I received a response back from exH. It appears that he is chickening out... But his fear of WW might make for good testimony in and of itself. Here is the response that I received via email from exH:

I am up in the air about testifing againt [WW] only because she can make my life hell because I have no way to get a Lawyer at the moment. If I go get a court summons to be a witness I will not lie about anything that I know. I want to help you but not sure how it will affect [WW] and what she will do to [my daughter] because of it. If you need anything just give me a call.

BTW, I said nothing to him about lying. I am going to respond back about that because I don't want that left unanswered. I may ask him to elaborate more about what he means about WW making his life hell and what he thinks WW might do to his daughter. I think he's probably afraid of his child support going up because WW let him off easy with only $165/month in child support. WW previously commented to me that she should never have let him off so easy and that she may one day take him to court to get more child support..

He can testify about his feelings regarding his daughter being moved around as well as his feelings about her as a mother, but he can't really say anything regarding what he things she will do.

That's speculative and will be objected to by a good attorney.

But he can certainly testify that he's concerned about his daughter's instability, the new home arrangement, the constant exposure to other men. He could make a stink about the fact that his ex is putting the kids through a parade of men. First it was him, then the next guy, now you, now a new guy.

He can express his concern over stability for his daughter.

And he can also go to cout on his own without a lawyer. There's organizations out there that will coach a man through representing himself.

I've seen what these lawyers do and it isn't hard. But it does take a coherent and organized personality to go in there and be prepared and present a convincing case.

Until things are settled...bag the Plan B letter as it would likely just be used as evidence against you. They would use the letter to demonstrate that it's HER you are after fighting for custody and not your son (i.e. that you're just after your son to get her to come back home).

One reason her attorney is likely unavailable is this matter isn't seemingly pressing for his client. He likely thinks everyday she keeps custody makes it that much harder for you to obtain it. He doesn't seem alarmed by the alienation angle...which I think he should be...but, really, it all comes down to the judge. Her attorney may know this particular judge isn't going to punish her for it, and, thus...the status quo is good for now. He likely also thinks your running around following WW, taking pictures and calling people is just aidding his defense as to why your WW just had to keep the child from you (i.e. - you are unpredictable, controlling, angry). For now...he feels safe with delay, delay, delay.

Resolution...your attorney should be more than just calling him. He should be sending letters, faxes and emails, if possible in addition to the phone calls. The greater the sense of urgency the more atrocious her alienation will appear to the judge. Her attorney needs to appear complicit and non-responsive. Can't allow him to just indicate he was busy and got back to every call within a few days. Make him appear part of the problem. Only your attorney can do this.

As far as baby daddy #1. Leave him alone for now. Your attorney will either call him or not. He's clearly indicated above that he'll likely show up and tell the truth. He'd likely be a good witness...so just put it in your back pocket for now. The more you contact him the more such contact will come out in court and make you appear obsessive.

keep on keeping on. so sorry you are enduring this.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W is an attorney, so heed his advice and thank him for the free consult.

erichh,

Have your attorney subpoena him.

Charlotte

Good point. Forget plan B for now.


Could be. Fortunately, my attorney says that he thinks it was completely understandable for me to follow WW when she had my child on-board to find out where she was taking him on the night that she said that I could have him.

He also told me to continue to email her with requests to see my son since email is very non-aggressive. He said to avoid phone calls and other communication for now.

My attorney was finally able to get mediation scheduled with other attorney for this coming Monday. Both of our attorneys will attend. Then on Wednesday is the court hearing for temp custody.


My attorney did a good job emailing other attorney. He carbon-copied me on those emails. Apparently, he's been documenting his own attempts to contact other attorney.


I'll leave him alone and do as you say. He will testify the truth if we subpoena him. And that's all I need.


Thank you for your advice! I am preparing responses to the most likely questions that I will be asked by the mediator. I will stand my ground, especially since there is a hearing for temp custody two days later.

Looks like you came up with your own good response to questions regarding following her the other night but I'll say it again...

When asked...why were you following your wife the evening of xyz or were you following her?

You say..

"not exactly....I was following her AND my son that she's not letting me see"

or

"not exactly...I was following my son that she's not letting me see, she just happened to be driving the car my son was in"

If the question was followed up with WHY?

A: I miss my son.


Your answers need to focus on your son. Let your attorney say stuff about OM and her continual exposure of the kids to OM. You can't say stuff like I followed her to see if she was going to OM's house because even if you try to indicate you don't want your son exposed to OM...the way it will sound is that you don't want your WW with OM.

