TA's post is really bothering me. I get it that there must have been a problem in Tully's M for WH to hook up with OW. And the problem is with WH.

But doesn't OW "feed" this problem, and as long as she's in the picture WH won't change or realize what he is missing? And isn't the mentality of the OW such that she will do most ANYTHING to keep WH around? OW must be either really desperate or have a huge ego if she's willing to be with a married man with 4 kids and a wife willing to fight for her M and family.

OW is a bar to an alcoholic. During the fog, WH thinks of her as open 24 hours a day, doesn't charge for the drinks, makes house calls, etc.

Isn't ending the A the first order of business? And Tully has taken a stand with the email.

Holyheart, nothing that Tully does is likely to affect the OW's attachment to the WH. The force that's feeding that attachment is the WH.

If the WH was determined to recover his marriage, then it really wouldn't matter if the OW was camped naked on the doorstep. And, unless she's psychopathic, she WOULD get the message that he's no longer interested.

If the OW just 'went away', the marriage might be a bit closer to recovery. But the hard truth is that few OWs just meekly go away with the first NC request, or the second, or the sixth. They go away when there's clear, consistent, sustained behaviour from the WH that gradually convinces them that there's no more fun to be had, because the WS refuses to engage with them on any level. In Tully's case, there has not been anything like a clear, consistent, sustained signal from the WH, which is why the OW has hung around. The WH keeps 'telling' her that she's in with a chance.

The OW is just doing what an OW will do, given encouragement from the WH. It's the WH who needs to break it off, and find a way to keep it broken off. Ending the A is not in Tully's power. What is her power is to make the affair environment less attractive for both parties to be in, and that's what she's done.

TA

Hi Holyheart,

I see that you are also in Plan B and that your H has maintained contact with his OW while lying to you. I'm sorry that this has happened. You and tully are doing well to try and understand and closely follow Dr Harley's advice.

Dr Harley has observed that the feelings that the WS has towards the OP are like those that an addict feels towards a substance that is abused. His treatment of alcoholics and other addicts has led him to his successful behavioural approach to affairs.

About this addiction, he writes

First, we should discuss what your husband is up against. An affair is usually more than a choice, it's usually an addiction. Even though your husband knows what he should do, he will have great difficulty doing it, because he's addicted.

Your husband probably does love you (even though he didn't sound too convincing) and cannot imagine leaving you. Furthermore, he does not want his family broken up, and he has decided to make his marriage with you work. But in spite of his resolve, he is suffering from the effects of his addiction. He is almost powerless to resist his lover.

Not all affairs are addictions, of course, just like not all people who get drunk every weekend are alcoholics. I have treated many "alcoholics" who simply made a decision in my office to stop drinking. Even though they were suffering the physical effects of years of drunkenness, from that day forward they never had another drink. And they told me that they had almost no craving for liquor after they stopped drinking. I don't consider these people to be addicts. From my perspective their drinking was always something they could have stopped any time they wanted because they were never addicted. The proof was in the fact that they actually stopped cold turkey and suffered no withdrawal symptoms. Another proof was that they were able to avoid alcohol for the rest of their lives. I have known some of them to have remained sober for over 20 years.

Cigarette users can be the same way. Rush Limbough claims that after years of smoking he simply gave it up one day, and has never smoked since. I know of many like Rush who, in my judgment, were never addicted to nicotine. That's why they were able to give up smoking with relative ease.

Affairs can be the same, particularly when a spouse is not in love with his lover. Many affairs are one-night-stands, where a spouse has sex only once with someone who happens to be available. Even when it is repeated, a relationship of sexual convenience without the feeling of love is relatively easy to stop when it is exposed. That's because a relationship without love is usually not an addiction, although it is still devastating to the other spouse when it is discovered.

But it's difficult to know whether or not a relationship is an addiction until a husband has left his lover for good. A husband may claim that he does not love his cohort, as a way to deflect attention from the relationship. Then when everything is back to normal, he gets back together with her. Addicts are notorious liars, and sincerity is their specialty.

An alcoholic that I once counseled told his wife that he had simply made the decision to give up drinking. He was convincing for two years. But one day, he was rushed to the hospital for drinking automobile window washer fluid. It seems he had been adding blue food coloring to gin, and stashing it away in a window washer fluid container. Unknown to him, his brother had filled the container with the real thing, and he just about killed himself drinking it. From that day on, his wife knew he was an addict, and he voluntarily admitted himself into treatment.

