Novembergirl's list of things that make HER a person capable of forgiving:

1. No longer will I let my ego guide me.

"For a moment, sit by yourself in quiet remembrance of where your ego has taken you. Remember the strangers the ego assisted you in condemning. Remember the relationships it assisted you in breaking, the friends it assisted you in hurting, and the family members it told you weren't worth your forgiveness. Question the ego and your actions, and feel what it has brought and offered you. If, when you think of insert name here, bitter and angry thoughts enter and pollute your heart and mind, then choose not to play the ego’s game any longer."

2. I accept responsibility for my own actions. This will help me to make rational decisions as to what I am feeling/doing and I will no longer try to deny what I am doing to myself and others.

3. I am grateful for the forgiveness that others have offered to me and remember it when an opportunity for me to forgive comes along.

4. I will no longer judge peoples actions, but use the knowledge I have gained from here to better understand why they might feel that way.

5. I have normally been a very honest person, and all of this has shown me how much I was lying to get what I thought I wanted. I don't think I've ever lied that much in 10 years, let alone 5 months...Being honest and open with myself, and with others will allow me to avoid building up resentment and will once again let me be the easy going, carefree person I used to be.

"We have been given a smooth road in the beginning. We complain about how incredibly bumpy our roads are, yet we cannot see, nor will we admit, that it is because of our own selves that our roads are bumpy. We continue to try and fill these holes with illusions and lies that will not stand the test of time. We curse the road, and curse and judge those we believe are responsible for its condition. We choose to look anywhere but within, and blame everyone but ourselves."

"You can choose not to forgive. You can carry stuff from your past with you all you want; that is your choice. But sooner or later, your shoulders will become heavy with the burden. So, heavy in fact, that you will fall to your knees. Once on your knees, you will release this weight, and for the first time in a long time, you will truly feel rested and at peace. You will ask yourself: Why do I choose to carry this weight, for the past is gone and the future is imagined. Now you realize you have a choice, and now you truly understand how each choice feels. One weighs your shoulders to the ground, and the other lifts you up. One makes you worry and stress about the past, present and future; the other offers you peace. Through your own judgment one jails you, and the other, through forgiveness, sets you forever free."

p. 177 - You Have Chosen to Remember: A Journey from Perception to Knowledge, Peace of Mind and Joy by James Blanchard Cisneros.


I am not a very religous person, so not all of this makes for comfortable reading for me. But I have found a whole lot of truths here:
http://www.chosentoremember.com/book_excerpts/c7_forgiving_vs_not_forgiving.htm

Was that helpful?

yes, very much so. It helps me put things into perspective, Thanks PB

NG,

PERSPECTIVE is what all of this is about. The DJ mentioned before is just a reminder of how potent a DJ is in poisoning perspective and thus subsequent behaviors.

You probably have no idea how hurt your H is, but at least he now knows what has caused a major portion of what he has been experiencing with you these last months.

Congratulations for telling him, and for answering his questions. He will have more, you will see anger, but remember anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as: pain, frustration, fear, etc.

You have made a big step by telling him the truth. Now it is time to work on YOUR perceptions of him.

God Bless,

JL

Thats going to take some work. I now have to untwine all of the things I've been telling myself from the exaggerated to the untrue. I need to sort out the good and the bad memories and see if there's enough good memories left to try and build on. I don't know if I can or not. I don't know if he'll really forgive me or not, all I know is I need to try. I still don't know if I want to go back to him or not. I told him that and he was hurt. But I need to know I'm not going back just because I feel bad for what I did. I need to know I'm going back for the right reasons.

SDC Woman,
I haven't been on this board since last week, so I'm making a very delayed reply to you. Sorry about that!!

I think the other posters answered that question very well, but I need to add something to it.

I think of love, true love, as more of an act rather than an emotion or feelings. Romatic love is about feelings. When I was in the A, my actions were not showing true love for my husband. I was completely self-involved. How can I say I still loved him during that time? My actions did not show it!

When the A was over and I saw my husband in so much pain, I began to view him once again as a real person. I know that sounds crazy, but it's the only way I can explain it. When you're that self-involved and fogged-up, you don't see the people around you. To carry on in that way, deceiving the way I was, meant that I had to callous over and block out any love that I had for him.

As time went on, I was overwhelmed with guilt about the pain I caused. It was like the callouses fell off and I couldn't block the guilt anymore. I found myself thinking about him a lot throughout the day, wondering what I could do to help him heal, wishing I could make it better, feeling completely helpless to do so. But, we were reconnecting, and that is what allowed our love for each other to re-surface, including romantic love.

Does that make any sense?

