Not at all. You had asked if I stay because perhaps deep down I am afraid of being alone. I had asked SH about this and his answer (which I probably only partially agree with) is a bit reversed.

For the most part, I was already alone. Said another way, for most people, a separation would be a dramatic shift or change in their life. For me, it was not that big a change, (at least compared to say the last 8 or so years of my M) because my FWW were seldom together anyway.

Fear is probably too strong a word, but what I sense for myself at least, is first, I realize I do not want to "die" alone, so if that means fear of being alone, then so be it. I've always viewed it as valuing having a partner. Second, I really don't want to "court" anyone again. Meaning, I don't want to have to go through all those little things you have to do in the process of finding a partner.

Not sure if this makes any sense, but that would be a closer description of my "fears".

Like what "little things" rprynne?

You do know that "courting" your spouse is how you remain in love, right?

Mrs. W

Yes. What you have described is very much my state of mind.


Yes.


I really don't know yet.


To me, what made it a sham was that what we had in the M was very much what she asked for. But she claims she was only asking for things that she thought I was willing to provide and thus she was being forced to sacrifice. My FWW presented to me that she wanted a M that was more like a business partnership, than an intimate M. She did not care about conversation, or affection, or gifts, etc. That she was just not into "romantic" stuff. Then she runs off and "falls in love." When I asked why, all those things she did not want became her "sacrifices"

Yes, there was a lack of intimacy. If you mean SF, no, that was not the problem. Like most men here, I would like more SF, but I don't think the amount of SF was as low as some of the "worst" cases we've seen around here.

But the intimacy has not been there for any of our M. And it was her choice.

Some might read that and say, poor guy. But that's not correct. I was fine with how our marriage was. I was not out there yearning for something more in my M and just suffering through. But apparently she was.

So now that she is back, I want to see that she realizes that.


It was six years ago.


I really don't right now.


Yes. But it is also more than that. Can't always describe it, but its around just being more self-aware and proactive.

Thanks. I have always liked you too.


I agree with the above and the rest of your post. I am not letting up, but must confess it is not my "comfort zone".


Defense!!!


Thanks. Hope things are going well for you.

For the most part, I do.

Awwwww, you guys, this is a very sweet "Bromance"!

Sorry, I just sooooooooooooo couldn't resist that!


"DEFENSE! - Hold 'em! DEFENSE! - Push 'em! DEFENSE! - Hold 'em real tight!"

Whoa, I just had a cheerleader flashback - with motions and everything!

Mrs. W

I know. I don't like it, but I know.


I did. She agreed to do the work. That was before I left town, so we'll have to see.


Thanks.

I just mean I have no desire to go through all those things that are involved. Meet the parents, reveal embarrassing details about yourself, etc.

Its BTDT thing.


I know.

Just giving the man his "props"


Take it easy. I would hate for Mr. W to come home and find you have back flipped yourself into a broken neck.

Hey rprynne! Its been awhile since my last visit, been awhile since your last post to this thread too it seems.

Its a bit scary, but I've always felt like I understood you in some way and your thoughts have helped me in the past and I appreciate that.

So I'm going to offer my thoughts to you about your sitch.

I think your WW quitting her job and coming back after an ultimatum of divorce is by and large not much different than the way most infidelity ends and recovery begins. You enforced a boundary, your WW made a choice. If anything, I think that should show you that you DO have power to affect change in the realationship. No, her coming back to keep you from leaving isn't how you wanted her to return. But realize that you are also contradicting your own claims of ambivalence. You wanted her to return a certain way, that isn't ambivalent. She didn't return that way, she returned another way. Oh well. Of all the the injuries you've suffered along the way, this one seems pretty minor. It might sting the most because its the freshest wound, but surely a pragmatist like yourself recognizes that this wound will also heal.

One thing I find interesting about your M (or lack of one) is that for whatever reason, you hung in there, and for whatever reason, your WW has come back. It wasn't because of kids, it wasn't because of money, it wasn't because of an exceptional working of MB plans, etc. If anything, you and your WW have demonstrated to each other beyond any doubt that you do not NEED each other. What you're trying to decide is if you WANT each other, which seems like a pretty reasonable question to me.

I don't think you're going to get the answers to your questions without being willing to put forth some effort and exposing yourself to some risk. I would think that at this point your should WELCOME that, because doing so should result in some closure for you, one way or the other.

I think you need to find some way to determine what your WW wants in a marriage, and you need to be very honest with yourself about what YOU want in a marriage. This is complicated by the fact that you don't trust that your WW will tell you the truth and that she tends to try to tell you what she thinks you want to hear. This I think is conflict avoidance by both of you.

I guess what I would suggest is that you attempt is just a back to basics, clear the air conversation based NOT on the past, but on the potential of a future. Just lay it all out there. I envision something like a "Look WW, I'm here, you're here, after all that has happened, I think we owe it to each other and to ourselves to find out if this can truly work, if this is really worth both of us putting in the effort to try to fix this."

It seems overly simplistic, but really I think it is that simple. In order to start pondering any type of recovery, I think you both have to know that you WANT to recover, and I think you both have to accept that it is going to require you both to step out of ambivalence and WORK at it.

In some respects I think both of you have done a little of this. You finally made the decision that things were either going to change or you were done. Your W made the decision to quit her job and move home. So that's a step. What the next step? I think first is an agreement to honesty in undertaking the next steps. An honest Emotional Needs questionairre seems like a reasonable first step. I think an honest discussion of boundaries going forward is another.

