That kind of thinking is a set up to avoid ever making changes. Since it is impossible to change someone against their will, that goal ensures that no action is ever taken. A conflict avoiders dream..

No.

I was debating whether to jump all in or sit back and see if she is sincere. If I knew she was sincere, I would not have any problem jumping all in. This is why I resisted for quite some time about bringing up divorce. Now that that is out there, it makes it difficult to determine if she is sincere.

After 5 years where do you start?

With someone else!!!

Can you change a difficult cat? ( I really love that term you use!)

Difficult Cats and Cheating Wives

How do you change a difficult cat
Give it treats and a catnip mat

Once you love a cat that's bad
You own them and they make you mad

Life is full of cats that scratch
Wives that cheat on you, a good catch

See what is and what is NOT.
Look very carefully at WHAT YOU GOT.

Cats won't change for you..no way
Wives won't change, for even one day...

Cats are selfish and do what they want
Wives who cheat are made to PUNT

You can live with a difficult cat
A cheating wife will drain you flat

Furniture be ruined by a difficult cat
Your heart be broken by being a doormat

Cats are easy to contain
Cheater wives you must distain

Feed a cat they will give you something
Feed a cheater wife she will take everything

Keep these cats who will destroy
Dump a wife who wants a boy toy

Do you want a cat in five years time?
Do you want a wife who crosses that line?

Can you see how great you are?
Find a woman who is a star

Will you keep them in a box?
Will you keep them with a fox?

I do not like them Stellacat.
I do not like them, and that is that!

Typical.

The long wait is over.

The actuality is never quite as good as the anticipation.


You are tired.

And it’s scary.


So,

Date her.

Maybe try dialogues. Write all this down and talk to her about it (in bite sized chunks) using I feel statements.

Give her this thread to read?

You need to pulse the circuit to see what it does. It’s called System Identification. You stimulated her circuits with the divorce statement and got an identifiable reaction. Now hit it with an impulse function – talk about what you need, what you need right now and forever. And can she provide it, finally?

Ask her.

Write it down.


You have nothing to loose except the anticipation.

rpynne,


How will you ever know if you are safe to begin to invest in your marriage again? All human interactions involve a certain amount of risk. You seem to be a rational man. Try to look objectively at your situation. Take a pencil and divide a sheet of paper lengthwise. Make a list of the highs and lows of your marriage. See which side is longer.

Show your list to your best friend, your brother/sister, your mother/father. Observe their reaction. Ask what they would do in such a situation. If you would be too embarrassed to show someone else such a list, then that is something that you may want to weigh heavily.

I understand that the person least invested in the marriage actually holds most of the power. But if you stay uninvested that may be a Pyrrhic victory. You may not be hurt is she decides to cheat again, but the chances of you finding a loving marriage holding it at arm's length is probably pretty small.

rprynne,

I have always enjoyed your posts because they made me think about my own M and relationships in general. You sound like such a nice person. I've seen you tell other BS's to set the bar high when taking a WS back but I don't see you doing it. Granted there may be all sorts of details I don't know, but from what you have said, you were lonely and WW came back once the D card was thrown out. Where is the bar set? Has WW agreed to your term, whatever they are? Did you have any terms? Is she remorseful, sorry, etc.?

Really? Now that does sound like something Margie would say.

I use the term "level jumping". Look at anything from a high enough level and nothing ever changes. Its the equivalent of painting your walls a new color and then saying nothing in the room has changed because the walls are still painted.

But if your point is my M is still crap. Got it.

5 years ago, my WW had moved all of her stuff out and was living in OM's condo in TX. Now she's not. So while my M may still be crap, some things have changed.

Agree.

This worries me and I'll tell you why...Anytime that I see a BH here essentially asking the question, "Is my WW now a FWW?", I always know that she is NOT...Because there would be NO NEED to question it if she were...You would know...Someone that is really onboard would be telling you AND backing it up with ACTIONS...I know you have the "action" of her moving home, but what else? Is there genuine sorrow and remorse? Is she saying things like, "OMG, I can't believe what I have put you through?" Does she get it at all, rprynne? Is it cold and clinical?

Just trying to get a clear picture...

Mrs. W

*[just stopping the affair w/ OM does NOT make someone a FWW]*

I agree with what you are saying. I won't really ever know unless I test it out.


All evidence to the contrary, right?

The bar is low. But it was set low out of indifference, if that makes any sense. (sense as in KWIM, not was it right to do).

I am trying to follow some of my own advice.


Yes. She is remorseful.

I am saying your decision making process is CRAP, it is non existant, which is why you live in a state of limbo at the mercy and whim of a utterly non committed wayward.

Can I make a suggestion? Do something, dammit.

Both of you jump in with both feet and try to fix your marriage with everything you have by going to a MB weekend. If nothing is better in 3 months, then get a divorce.

But please, do something, dammit.

I think I deserve better. For me, I just think there is a right way to do things and you do your best to do that. Sometimes it sucks along the way.

What is KWIM?

rprynne,

Let me start this comment with a quote.
I would say based on your comments you are "indifferent". You don't care if she stays or she goes. You are not inlove with this woman.

Your real question is "Should I try and rebuild the love and thus the marriage?"

Normally, most of us would say definitely.

But, this is not a normal situation. It is a situation where your W had no problem being separated from you for almost 4 years. She had no problem having affairs or was it one long affair? She really did not want to come back to you other than she felt she would lose "something" no one knows what that is if you two divorced.

Now I don't know much, but I do know this. IF she does not change her thinking, if she does not change her perspective, you are NOT taking any risk by taking her back. Risk implies that there are several possible outcomes, one of which you might like. IN this case you can be CERTAIN that she will leave or have another affair, or both. None of those outcomes warrents any effort on your part. Right? None of those outcomes is what you want.

So unless she comes to you and explains what her plans are, what has changed in both her perspectives and goals for life, you are very very foolish not to divorce her and move on. Her quiting her job is not an indication of change. She can get another one and head off again.

I asked earlier if you had asked her about her plans, and you responded with something along the lines that you felt you would be making an effort for the marriage to do so. I contend you asking is simply confirming what you really ought to be doing. Planning on leaving UNLESS she has changed. Even if she has, I would recommend that you leave, but I am not running your life.

rprynne, you don't have to engage in marriage building, but you MUST engage in information gathering, so that you can make the best decision for you. You are running around blind right now, and I believe that is the source of your ambivalence right now. Gather data, and I think things will become very clear to you.

God Bless,

JL

Know What I Mean?

Mrs. W

Thanks Mrs W.


r,

Agree with jl 100%. Give it some thought and take care.

Yes, there is genuine sorrow and remorse. But no, she is not saying things like that. It is not her way.

I think she gets it. It is not cold and clinical, it is fearful.

Without getting too long winded, my FWW thinks the answer to recovery is just keep me happy. So while she may be sorry, she isn't going to bring that up because that will "ruin my mood."

I'll try to explain more of what I mean by sincere. When my WW and I filled out the EN questionaire, the first time, she lied on it. She didn't list what her most important needs were, she listed what she thought I would be okay with as her most important EN's. So when I say sincere, I don't want to bother filling them out again if she is just going to try and guess what I what to see and put that in there.

She ranked conversation very low. Yet, spent a whole year without seeing OM, but just talking on the phone. So, I can only conclude she doesn't like conversation with me. But rather than tell me that, (because it would hurt my feelings), a better answer was to keep talking to OM.

So by sincere, I mean if she isn't going to change that logic, its a waste of time.