But you are approaching this from the RIGHT perspective. You are doing what is morally right and no matter what comes out of this, you will be much better off traveling down this path. I agree that you should not go back because you feel bad...but you feeling bad for what you did shows REMORSE. You are righting your wrongs, clearing your conscience.

NG, i followed your thread...caught my eye because of similarities between you and my xWW. I printed it off and left it in my car about two weeks ago and then ran into again today. And I am glad to see that you have made tremendous progress from where you were the last time i had read.

First of all, you did the absolute minimum and the right thing on telling your husband about the affair.

I could be wrong. Did you do confess this on the phone or face-to-face ? I thought you did this over lunch but then all the subsequent meetings were over the phone ? It just seems so much more difficult to do this over the phone. No eye contact for one thing.

I see that you are separated already ? or you husband does not want you anywhere close to him for now ? Quite different from what my reaction was. But then as they say there is no right or wrong way to react. But i still believe that separation is not in the best interest for both of you.

My xWW has seen me hurt so badly in the last several weeks that i can tell she is shaken - atleast on occasion. Dont get me wrong. She still has strong feelings for the OM. But my change of behavior and crying did have an impact on her. (By the way, I was able to find this website the very next day after d-day and what a great place this is for someone like me).

For recovery it is very important that both of you work together. I am not talking committments at this point. But what good does it do if you live separately and try to meet your ENs. Is that even practical ?

You said you have ended the affair (and this is good and in my case i asked my wife to end it immediately which she did) but you still have strong feelings about the OM, right ? You said earlier you dont want go back to your husband. Is it because you dont love him (or not in love with him anymore or not in romantic love with him anymore ?) ? Wont the separation make it worse if you trying to work on your marriage ? May be you are not working on your marriage at this point.

About forgiveness...I thought i had forgiven my xWW right away but now i am sure. It is almost like it is my turn to go through conflicts myself. Your husband might be wondering the same thing. But i think that is secondary. For now anyway.

What are you doing to get over your feelings for the OM, besides maintaining a complete NC ? You think you made some progress at all ? You may want to share that with your husband...(remember total honesty is a good thing at this point even if your husband does not ask specific questions).

Thanks MrsZonie. This helps me too and gives me the hope. My wife is seeing the exact same pain I am going through that you have mentioned above. It is getting so much better for me though. Hurts like hell still. I just hope she starts to take the shields off and starts to think about me more often ! And looks like that is something i can look forward to...

How long did it take for you to come out of the "fog" or atleast start thinking about your husband as a real person who cares/loves you ?

Anything else i could do in the mean time ? (in addition to what i am doing already - no Love Busters, trying to meet her ENs, maintaining calm composure, focussing on myself to improve for me and myself and not just for her).

thanks again.

I initially did it over lunch, but afterwords we got together for coffee, and I told him whatever he wanted to know face to face. that was really hard to do. He did end up asking a few things over the phone, but for the most part it was in person.

I guess I feel like he's going to hold it over my head and use it against me whenever something does not go his way...I am pretty sure he's hesitating to have me back in the house because he doesn't want to get hurt anymore. not that I can blame him for that.

He doesn't want me to move back in yet.We both need to change things that we say/do, and I feel I am working very hard to remind him about changing. I tried talking to him the other night about it and he was quite closed up... He is resistant to change, I had a difficult time convincing him even to do the emotional needs forms.


I see that my feelings for OM are still there, I don't know if they will ever go away. I know that hurts my H's feelings, but I can't change them. I don't know how to feel that way with my H, because I have never felt like that with him. He was my first steady boyfriend, and I moved in with him after only seeing him for about a month...I did that because I was still living with my parents (18yrs) and I didn't want them asking me questions... After a while, my self esteem was all but non existant, and he kept me under his thumb so to speak. Looking back, I see that I should not have stayed with him under those circumstances, and I should have stood up to him to determine my true feelings. I guess it was easier to go along with it than to fight it...


It might, but at this point I'm trying to figure out if I can/want to go back.


Some days are bad, some are good. I think about him a lot less than I did a week ago. Conversation still seems forced between me and H. But at least we're talking...At one point in the summer he wouldn't even call me back. and that was before he knew anything. He won't say much about that month, maybe he was seeing someone as well...I havn't asked yet, but I'll have to at some point...

thanks NG for your response. Your response is almost identical to that of my xWW's. HOWEVER, understand two things...

1) dont blame him alone for bad marriage. Unless there was obvious physical abuse of some kind, it takes two for a bad marriage. So you get 50% of the blame too
2) Affair. It was your choice. You take the entire blame for it. I am not saying you are not but just emphasizing.

