this is such a good example of just how confused we become as betrayed spouses. If some friend described his wife talking this way to anb ex-lover, do you have any doubt that you would never buy that this is banter? Yet, when it is happening to you, the crazy denial that many of us have expierienced kicks in.

There is no way their exchange was anything other than the beginnings of a plan to hook up. Friends do not talk like that to one another. They just do not and you need to see she is lying , and rather poorly, at that.

I'm in complete agreement and I appreciate the reminder. Thank you.

I want so bad to give her the benefit of the doubt that I start believeing her. I needed this fresh reminder.

However not for 1 second I have led her to believe that I BUY THIS FRIENDSHIP STORY. I have told her plain and simple this is NOT A FRIEND. Every time we talk about it (only during MC) I clarify that this is an EX, not a friend.

During our second MC session I think the MC got my point. She stated that he believed the relationship with this friend was the way I described it. I also saw the MC had a copy of "Surviving an Affair". I'm clinging to any hope here.

Our second session was a few days ago and todat the MC had a session alone with the WW. When I came home she was in great mood and trying to be nice. I was kind of in my head and did not acted lovingly. I was a bit distant.

I have been upset since I know the OM tried to contact her last saturday. I do not know whether they spoke or not.

Thanks Imagine. You are great . I would like to explore this further.

I believe the answers are something like this:
1.- I believe she sees me as the "instigator" for not paying enough attention to her emmotional and physical needs. I confess to be guilty of that. There are other reasons to our distance that are really not due to me... her mood swings, her anger management problem, having a baby, a new job, managing a business, moving to a new city... these are all things that have happen in our life in the past three years.

2.- Great question. I have struggled with this. I feel like she carries the burden to proof to me that my lack of trust is unreasonable. But what can she do? Do you have ideas? People with similar experiences how do they get over this issue?

3.- Another great question. I need ideas here... I really do not know what to ask so we can overcome this. What other spouses commit to?

I am sure that if you had talked to your ex girlfriend for the past 16 years and told her that you could try to visit her so she would have an opportunity to jump your bones; you wife would certainly agree it was just banter....NOT! I wish you luck my friend but my guess she has no boundaries when it comes to this man. It sounds like your have been in a marriage between three people: you, her and him. You judge a person by their actions and her actions are speaking volumes. Saying she would love to jump his bones and she would try to fly out and meet him is not banter. He is her former lover that she refuses to disconnect from. It sounds like you also have suspicions that she has already been with him since you have been married. Listen to your gut. Please don't let her play you for a fool. Her actions indicate that she does not respect you and your relationship. If you do not respect yourself then who will? Enough is enough. How can you have a future with a spouse who will not let go of her former lover? You deserve better than to waste your life playing in this self-induced drama by your wife. I wish you luck.

Banter. Baloney.

They commit to no contact with the former lover.

There is all kinds of information out there that indicates that it is not a good idea to stay in contact with former lovers.

She has not only stayed in contact with a former lover, but she has had communication with him that she has kept secret from you; She shares a relationship with him that is secret from you, her husband.

She has not only established a secret relationship with him, but this secret relationship also includes provocative "banter". The "banter" includes words that state a hook-up is planned.

She is apparently telling you that there is no problem and wants to keep everything the same as it is now.

Stand strong that it was very wrong for her to keep a secret relationship with a former lover, that the banter is way out of line, that you question the full extent of the relationship, that she must stop the relationship and have no contact with this guy again.

Of course she wants to keep everything as it is now - she's got her cake and she's eating it too.
She's ripping you off. It doesn't work when there are three in the bed, so to speak. She's not giving her all to your marriage. She's not giving her all to her "friend" either.
No-one's the winner.
What's the betting that the "friend" is also married. If so, his wife is being ripped off as well.
She's known this guy for 16 years. They had the chance long before you came on the scene to get serious, get married, have kids and do all of the usual things. Chances are they didn't get along well enough to make that commitment. Now she (and possibly he) has made a commitments in the form of marriage but no-one, not her, him, you or his wife if he has one is getting out of the marriage what you should be getting because of the half-pie relationship between her and this so called friend of hers.

I hope your marriage guidance counsellor insists that she cut all ties with this "friend" of hers. Jumping bones isn't what you do when you're married nor is secret banter. There aren't secrets this big in a successful marriage. That man has to go.

I appreciate all the support. We are all in agreement that this man needs to go.

Here is a question that I have been trying to answer in my head:

What kind of evidence can I reasonably request from her in order for me to know the link has been cut?

If she comes to me and tells me. I spoke to him and now we are never going to speak again that seems to me like an easy way out and I will personally not believe that she can cut it that easily. I believe there has to be some catharsis for it to really break.

What can I reasonablly ask from her? How do I summon the MC into my request?

The guy in not married. he is divorced... he is a complete player, he is a complete ladies man; he says the right things all the time and I'm sure he know what buttons to push on my WW.

This is a dangerous character.

The point is, you have the right to request that she write and you approve and mail a NO CONTACT letter to him. And that she maintain that for the rest of your lives. You have to demand the passwords to all her accounts, see her phone whenever you want to, etc. If she's not willing to agree to total transparency, she doesn't thing she's done something wrong, and you'll never be able to trust her.