In your case, your husband is most certainly addicted because he loves the other woman, and he had so many of the withdrawal symptoms when he tried to leave her. So let's look at ways that addicts must be treated to help them overcome their addiction. Having owned and operated chemical dependency treatment programs, I am well aware of the most successful methods.

To be on the safe side I usually treat most affairs as if they are an addiction. If I'm right, we get to the root of the problem without wasting valuable time. If I'm wrong, going through the steps necessary to avoid seeing the former lover, which should be done whether or not it's an addiction, is simply easier to do.

Treatment for drug and alcohol abuse begins by simply separating a person from the addicting substance. In most cases, it is done in a hospital. There is a period of withdrawal, after which the person is no longer physically addicted. From there, treatment usually focuses on the emotional addiction that helps addicts resist the temptation to go back to the addicting substance. Support groups usually try to help build values and moral character that prevent a relapse. The goal of most successful programs is to help an addict completely avoid the addicting substance for the rest of life.

It is easier to create a place free of the addicting agent for infidelity than for substance abuse. For infidelity, any place will do, as long as it's not where the lover resides. Unlike drugs and alcohol, where there are copies almost everywhere, infidelity involves an addiction to one and only one item, the lover. So it's much easier to remove the temptation because you know where she is, and where she isn't.

It is unlikely that your husband will be able to establish a meaningful relationship with you until his lover is no longer available to him. While she may be in a new location at work, I doubt that they will be able to avoid making contact with each other. So the first thing you and he need to discuss is moving to a place where he cannot make contact with her.

To provide an environment free of temptation to your husband, I usually recommend the drastic step of moving to another state. While that may sound impossible, or at least impractical, at first, moves are not all that unusual in America. In fact, it may give your marriage a whole new breath of fresh air. It will help you form a lifestyle that you both enjoy much more than the one you have now (using my Policy of Joint Agreement). And it will certainly make it difficult for your husband to keep his relationship with his lover alive. He can still do it, of course, but most addicts don't want to be addicted, and lack of easy availability is usually all it takes to break the habit.

How to deal with an unfaithful husband: Letter no. 1.

1. Not all infidelity is characterised by an addiction to a specific OP. This is true where the WS has "one night stands", and, Dr Harley says in Surviving an Affair, where they use prostitutes or are serial adulterers. These people might be addicted to the feelings that the sexual conquests bring, but they are not addicted to a specific OP.

2. Where there are strong feelings, described as "love' for the OP, then the feelings that contact with the OP brings are addictive.

3. The first step with an addiction is to break contact with the source of the addiction. In an affair situation, there must be a complete cessation of contact with the OP. Drastic steps must be taken to achieve this, including a change of job or location where necessary.

Dr Harley is very clear in SAA that, while we can fall in love with anyone who fulfils our most important emotional needs, and that therefore an OP could be almost anyone, after an affair there is an addiction to the specific OP, who will always be a threat to the marriage. The first step to recovery is to break the addiction by achieving total NC. The identification of emotional needs and the following of Dr Harley's four rules of marriage follow.

I thought you were awfully brief about your dad, but figured you were just distracted.

Hi Tully - being a good single parent is always going to be tough, but especially when we didn't choose it!

Kids will play one parent off against the other for life! The grass is always greener when the custodial parent gives the tough love and discipline and the occasional parent sweeps in with a whirlwind of love, affection and usually treats. It happens in shared parenting households too. Mum says no, ask dad...dad says yes...

Your kids know more than you think and my 3 1/2 year old daughter often asks me if I'm sad. She often gets really irritating and I get my maddest when I am upset about daddy or something he did or said. They know and they try to steal back the attention to fix you. They carry a burden of loving both parents and wanting to make it happy for each.

Maybe they don't like the thought of your WH on his own. He probably tells them that he misses them in France, he's lonely, their friends miss them etc. All obvious responses and your kids will react and want to go back to help daddy.

Stay strong and focussed.

it's better to fight for something than against something

BR, I've been heavy-hearted because I've known for the past 2 years that I was losing something that was very precious to me - my marriage. I could feel it slipping away and I tried so very hard to bring it back. I tried to talk to him so often (those 'heavy conversations' that he now believes caused our M to break-down) Searching through my email archives earlier for something else, I found this email I sent to him on the 22nd of May - the affair had started in Feb but D-day was 3 months later.