Mediation is generally a waste of time...especially with an entitled wayward wife. Don't let her get under your skin at mediation. Appear to participate in the process but expect NOTHING to get accomplished. Truly prepare for court next wednesday.

A reminder for court. If your wife testifies in the proceeding she WILL lie. The judge will be watching for your reaction and they DON'T want to see angry gestures and eye rolling. Typically ww will try to paint you as some controlling unpredictible monster...thus, demonstrating a calm demeanor is the antithesis of such testimony. You just keep your eyes on the judge (unless your attorney instructs you otherwise).

Trust your attorney...he's the only friend you've got in there with the exception that the "system" is set up to get people to settle. Your lawyer WILL push you to settle. He will do this by explaining the risks and PRESUMING the risk is too great for you to take AND pay for. His experience tells him most men settle, but he fails to recognize that most men actually win when they take the matter to court. IMO, in this situation, you settle...you lose.


Another note...in negotiations...you stick to 50-50 with you getting 183 nights/year (which is important for the IRS tax deduction which goes to the parent with 50% plus one night) as being a very reasonable offer. You and your attorney indicate that she's unfit to have ANY custody and that you really don't want to fight her but you will if she won't agree to 50-50. Presuming the fight is on...I'd be going for full custody if I were you and settling for nothing less (because your son NEEDS you to)

Mr. Wondering

AGREE!! Your son needs YOU and I hope you will fight for him, Erich. Great post, MrW..


Like MrW said, it is a waste of time to "mediate" with a wayward. The court does not take into account her impaired state of mind so you are essentially negotiating with a TERRORIST.

Believe me, you will be pressured to settle. The system wants these cases to be done before you ever go to a trial. They're too full of cases so settlement clears their docket.

But this is where you have to stick to your guns. My lawyer told me that men who stuck to their guns and didn't settle for bs deals often won.

There was a point where the deal given was fairly close to acceptable for me and my situation. So I did settle instead of risking losing more time by going to trial.

BUT, that was because there were 40 miles of distance between WW and I. Had that not been the case I would have stuck to my guns about getting a minimum of 50/50.

Don't be afraid to cutoff mediation if you're only doing it with lawyers. I wasted an entire day of legal fees trying to reach a settlement with a lawyer who continued to offer bad deal after bad deal.

Their offers were so bad that I felt I couldn't do any worse by taking things to court and to the judge.

On the flip side: I made offers to her which still gave her primary, kept the kids in better schools, and would have given her more money for CS. But she was unbending. Their stance was that I give her sole physical and legal custody. That was pretty much all they stuck to.

Well, she fought on, probably encouraged by her attorney to stick to a hardline, and ended up much worse off than if she had settled for one of my offers. In a way I think 50/50 would even be better for her than what she ended up with.

But that's the confidence I gained in the system. The Master gave a fair deal and I got the impression that he system is now setup to be fair to parents. Here's a big thing to think about:

If the system has two parents in front of it that are about equal, they will give a fairly equal ruling.

So you go in there and be calm and cool. Be above the fray. Let her be the one to roll her eyes, rant and rave, etc.

You keep your message simple. I want to see my son. "My son and I" should be how you start almost all your sentences.

It's all about your son. It's not about your rights, it's about your son's rights to see his father regularly.

One thing that I think worked against my ex's attorney is that they attacked me as being untruthful when i stated that I liked the arrangement given and the time given with my kids but that I needed the funds to be able to make it a reality.

They attacked me about this as if I was insincere and I don't think that played off very well.

I didn't focus my attention on the money, which was truly secondary to my real goal of simply having the ability to live the agreement we had been given.

If you come off as being interested in the money, you'll lose.

If you come off as wanting revenge against her with your son as the prize, you'll lose.

If you come off as the parent who is more stable and has his best interests at heart and would be a better example for your son, then you have a shot of at least getting 50/50.

Keep an eye on your attorney as well. An attorney that appears to be "out to get you" or is very abrasive should raise flags. He could lose the case for you by simply being an a$$ which I believe was a factor in my case. It's not smart to get into arguments with the judge over petty stuff.

My attorney had a more laid back approach and the kid's attorney was in a league of her own, outclassing all the attorneys in the courtroom by being the best prepared, most balanced, and objecting at proper times. She never came off as having a desire to smear either parent, which wasn't the case with my ex and her attorney.

Her attorney came off as salivating at the idea of "getting me". He had banked quite a bit on being able to throw my medical records in my face and embarrass me about an incident that took place well before I even met my ex.

It backfired.

