WW called back. Won't let me take son, but says I can come to her apartment to see Chase tonight. How can I say "no" to seeing my son?

Maybe she can make you all take numbers so that the children exchange can run smoother for her.

She makes me want to vomit.

When you finally get your son, I hope you don't even make eye contact w/ her.

Hold your head up high, wrap your arms around your son and walk away.

You can't say no.

Go.

If you can bring him a game/toy so that you can play w/ him and don't have to engage w/ her too much.

Like you Marsh this makes me want to vomit. I cannot stand to see her being in a position to call the shots for anything after what she has done.

You are between a rock and a hard place right now and I don't know what is best for you in terms of legal maneuvers. I would hate for you accepting this non-overnight visit to set a precedent and I am sure that they might try that, and I would hate for you to not be able to see your son. It's almost as if anything you do can be misconstrued to be used against you later.

In my situation, I rejected all exWW's offers where I was the one getting visitation and she had custody up until we had to go to court. Granted it was only a little over two weeks for me but it still felt like eternity. It's like pomdbd3 said, you cannot and should not be bullied into accepting something less than what you want. It might be a matter of putting it all into a judge's hands to get that.

Based on how you described your attorney earlier I would hope that he knows what is best to get you to where you want to be. You just have to stick with moving to what you want. Be steadfast in that and make your attorney work towards that.

Eric,

Pom, Eph and I were all successful in our efforts in court. By sticking to the plan, as we used it, you greatly increase the odds, since you are a man and the odds are stacked against you.

Should you see your son tonight? If it were me, I probably would ONLY if my son and I left and came back later. But this crap of having "supervised visitation" by your wife tonight? I'd turn that down in a second! Sorry, you did nothing wrong, but will be treated like you did? No way!

And no way a judge doesnt see that also. So, when you go into court and the judge hears everything, and she says "well, I offered him time at my place...", you then respond with "your Honor, I have done nothing wrong here. I have not committed adultery and left our family and family home to live in a less than adequate area with the paramour. I have not taken our son with police around and then kept him from his mother. But, somehow, my wife and her attorney believe I should be treated like I have done something wrong. That, sir, is as unacceptable as this situation where my son is not in his home and with is father."

Again, you dont want to appear unrasonable as your attorney said. But the crap she has offered is unreasonable! And it isnt unreasonable to turn down an unreasonable offer!

I know you miss your son! I feel for you, man. But, it is only temporary. You need to stick to the plan. Otherwise, he may be stuck in that hell with Dad out of the picture for a whole lot of his life.

Of course, the sneaky side of me is to show up at her place, begin playing with your son, and when she isnt looking, to just walk out the front door with him and head home! But that's just me!

Do not agree to anything in writing or you will be held to it later.

You have done nothing wrong and should stick to your guns.

But going over there presents you with an opportunity to video tape the place with a hidden camera.

You may be able to confront her and ask her why she isn't letting you take your son out.

Get her on audio telling you how and when you see your son.

But under no circumstances do you and should you agree to anything less than 50/50.

She took your son from you.

He77, legally you could keep your son at your house once you have him there and bring someone over to stay at your place and leave stict instructions that your son is to not leave your home.

It's a delicate situation. But the fact of the matter is that you are still in the marital home and that's his legal residence.

But it would be great to get her on audio berating you in front of the kids. THAT would be a good reason to take her up on her offer to go over there to see your son.

Follow the advice I gave you in that guide. Let her think you're letting her have her way so she lets her guard down and starts making mistakes. Then record her in all her rants.

Show the court how crazy she is.

But DON'T agree to anything in writing.

Make it clear to your attorney that he needs to start talking as if SHE is the one who gets visitation, not you. You've done nothing wrong and aren't the one who committed adultery.

Have you thought of getting a subpoena to throw OM on the stand?

Get him to talk about how he comes over to your WW's place when the kids are there.

Throw the exH on the stand.

You have a lot of ammo. Don't cave to pressure and being bullied by attorneys.