He never replied to this.



I'm feeling a bit numb, to be honest. I hate to accept defeat, to say 'so that's it', after so many years and with 4 children whose future happiness I'll probably be responsible for more or less alone. But I'm not sure there's an alternative. I'm also very nervous that I may be obliged to stay in France with the children where I would find it very difficult to work because I'd have no support with the children and my qualifications are not fully recognised and I haven't worked for almost 7 years. I would so hate to be financially dependent on WH for the rest of my life.

I've just read that back and I'm not as down that this post might indicate. I'm just musing over stuff.

WH had expressed an attraction to OW to you even back then?

You will look back and re-analyse the last two yrs with things you said, things you didn't say, what he did, what he said up, down and every which way. You have to remember that WH was in the midst of his A and while it hurts to hear it, he was not thinking of you. He wasn't thinking of you, his children, his career, not even OW...it was all about what he wanted and he didn't care about anyone but himself. For a long time it was hard to wrap my mind around that because I couldn't imagine having that sort of mind set. My H would respond to emails sometimes with I love yous or other nice things and at times I wish he hadn't responded at all because it obviously didn't mean much. There's nothing good about either response.

I understand your fears. I know there is nothing I could say to ease them but for what it's worth you will survive this tully. During this entire ordeal you have shown that you are strong, decent and kind. I know you don't always feel that way but those qualities haven't changed. The circumstance of your marriage have but those core qualities that make you who YOU ARE are the same and they are good.

If WH is set on D (and we still don't know that D will be the final outcome), you are not accepting defeat. You may have to accept that WH is not the man you want or need him to be but that is not defeat. That is his failure. What is WH or OW winning? Disgust and snickers from onlookers, disdain from your children (if not now then later), shame? Doesn't sound like much of a prize to me.

Re-read what TA posted a several pgs back about the BS's recovery. I think the quote is now in the Notable Posts thread as well. It may sound very hollow to you now but you will survive this tully.

Thank you for everything, BR. It's appreciated.

Just to update you on my conversation with the solicitor. (Sorry it's so late but I feel as if I'd like to press a button and stop my life so I can get off for a while -it's making me dizzy!)

Good news is that he says it's highly likely that I would get the custody of the children and the right to keep them in Ireland given all the circumstances. WH would usually get to see them every second weekend and half the school hols. I have no problem with this although it's unlikely that the court would not allow OW to be witht them (has to be a drug abuser or paedophile or something for this apparantly)

However, I was shocked by the small amount of money I could expect for the maintenance of the girls, just over a quarter of WH's salary with this going up to a half if I want support for me too. I don't know how this could work. He could have more than half his salary along with hers and no kids while I barely survive on peanuts for 5 of us. Doesn't seem fair to me.

There is 'fault divorce' in France and adultery is a motive but since 2005 this is given less and less frequently. Most often it's for serious physical abuse and in any case it doesn't bring any legal or financial advantages. Also it costs more in legal fees and takes longer to obtain a D.

WH picked up the girls this evening until Sunday morning. DD11 will be 11 tomorrow.

No more news from WH. I understand the next move if he does go for D is a registered letter. However I did speak to one of the colleagues quoted in the email to OW and he said that he discussed matters with WH and mentioned that he still hasn't make a decision. I said I thought decision was made but the colleague wasn't so sure. I'm not sure if I want WH back in any case. Actually I almost sure that I don't. But maybe the girls do.

Love to you all. Have a good weekend.

Tully

Go for half. Seriously.

I felt the same way you did, and told then-WH that I would take money for the kids, but not a penny for me.

My opinion has since changed. Every penny kept away from a sordid affair is a penny much better spent than it would have been. (You probably won't see that on the Top 10 Proverbs of 2009 list, but there it is. )

Take everything you can (if it comes to that), not out of vindictiveness, but because it will make the life of your precious girls easier, and allow them more time to be with you.

Also, don't try to decide whether you want him, until he breaks and shows you what he's capable of. Maybe you'll want him back and maybe you won't, but there's no way to tell from this end of the tunnel.

(I have a guess, though. )

Tully:

You are incredible, Neak. Solid as a rock! For the girls sake I'll take the max. It's crazy that they would end up with most of his salary plus all of hers for 2 people while I would have to live with less than a quarter of that total sum for me and the four girls.

Thanks, barbiecat!