My attorney told me that her biggest losses came when she really went after the mom to attack her and smear her and they felt pretty good about their chances, but actually ended up losing the case in a major way.

I also learned that it isn't really the attorneys who win the case. It's clients who do. The client who appears more "big picture" and "above the fray" will do better than the ones who constantly roll their eyes, make faces, react in anger, and come off as being interested in their own interests than those of their kids.

This is about protecting your son's right to have a father in his life. You stay above the fray and cool and calm and you'll come off well.

Great posts here Eric. Please heed them!

To expand upon what Mr. W stated...I found a way in court to keep from making those gestures, etc that Mr. W was talking about.

I made sure I had a legal pad in front of me. On the first page was where I just kind of wrote things out...random thoughts. I drew pictures...whatever to keep from fidgeting.

The page behind that, I kept a list of things she lied about, or points I thought my attorney should know as things came up. So, I would calmly flip the first page up and then write it down. Every so often, I would slide it to my right a little, pull up the top page, and nudge my attorney to look. He would look, and then nod to me...or make a note next to it, asking me to elaborate.

To the judge, I looked no different when I was drawing, than when I was writing these things down. One demeanor. At the same time, on several occasions, I gave intel to my attorney that he acted on right there...catching her in misstatements twice in front of the judge.

You see, once credability is lost, it is tough to get back. Your attorney will try to make her look uncreditable (her attorney will with you also!). He will lay traps for her, with the intel you have given. Her attorney will also. Which is one of the big reasons to document everything! In that way, when she accuses you of this or that (her attorney actually), you have a rebuttal that isnt you saying "no I didnt."

Which is why I spent countless hours trying to think of what even insignificant thing she might remember of might have on me...and have intel and a response for it.

Sure, I was caught be surprise on a few questions. Everyone is, as you cant think of EVERYTHING. But in that case, you need to respond to it in the same way you responded to the questions you were prepared for.

For example, when asked "what is your name?", you respond calmly: "Eric BetrayedSpouse." But later, when her attorney asks "I heard that you stopped beating your wife last year, is that true?"...most guys would then sit up in their seat, their voice would be raised and and indignant "I have never beaten my wife" would be thrust out of their mouth.

That isnt the way to do it. You need to respond in the same way as you did when you answered the question about your name. Sure, it is okay to be indignant to questions that are patently false! But, you have to keep your emotions in check.

Another thing. Did you see the "no win" that her attorney gave you in the question I asked above? The example was "I heard that you stopped beating your wife last year, is that true?" Well, that is a trap! Very similar to the traps attorneys set all of the time! If you say "yes" to the answer, then yo uare technically admitting that you did beat your wife but have stopped. If you say "no" to the question, then you have technically admitted that you have not stopped beating your wife.

Either a Yes or a NO will then lead to the attorney springing the trap, and begin a series of what I call "beratements" where he tries to get you off kilter. He will begin a rapid fire set of questions and statements, meant to get you uncomfortable and to make mistakes. Something like this (let's say you said "yes"):

Her attorney (HA): "So, you did stop beating your wife. When exactly did you stop?"

You: "I never beat my wife!!!"

HA: "Wait a minute, just a second ago, you said you had stopped beating your wife. Now you you say that you didnt beat your wife. Which is it?"

You: "I never said I beat my wife. I said..."

HA interrupts you: "I can have the court reporter read it back, you said that you had stopped beating your wife, which means that you had been before. This court is now searching for the answer on when you stopped beating Mrs. Eric. We would liek an answer to that question."

I will stop here, as you can see where this was leading (I should have gone to law school!). What her attorney wil ltry to do is to step up the tempo and get you off guard so you will make mistakes.

The first way I avoided this was I told myself that I would, silently, count to four before answering ANY question...even from my own attorney.

Second, if I was unsure of what was asked, or thought I was being trapped, I would ask her attorney to repeat the question...giving me a chance to calm down a little and prepare for the answer.

Then, once the question was repeated, I would say calmly: "Thank you. My answer to your question is that I have never beaten my wife."

This is why you need to prepare mentally. When something doesnt go right, or her attorney cuts you off before you can give the answer that best defends you, dont try to push it in or interrupt. Your attorney will cross-direct...which will give you a chance to respond in the way you wanted to.

Hopefully, we can all prepare you for Wednesday (as the folks said above...Monday is worthless...just make sure you dont lose your cool there). Keep asking questions!

Some great info here from MrW and MM!! I am reading along. Fortunately for me I am on offense not defense.....but still good advice.