I did go to WW's apartment last night. I just could not say "no" to seeing my son. What judge will not understand this?

My son and step-son were there. They were so surprised and excited to see me. Their faces lit up and my son yelled "ERICH!!" and WW had to correct him that I was "Daddy." Step-son called me "dad" the whole night. We hugged a lot and played together for about an hour and then it was my son's bed time.

I observed that WW shares a bedroom with her daughter. WW also told me that the boys often sleep in her bed with her. The bedrooms were cramped and messy.

WW kept trying to get me to talk about some of her stuff that is at my house that she wants back. I had to repeatedly tell her that I was not going to talk about any of that in front of the kids. She proceeded to threaten me with "There are OTHER ways for me to get those items back, but it would just cost more money in attorneys fees and I thought we could talk like mature adults." I was controlled the whole time but did reply back with "I have money." Other than that, I didn't get sucked in to any arguments. It was kind of a slap in the face to her because she is flat broke. Having a job and income is one of my only advantages over her.

I told my attorney everything this morning and told him that I wanted Tuesday and Thursday overnights and a stipulation that no unrelated male stay the night at her apartment while my son is there.

Here is the email my attorney sent to hers:

[WW attorney]: According to my client he was allowed to see his son last night, but only for one hour at your client’s apartment. I know of no reason why his parenting time should be supervised. What my client is requesting on a short term basis is every Tuesday and Thursday evening, including overnight and alternate weekends from Friday at 6:00 p.m. until Monday morning when Erich would deliver [son] back either to your client or daycare. Erich is also concerned about your client’s living arrangement. She resides in a two bedroom apartment with her three children and at least on occasion her male friend. At least while [son] is there Erich would request that no adult males stay the night. Please let me know if this is agreeable and I will draft the agreement. If we can’t get this agreed upon in the next day or two please forward your response to our petition so we can go forward with Court intervention.
I have checked with [some other attorney]’s office for dates when these parties could attend mediation. Susie indicated that at least as of now, [some other attorney] has the following openings: 1/26 1:30 to 3:30; 2/3 2:30-4:30; 2/4 9-11 and 2/5 9-11. I would hope that we can choose the 1/26 of these dates so these folks can talk through at least the parenting plan ASAP. You and I can discuss whether the attorneys need to attend as well. [My attorney]

I told my attorney that in the end I would probably sign a temp agreement because I would do anything to see my son but I would have him stipulate in the agreement that I am signing under DURESS of the threat of my wife not letting me see my son unless I sign. This is kind of a catch-22 because my and her attorney will not want to have me sign a document under duress....

I felt like I was between a rock and a hard place.. If I didn't JUMP at the opportunity to see my son, she could say that I didn't want to see him very badly. I might have been able to counter with what MM said about her being unreasonable and therefore disagree to meet at her place.

I felt that if I visited her under her UNREASONABLE conditions, several things might be accomplished:
1) I demonstrated my strong desire to see my son and more importantly, let me son get to see his DADDY.
2) I demonstrated that WW's accusations of me trying to keep my son from her are completely unwarranted, if there was any doubt about that before. I didn't participate in her game of tug-o-war with my son.
3) I witnessed first hand the living conditions of my son.
4) I think overall, this will continue to help me be perceived as more reasonable than her.
5) I think that I gained some credibility with my attorney by doing as he advised. Now he seems more convinced that I am the reasonable one and she is crazy. I know I shouldn't have to prove this, but let's face it, he doesn't know either of us and now he's tasting first hand what he's up against..

Even with all of this, I consider the possibility that I may have done the wrong thing. Maybe I shouldn't have gone over there. It's such a delicate tight rope walk between being reasonable and sticking to my guns.

I think you did well, E.

I like the letter your lawyer wrote too.

Thanks! Yesterday was one of the most stressful days of my life. I felt like I had to make all of these split-second decisions without knowing what was right. I need to calm down and not be so worried about making a mistake here or there. Thanks for your input and humor!