There's no point in looking for anything "fair" out of this Tully - none of this is fair.

Your family is so lucky to have you at the helm. I loved Little Women and it reminds me of you and your 4 girls!

Thanks 2M2L for the encouragement. Hope all is well with you and your little ones.

Go for at least half and ask for the spousal support. No better time to get as much as you can vs having to drag him back to court later and you've supported his career all these years. If I had gotten a divorce I would have cited the adultery even if there was no financial benefit and it lengthen the process. I would have named OW as well. If that isn't a concern to you, perhaps you could use it as leverage for more money. Even though others know of the infidelity, it's very different to have it on a public document for the world to see forever and ever.

Not surprised WH isn't blabbing about getting a D. Perhaps when he read your email he may have seen just how vile OW really is but just doesn't WANT to admit it. He's been in denial about OW's nature and even what his sleazy A says about him for a long time. WH is a logical man except where his A is concerned. If he removed his emotions from the situation and read what you wrote he'd be thinking this guy is an giant ahole and this OW is a manipulative tramp. Not to mention the effects his behavior has had on you and the children. Even though what you wrote isn't first time news to him, it may have FINALLY been heard combined with the added effect of exposure.

The colleague you spoke to...did he contact you or you him? Via email? I hope that some of these people have the cajones to tell WH what an idiot he his and don't mince words about it either.

As Neak said don't try and decide if you want WH back right now. Your emotions will be all over the place. Hope your dad and sister are doing better. You too!

You present a very good argument there, BR! Count me convinced.


I copied the email to both of the colleagues I quoted with regard to their opinion of her scientific work. I thought they wouldn't object but I was still delighted when they both sent emails of support later on. One of them (the man) said that he had spoken to WH and intended to write up an email to both of us. On Friday when I hadn't recieved anything I rang him. It was then that he told me that he got the impression that WH hadn't really made up his mind. Actually, I'm not banking on this colleague. He is full of good intentions but I suspect with a distinct lack of cajones (whatever they are).

Update on the weekend: Not really a lot to report but WH didn't mention D to the girls. One the twins tackled him again (she's my little DD8 Braveheart) on the subject and asked him if he was going to get rid of OW. He said 'it's not as easy as all that'.
DD11 said to me quietly in private 'I don't think Dad would have told us the truth about all this if you hadn't'. I said 'No, iI don't think so either.' Still, he didn't tell them we were divorcing. He tried to be nice to Brother 2 who was there on Friday evening when he picked them up, thanking him for getting them ready. (Not sure if thanks were in order since Brother sent off one of the twins in slippers and they had come back the next day to get her shoes.) Brother gave him the brush-off which I'm sure he didn't like.

Other minor update: My very good friend and her daughter (who is best friends with DD11) are coming from France to visit next weekend. WH knew about this from the girls and is not coming. I got an email from this friend this afternoon telling me that WH sent her an email asking if he could meet up with her before she leaves. I take this as a positive sign as it's the first time he has voluntarily tried to talk to anyone about this and especially someone who is so supportive of me. I'll keep you updated about this but all of my family, who were open and supportive of reconcilation until now, think I would be better off without him and I should walk away now.

Have to run some errands but will hopefully catch you later.

Hi Tully!

Well, don't make any decisions at this point. I think WH would still prefer that you 'threw in the towel' so he will be able to tell others after the fact that he was willing to work on reconcilliation but you wouldn't hear of it. Just stay in your dark Plan B for now and make him do the work towards Plan D if that is what he wants. Unless of course your LB is completely in the red and you just want Plan D yourself then you should do what feels right to you.

Glad to hear your good friend will be visiting! I'm sure you and DD11 will have a great time!!

How is Ruby fitting in with the Tully clan now? I'll bet the kids just love her to death already.

How is the scone business? When will I be able to buy some stock in your new venture?

Mindshare

Do others notice that you can often immediately tell a North American from a European on these forums by the use of their English?

I've picked up a bit of Spanish from reading here, and I've worked out that "cajones" are little round things. We never use that expression in Britain (or, I imagine, Ireland), but I think that tully and I might spearhead its use on these shores.

How's this for a definition? "Little round things" that are attached to the underside of WH's brain.

That's wonderful and so accurate, Holyheart!

I suppose in the interests of fairness I should learn the equivalent term for the link between brain and the body parts of a WW. Do North or Central Americans have one?