I'm so very sad today. We just went to our third MC session. The MC choose so simply avoid the elephant in the room and focus on our communication issues and her feelings of lonelyness and lack of help from me around the house.

I let it ride as I was hoping the MC would finally come around and approach the subject.

I had stated initially that I would not discuss any other relationship issue as long as this BIG issue was dealt with. The MC has clearly decided to ignore me.

Time to get a new MC.

What does your MC charge?

Why not try the Harley's?

You get complete transparency: Access to cell phone records, all passwords, all bank accounts, all work passwords and phone records, keep a key logger on the computer. OM's full name, address, access to all documents pertaining to him that she can make available to you--many e-mails can be retreived.

Also a post nup agreement that if contact is found, you get full custody and child support from her and she leaves the home and you get the family assets. This should be no problem since she would have already agreed to no contact.

How do you involve the counselor in it? Well from the sounds of you more recent post, the counselor is not worth anything. I'd dump the counselor--are you paying for the counseling or is insurance providing the counselor with welfare--er payment?

Hi Kingrat,

Sorry I've not been able to speak awhile. Back on the PC after losing my voice.

You have a responsibility to look after your family for a while as a married man. You wife my have to realize you sense of need to serve a household.

The MC's need to have the deal settled. Can you get to a marriage builders window.

I cannot write for long periods a tall. Listen to other posters on the posts.

It's unanimous. Dump the counselor.

We were in counseling for one year. My ex used to be on his cell in his car as we drove separately to the counselor's office. I checked his phone & sure enough, he was on it with "her" from the time we each left the house to the time he parked outside the MC office, and then again shortly after we got back into our cars.

The MC did not insist on ending contact. He advised me privately to pretend I was putting OW into a glass and placing it on top of the stove during the time of the sessions. ("Elephant in the room.")

The money we spent - egh.

Counsel with the Harleys. No progress can be made while there is any contact with the affair partner.

There is so much that has happen in the last few days. here is a quick run down:

Last Tuesday:

- I posted my last message in here at 1:38PM. In distress for being ignored by the MC
- Around 2pm I called the MC by phone. Told her that I could not wait till Friday for our 1 on 1 session. I told her I wanted to talk immediately. She gave me appointment for next day at 9:30am.
- I came home and checked her computer. She had gone to facebook to query for the OM. She only looked him up, nothing else. But she did go looking for him. I became severely stressed. I was very upset that in the same day that the MC does not address the issue she went looking for the OM.
- I decided to throw the towel. I felt lost. I felt with no help from the MC and no commitment from my WW so I lost it. I reached my mental threshold and decide to divorce.
- We were having dinner and I tried to bite my tongue but could not do it. I told her I had made up my mind and I was going to divorce her. Our son was sitting very close to us.
- She blew up, yelling very loud, banging things, very angry and very upset. I was not angry but I yelled louder than her. That was a moment of madness. Not sure if is worthwhile to describe the things we yelled in that moment but there were no personal insults. We never had a moment like that ever since we met.
- We things calmed down she cried saying her life was a failure. We went to bed in better terms that night.

Last Wednesday

- I met with the MC. I told her that she was endorsing WW behavior by not addressing the issue. I said I was not going to participate in further sessions when that issue is left out. She understood and she said she does not want to give up. She asked me if I still wanted her to work on our marriage and I said yes, however I said that my position is not negotiable that the OM needs to be out of the picture.
- I went to the office and I wrote 2 letters to my wife. Letter 1: explaining why she needs to give up the OM by her own will and not forced by the treat of divorce. Letter 2: Explaining how my physical and emotional needs have also not been met during the last 3 years and how lonely I have felt.
- The MC scheduled a meeting with my WW for Friday.
- I could not sleep at night so I wrote her another letter explaining to her why I consider D. I felt that she needed to know why D is an option to me. I explained that her inaction was a sign to me that she does not share responsibility and that she is unwilling to work on regaining my trust.

So what happened?

Last Thursday:

- We had an honest conversation for about 2 hours. She allowed me to ask her many questions about the relationship and she tried to answer honestly but I could tell she was filtering the details that would hurt me the most. She was not being entirely honest.
- From the information she did give me it is again clear that this is an important relationship in her life and he is deep in her emotional system.
- She agreed to change her cell phone number. She agreed to write a NC letter and let me read and send it certified. I really could not tell if she agreed because I mentioned the D word or because she is truly remorseful and wants to cut ties.

Last Friday:

- I sent her another letter answering the question she had: Why can’t she just call him and tell him not to call her anymore?
- I sent her a link to a website that talks about NC Letters and provides context around a NC Letter
- She DID change her cell phone number.

I sounds like you were suckered into more lessons with the MC.
What did she say that she was trying to achieve.

Ask her if she knows about Marriage Builders construction techniques. Remember there are so many councilors in marriage Building that fail.

I would conclude that a lie detector test check out your missus for lie detection. Ask if she would be interested in doing this.

Read SAA. Remember both of you must reveal past relapses in your past. Also did you alter the NC letter in the message to indicate that both of you is watching her post. Now you need to install a vcr camera on the property.

All these bits need to come to us first so we can give you the fastest legal, wayward disaster speech in the future.