Yeah, I was thinking it might be a good idea for you to exchange email addresses w/ MM or Pom so you can get their phone numbers and give them a ring when you need some quick advice.

But, yeah, I think you did very well yesterday.

Must have been extremely difficult to keep your emotions in check during that visit last night.

Was it decided ahead of time that you'd only get an hour w/ him?

No, in fact, she supposedly told her attorney to tell my attorney that I could take my son with me to my home for the night. So she went against what she said she would do.

One of the weirdest things about the visit was that I saw WW in a different light. I no longer have any attraction for her. I'm a little repulsed by her if anything. I actually feel sorry for her. She's in a horrible situation that she put herself in. I think she has some serious mental problems.

It was actually easy to remain calm and not argue with her because I was so distracted by and focused on the kids. I wasn't going to let her annoying questions and comments get to me-no way, now how.

Pom and MM have been so gracious in helping me out. I don't know how to repay them except to pay it forward when I've got more experience under my belt.

So how did the evening end? Once you tucked your son in bed, you just left? Or did your WW ask you to leave?

Did your son ask you to stay? Ask when he'd see you again?


Yup, that's how it works.

WW mentioned that it was kids' bed time and I agreed--I wanted the kids to go to bed at their normal bedtime too. I left on my own. I didn't get to tuck my son in. Both boys waved furiously from the inside behind the glass door as I left. That was always the custom when I would leave the house for work.

My 2-year old didn't ask me to stay, but he's still a little clueless as to what is going on I'm afraid. But step-son asked me to stay. He's like a son to me though. He is very attached to me and unfortunately, I don't have any say regarding our relationship, legally. It's one of the wicked realities of the situation.

It's just heartbreaking, E.

e,

There's opportunity in her entitlement.

Go over there again if you can and get pictures of the place.

I was thinking about the advice regarding calling CPS. It's not bad advice and not a bad move. But it would be even better to do it and catch OM over there.

I'm really sorry about your step son. That's part of what's wrong with women like your WW. They break up families, establish new ones, and then break those.

These kids would be better off with their fathers than in dealing with the constant heartbreak of losing the father figures in their lives because their mom doesn't know anything about committment, vows, and marriage.

But the secret now is to fight a smart fight. This emotional detachment on your part is good. It will help you.

There's a lot in your favor, to include an exH that is a willing witness on your behalf.

Things will likely turn out in your favor, but beware that anything can happen. Just stick to your guns about your son.

I called CPS. They said that they can't file a report unless any of the children have stated that they've been exposed to sexual or physical abuse... They said there is nothing they can do just because a man and woman are sleeping together in the same room with a child... So not much help there unless the kids speak up about something going on.

I'll followup up with ex-H tomorrow to find out if his daughter has said anything else about the sitch...

I haven't seen or spoken to my son or WW since Tuesday. I think she is ticked about the stipulations that I wanted to be added to her temp custody plan.

My Attorney scheduled the temporary custody hearing for 1/29/09. I'm going to prepare as much as possible documentation before then..

erich,

This may seem like an eternity to you, but it isn't. There's a very good chance that you will get a PL order that your son stay in the marital home.

Have your lawyer ask for it and as an alternative to that ask that a 50/50 arrangement be made. Go in with a plan (like the one I recommend).

But make your argument that you have your own room for your son and don't make him sleep with you.

Also ask for an order that the boyfriend is not to be around your son.

Finally, don't expect much out of the first hearing. It's probably a "scheduling conference" where they will have you and her attorney spend a couple of hours trying to get some sort of deal. You'll then go in and have the judge set dates for a PL hearing, mediation, as status conference, and a possible merits trial.

But it is absolutely critical that you tell your lawyer that the number one goal for the day is a PL order that your son stay in the marital home and that SHE get visitation to see your son.

Make a big stink that he has his own room at your place and that there are no other people sleeping at your house. Also have him make a stink that she hasn't let you see your son for anything other than that one hour and only under her supervision.