I think you have to find a way to reach the pragmatist within your WW and get her to buy into the fact that at this point anything but total honesty is not in her best interest either.

I think you just have to jump in a bit more rprynne. There is NO reason now for you to fear rocking the boat. LEAD this in the direction you need it to go. You pushed, and she responded. Keep pushing.

Tyk

Hi Tyk. Hope things are going well. You need to give us an update.


Ditto.


Yep, I understand and agree. I'll get through it. I can't really express it, but I guess I just prefer to be wanted as opposed to being feared lost.


It does.


Pretty much over the last month, I have worked through this. I am engaging on things and have put aside my concerns over being exposed to more damage.


We did fill out the ENQ.


I agree with this. I think she is at a place where she understands this.


I agree and then I disagree. As sort of said above, I needed to engage more and I have. But I just don't think I should lead this.

Over the last few weeks, I have a better read on things. She has been home long enough that this is not just another "trick", so that has helped. We have talked several times about things. The best way I can put it is that she understands what needs to happen. But there seems to be a couple of problems, that all sort of roll up into what appears to be sort of a "how 'bout we just go back to the way things were" approach. She knows that won't work, but then keeps looking to me to figure out some way around it. But the answer always comes back to she is just going to have to actually do what needs to be done.

As an example, she needs to come clean about the past. But then she will come to me and ask me what I want to know or ask that I come up with a list of questions. Well, that isn't going to work. It just becomes an interrogation with a hostile witness. IMHO, she needs to take the lead on this.

So, I'll just keep plugging along. I agree with much of what you said and really appreciate the advice.

I really struggled getting what I needed out of WW in that regard too. She lied to me months after D-Day and I was honestly closer to plan D after that than I was as a result of the A. Not that I viewed the lie as a more serious offense, but another lie on top of everything else, that far into recovery was not what I was looking for. Anyhow. ..

This kind of reminds me of the advice you were giving me when I was wanting my WW to sincerely apologize without me telling her to or coaching her. You may want to go back and read your advice to me, because I think it was sound. You probably can't wait for her to figure out a way to satisfy you in this regard. She needs to commit to answering whatever you want to know truthfully, and I think you need to agree to try to minimize the feeling of it being an interrogation.

This might be an idea for you: do it in writing instead of verbally? You write down what you want to know, and she responds. This might have the effect of slowing things down, letting her answer the question fully without you jumping on something and getting off target? It also will allow you to perhaps winnow your questions down to what you really want and need to know?

Glad to hear some progress is being made rprynne. I know that in my case it took a few months and a couple different tries and finally another ultimatum from me before my WW truly got on board and started participating in our recovery.

Its a bit "unsporting" to throw someone's own advice back at them, don't you think?

Seriously though, you're right. I started to do this, but surprisingly, I am at a loss as to what I want to know.

I know I would like to know how things ended, but aside from that, their aren't too many details I do not know.

I'll need to think on it some more, but I think it is not so much about details, but how they are presented. It needs to be a narrative, not a listing of facts. I'm not sure if that makes much sense to anyone.

I would just like to say to my FWW, "Just tell me the story." But I really feel if I do that, I'm going to at best get a "I was unhappy, I met this OM, I went out, etc." or at worst I'm going to get "What would you like to know?"

I wish there was a simple concise way to state what I want to know.

I know exactly what you mean. I still am not satisfied that I know everything, but I think I probably know everything I need to know. Knowing and understanding are two different things though, and I still don't understand everything. However, I don't feel the same drive to try to understand it as I once did. I used to be consumed with it, now, it is an exceptionally bad time when I let myself get drug back into the wallow. It still happens some, but not as often, not as intense.

In the meantime, while you try to figure out what it is you want to know, just to fill the time you should be striving to build a marriage with your W. You said that your W has trouble buying into the idea that feelings follow actions. Perhaps you have trouble with that as well?

I just don't think there's much to be gained from sitting around waiting to "feel like" reconnecting and rebuilding. Start doing the things that lead to place you think you'd like to be, and in the process, you'll discover where you want to be. ACT, and then see how you feel. ACT and see how your W feels. If its not working and not adding up, well, that will be part of your answer, right?

Just to provide an update.

Over the last month, things have being going pretty good. I guess I'm finally starting to get comfortable with the fact that my FWW is actually home. I think the constant thought that somehow this was another "trick" was weighing on my mind more than I had realized.

Anyway, her being home has given me the motivation to take a more active role in things, so I am trying to re-learn some of the MB stuff and put it into practice. The only real bump has been that our MC all of sudden retired, so we are a bit on our own, as I don't think either of us really want to start up with new MC.

My FWW has been slowly starting to take the lead on some things. Recently, she actually brought up some R talk, which may not seem like much, but.... She has been willing to try whatever I've suggested might help me and has followed through with actions. She has not been the least bit resentful about it. She has been making changes that I've noticed. She says she has been getting advice on another web site forum, but I don't know which one.

I'm still struggling with some things. Mostly, I struggle with being O&H. I tell her I'm fine, when it is not always true. But I know that's a mistake, so I'm working on it.

She is being O&H for the most part. The only thing I worry about is that she never has any complaints. Never anything I could do for her or improve on.

One thing I was hoping some may have some advice on. My FWW sort of made a separate life out of her A. New job, new friends, etc. Now that she's back, I can tell she's feeling like she has no life, since she had to give all that up. She mentioned that to me and I didn't really know what to say. I basically said it was hard for me to comment because the last time she made new friends, etc., it didn't work out so good for me. Any advice on what I should have said or should do?