Wow! Your information and advice has been PRICELESS. Thank you so much for taking the time to help prepare me for next week. I will re-read your posts and I am going to role-play with myself to get prepared mentally.

****UPDATE****

WW emailed me last night (I didn't get the email until this morning at work) stating that she is no longer asking me to sign a temporary custody agreement. She just wants to know know if I will have my son over tonight from 6pm-8pm and this weekend, Friday at 7pm through Sunday at 7pm.

Should I stick to my guns and reply back with "I would love to have my son tonight from 6PM through tomorrow morning at 9am and Friday at 7pm through Monday at 9am?"

I think she is getting worried now about how she will look in court so she is quickly trying to give me some time with our son. I feel like I should push for the time that I want because I think she feels pressure but I don't want to look like I am turning down time with my son.

What think ye, wise ones?

I dont see a problem with your counter offer, Eric. Make sure you forward to your attorney though!

erichh,

I'll happily give you a practice grilling by an attorney. I was trained as an interrogator many years ago when I was going to be an instructor at SERE school. What lawyers do is very similar.

The way of dealing with them is similar as with interrogations.

I can help coach you on how to answer truthfully and in a way that will prepare you for the types of traps that lawyers like to throw.

It would help if you posted here what "dirt" she may have on you and may try to use, including any false allegations.

The secret to a lot of refuting many of these allegations is to be dismissive of them without emotion.

I was very angry at my ex's accusations and responded aggressively when I had to, so much so that they were never brough up at trial since she knew her accusations were flat out false.

But I was prepared to answer them if they did come up.

But you have to be prepared for the kinds of traps they try to get you with.

Lawyers try to get you to admit to things, but the secret is to make them be specific.

For example:

"Have you ever failed to follow any of the advice given to you by your daughter's therapist?"

My answer:

"Could you be more specific?"

He simply repeated the question again, and said it was a simple question.

He wanted me to hang myself.

Well, I'm a bit smarter than that. So I simply answered, "That's a pretty general question. Do you have anything more specific? To my knowledge I've followed the advice given to the best of my ability. I can't think of an instance where I didn't."

He stuck to the questioning, but I stuck to my answer. It's a delicate dance.

But the secret is to not do his job for him.

You have to see the traps and know that he's leading you down a path to try to trap you into answers.

Another thing to keep in mind: They have the burden of proof on accusations. So don't do their job for them.

I'll explain that more offline than here. Can't show my cards too much here since I don't know if I'll ever face Mr. Incompetent DWHNACG again.

But my services are at your disposal.

I think she's made some plans and she's looking for a free babysitter, that's all.

Hey erichh

MiM is probably correct that WW is looking for a babysitter. Didn't you mention that OM kids were gone this past weekend so he'll have them this coming weekend? Probably too cramped to have all the kids in his apt at once.

Either way I'd take her up on her offer to see your son. It would look kind of weird that you've been demanding time with your son only to turn around and decline when given the opportunity. Do not talk to WW about the temp. custody agreement. She is banking on you getting all mushy at her generous offer :RollieEyes: and wants you to drop the custody issue. Do not engage in any conversation with her about it at all. If she wants to assume you'll drop it, let her.

WW was always willing to let me have my son Tuesday and Thursday from 6pm to 8pm and every other weekend from Friday at 7:30pm to Sunday at 7:30pm.... So this isn't anything more than she was originally willing to give me except that now it seems magnanamous because I haven't seem him for 3.5 weeks except for one time for an hour...

I'm confused or maybe just not update with the visitation. She's been willing do this all along but you've only seen DS for an hour in the past month? Was this her custody offer but she didn't follow through with it or did you decline?

Ask your lawyer if you can simply keep your son. It's the marital home and you are still married and there is no visitation agreement and you feel that's where he belongs anyways.

You feel it's in his best interests to stay in the marital home and have his own room and WW can have visitation.

Make daycare arrangements and keep them secret from her. If she throws a fit, you can say that he is being cared for and that she's welcome to visit with her son on the nights she has offered you to do so.

BUT....

Run it by your lawyer. You have every right to do what I describe here and can argue that it is in your son's best interest, especially after learning that she's sleeping in the same room with the man and the kids as well as taking your son to this man's house.

Have you run a backround check on the guy?

You can do it if you have an address, or a license plate number, or a name.

I'd do it. Anything on his record should be justification enough to protect your son.

She would only let me have the Tues, Thurs, every other weekend visitation if I signed a temp custody agreement which I would not sign so she wouldn't let me see my son at all.

Except I did get to see him when her attorney pressured her into letting me see him but it was at her apartment for only about an our over a week ago..