Living apart and working on your marriage, I dont believe that is a good idea but then that is what you have to deal it then there is not much one can do. Yes he might be very hurt to see his WW around in the house (like in my case) but actually it gets better ! For one thing, the crying stops....eventually...

Combine that with EN/PN that you both try to meet each other on daily basis, i would imagine is a good way to start working on your marriage.

My wife said that same thing two months ago about separating right away after she confessed about the A but now she is doing a 180. She thinks it it not that bad - living together and openly communicating on daily basis.

I have no idea if my xWW will develop the same feelings for me which she did/has for the OM. But through my work, I want to show her that i am a good person and what a sleaze-ball her OM is (sorry dont mean to insult all the OMs but most men have only one thing in mind when they see/meet a girl and i dont think your OM and my wife's OM are exceptions by the way). I just hope that i dont loose my feelings for her before it it too late.

As far your feelings for OM or my xWW's for that matter, going away, in a perfect world, it looks like it could take as much as 6 months - provided

1) there is absolute NC with OM
2) you both continue to work on your self first and then meet each other's needs (indirectly working on your marriage)

And that is what me and my wife are working towards.

yes they do. The feelings do change. Over time. Not me saying. All the great books do. And ofcourse you and your husband working together can make that happen expeditiously.

any updates november girl?

Well I know I havn't replied in a bit. Havn't had access to a computer lately. My H is unwilling to work things out at this point. He is not wanting to try some of the things my counsler suggested and he won't come with me to any of the sessions.

I spent christmas with my family which was nice. He didn't want me to be around for christmas...

Got him a couple of things which he got mad at, said I was trying to buy him off.I don't know what that was about, since all it was was a couple of cd's that I knew he had his eye on... Besides, I would never try to buy my way out of something as significant as this...How can you? Is that even at all possible?

He didn't get me anything, which was understandable considering...

Again, not that I can blame him for not trusting me, but you'd think he'd want me to come back home so can keep an eye on me...so he's not thinking about what I might be doing all the time.(He says that occupies a lot of his time, but he won't pay attention to when I talk to him, and he never asks me anything. I try to talk about things, but he avoids certain topics...

I don't really know what to do, I try to meet his needs when he lets me, which is not very often. I guess he's trying to make me hurt or something. Like I said previously he's not forgiving, and tends to carry a grudge.

He's still mad at his mother for something she did to him when he was 10 or 11... I guess I'm being insensative, but we've all had **** happen to us when we were younger.

I believe you need to get on with your life and don't let things in the past rule how you live...He believe's you should make that person pay. I guess thats what he's trying to do now.

All I can do is continue to try, but I want more out of life than walking on eggshells, and giving up something that I dremt about since I was a little girl. I am getting to the point where I am ready to forget about this and start over somewhere else.

NG,

So are you saying when you had your A you knew, in advance, given the story of him and his mother, that he would not work towards forgiving you, and that he would make you pay?

And you did it anyway?

He can feel like you're trying to buy him back, make him like you again while he sorts out loving you and hating what you did from hating you right now. Every act of kindness, love, generosity can feel like a deep and abiding slice.

Did you acknowledge his perception about gifts? Did you refute it and say you're not doing that...or did you confirm you heard him, understand that's his perception?

Have you really changed anything? You're not around for Christmas with him, your BH, your highest priority...because he said he didn't want you around...maybe I misunderstood, but it seems to me that you're still basing your choices on him...if he did, you would...if doesn't, you won't...something in there.

You could have chosen to stay close by, alone, couldn't you?

How will these DJs you do, defining him...help you?

LA

LA,

I suppose I didn't care at that point. I didn't intend on fixing things when I was having an A right?

As for acknowledging his perception on gifts, I told him it was not my intention to buy him off or make him forget. I told him I wanted to show that I was thiking about him, that he is my priority.

I told him I wanted to work things out. He's being stubborn and won't answer my calls, and ignores my text messages. So I'm frustrated, and at my witts end. He won't let me back in the house and ignores me, he's pushing me away again.

"Have you really changed anything? You're not around for Christmas with him, your BH, your highest priority...because he said he didn't want you around...maybe I misunderstood, but it seems to me that you're still basing your choices on him...if he did, you would...if doesn't, you won't...something in there."

What would you do if he said he didn't want to see you? Would you go anyways? Would you keep calling him and messaging him if he doesn't acknowledge you?

Novgirl,

I put myself in your place when I posted to you...and I believe from what I felt, the depth of my desire for redemption...I would have stayed in town, at my place, and let him know where I would be. Then I'd be there. I would have confirmed or clarified what I was hearing, "I hear you do not think you'll want to see me on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, is that correct?"