You HAVE to paint her as the bad guy. Don't let them do that to you. You've been doing good so far.

Just be warned that you shouldn't expect much to be accomplished on the 29th.

You're one of tons of cases they see in a day and they all have their own story.

Adultery, unfortunately, isn't a big deal in the system.

POM, What does "PL" stand for? I should probably already know that.


......THE SAGA CONTINUES......

WW hasn't returned any of my calls or emails since the Tuesday visit to her apartment to see my son. So after work last night I dropped by her apartment on the way to my house at around 7PM. When I got there, all three children were in her car with her and she was about to pull out of her parking space.

I motioned for her to roll down her window. She rolled down her window an inch and I asked her if I could have my son this weekend. She said "no" and informed me that she had just sent me an email and then she drove away.

I decided to follow her. After all, where would WW be taking all three kids at 7PM on a Friday night? I called the police to make sure it was legal for me to follow and they said it was ok. But shortly after I got off the phone with them, they called back and said that WW called them and was fearful of me following her and she said that I threatened her (which of course I did not).

The police said that I had to stop following her since WW gave me a warning about it. So I stopped following her and drove home.

I got up at 6AM to play basketball with some friends at church. The church is very close to WW's apartment so I drove by her apartment on the way. HER CAR WAS NOT THERE.

I decided to drive to OM's house to see if she had stayed the night there with OM and kids. Sure enough, her car was parked in front. I took pictures of her car in front of his house to document it.

I called the police to request them to go to OM's house to check on the kids. An officer was sent to meet me on that street. I told him the situation and he refused to go check on my kids. He said that he didn't want to get involved and that nothing illegal was going on.

Talk about sexism. A guy just can't get a break with the cops. WW gets three patrol cars and I get a loser cop who won't budge a finger to help me.

Anyway. I can't prove with my photos that the kids were in the house with WW and OM. But if they weren't with them, where were they? My gut tells me they were there. I can't think of anywhere WW could have dropped the three kids off for the night.

I called ex-H this morning and told him what had happened. I asked him to check his divorce decree to see if there is anything in there about his daughter being taken so far away and staying at another house for the night without his knowledge or permission. He is going to check on it.

Ex-H said that he was pretty sure that WW couldn't take his daughter more than 50 miles away without permission. OM lives about 30 miles away... Ex-H seemed pretty disturbed about the news. At least he can ask his daughter if she stayed at OM's house so that we'll know for sure.

I hope this helps my case. I hope the mediators and judge sees this stuff as seriously detrimental to the children.

I left a voicemail for WW telling her how it was one thing to have an affair, but to bring the kids along for her excursions is just about the lowest thing she could do. I just let her have it. I was calm and didn't swear at all, but expressed my great disappointment and said that she didn't love the children to set such a horrible example for them.

I also called her parents and left a message stating that their daughter took our kids and spent the night at another man's house and asked if they would call her...

erichh,

All of this does stink, but calm down.

Police reports over this stuff could end up biting you in the butt and YOU could be painted as the harrasser.

Remember, you're the male, and therefore the system is stacked against you.

SHE will try to portray herself as the victim on the run from a harassing man.

You have a lawyer now. Let him do the communicating. She can be put on the stand and a question can be asked of her to catch her in lies.

How is that?

Well, you ask her, "Have you ever been to OM's house with the children?"

Have you ever stayed the night at OM's house with the children?

If she lies, then you have the picture to show her car parked in front of his place, which you show to her and put into evidence.

If she tells the truth, then she fesses up.

But chill for now. You have enough to mount a pretty good case against her. Don't lose the court's sympathy by continuing to show up unnannounced.

I UNDERSTAND how you feel. Believe me, I do. I went through exactly what you went through when she moved another man into the kid's house and I knew nothing about him. Who was he? What was he doing around my kids? What was his name?

I went a little whacky for a bit until I got some answers. So I understand.

But you can't arm her with "he's harassing me", which you now have a police report saying that you were following her in your car with the kids.