I would be listening and repeating, holding myself to texting (which I don't do, btw, I'm inept) once a day or twice...a good morning and a goodnight, possibly...same for calling...and working on letting the outcome go...teaching myself it wasn't in my hands to begin with...even when I thought it was...

It's what I did when BH was WH at the time, not acknowledging or responding to emails, voice mails or calls...and had moved out.

So I can relate in some ways...I went through three months of waiting on his decision...whether he'd choose to work on the marriage, leave it for OW or just leave for himself...

hard, painful time. I hurt my BH so much over 15 years...with cruel infidelity, verbal abuse and lack of respect; even as I'd hurt my marriage through my resentment, built into entitlement, too. We all hurt a lot.

A lot to heal from.

I just knew that I wanted more than anything else was a shot at being the wife I now knew I could be from learning and understanding. I wanted that shot.

And it wasn't in my control.

As the MC said when I shared it, he said "Well, you are his wife. Be it now." So I focused on my choices, actions, learning...acting to what I was learning...and here we are.

We don't deserve being forgiven for the unforgettable...amazing how often we are...that our BS's will take on that journey only they can walk...yet we can act from day one staying in NC, acting transparent, change our stuff--whether they do or do not.

And know our blessings.

What healthy things are you doing for yourself at this time? Books you may be reading, seeing a counselor, going to support group meetings? Examining your own whys and mindset for choosing an A, and reviewing if you know thoroughly how you got to it, what new practices you have in place to help protect yourself from not getting to that mindset again, and how well you see daily choices be part of that?

How to state, not demonstrate, "I feel hurt (angry, frustrated)."

You didn't care enough about yourself at that point to do the right thing...because you were already in that mindset which embodies an affair. How far are you from it right now?

And marriage is about acting from care even when we don't feel caring feelings. We just know in our heads we love, and then act, and the feelings follow.

Though we can live from our feelings, backwards, which is what I did..."I feel therefore I will" kinda life. Destructive, chaotic and full of betrayal, rejection and rejection.


So you're saying you didn't acknowledge his perception?


Do you want to figure out reality from fantasy or you want to keep going the way you are?

Reality: He isn't answering my calls or acknowledging my text messages. He has not told me he wants me back in our home or not. (Unless there's a court order, this is your choice, I believe.) He has not committed to working on our marriage. He has not filed for divorce or legal separation as of right now.

Fantasy: He's being stubborn and ignoring; pushing away and keeping me from our marital home.

I worked on eliminating my DJs in this way...making HIS stuff about me...found the many ways I was disrespectful like this...and how I perpetuated my self-deception and fantasy.

I don't hear your steps on your personal recovery...whether you really want to know in ten years you did everything within your power to save your marriage or not...how hard you studied, what you learned, what you discovered in yourself...your own pitfalls, traps...reactivity. Or how much you really made it about him, pre-A, A and post-A. My heart wants you to have my outcome...

I know I can't make that for you. I can only share my way...and how different I experience my DH, our marriage, today.

LA

NG,

I think part of your problem is that you are sending him very confusing signals. You say you want to work it out. YOu got him a gift, but you left town. But, you also think the following
When someone is deeply hurt by another then they are told they need to change, it often especially in guys produces the results you are getting.

He is thinking "wait a minute you cheat, you lie to me, you leave me, and then I am the one that has to change?" That is not fair.

My suggestion is that YOU change. You will see some very interesting nonlinear responses. When a spouse changes so does the other one. You changed, you cheated, you lied, and you left him for dead in this marriage, and you are seeing changes in him aren't you? Well, perhaps you might need to change your perspective on him and how he reacts. This would allow you to develop a plan for change that will help you, and may help your marriage.

God Bless,

JL

Going to my parents for christmas wasn't out of the way. They live in the same town. I had my cell phone with me the whole time(my only phone) and went to the house on christmas. He didn't want me to stay...So I went to my parents, and told him thats where I'd be if he changed his mind.


I suppose it's not, But I ended up leaving him because that was the only way to get through to him. I tried everything else. I'm not blaming him for everything either.

I've changed so much about myself for him before AND after the A, but it did no good. I put off having a family for 8 years because he didn't want kids, I changed how I looked because he liked it, I changed the way I acted because he wanted me to. I'm done doing something for someone that doesn't appreciate it. I don't mean that I need to be praised every time I do something. I would like someone to at least care that I'm even in the same room. I'm no longer willing to compromise on having a family, how can you compromise that? Get a dog? not likely...

I've been going to counseling sessions that he won't go to. He won't even go by himself.

I know that all sounds defensive and I suppose it is. I just don't know what to do anymore about this. I feel like giving up and moving on right now.