Yet your comments are 2x4ing tully not WH. WH's words are hurtful enough so I'm not sure what the point of bashing them over her head is for.


A wayward, ANY wayward.

Thank you all. I am heartsick and so deeply upset right now. I keep thinking of the girls, of all the big days in their lives to come that will be tarnished by the fact that their two parents are not side by side to be proud of them on their graduation, to admire and love them on their wedding days, to marvel at the birth of their grandchildren. I feel so low and sad for them.

I've made those edits, BR. Thanks so much for everything. You are lovely.

I just wanted to explain what WH mentioned about me being 'fanatic' and how 2 friends mentioned this. He is referring to my involvement in local politics. During 2007 I organised several conferences on the environment in our community; climate change, food choices, waste disposal etc. In October 2007 I was asked to join a team of 15 to go for election against the existing elected people in place. I accepted, stating clearly that my involvement was for environmental reasons but others in the team had issues with the current team and their management of funds etc. The election took place in March 2008 and none of us were elected but of the 15 opponents I got the most votes. Some people felt that I was too strong in my views (which are that we are heading into an environmental catastrophe if we don't make significant changes to the way we live) but many others agree with me. WH is using the views of these two people (one of whom I don't agree with - he works in the car industry) to justify the way he treated me. BTW he didn't even vote for me as he never bothered to transfer his vote to our village despite me asking him to do so several times.

You are right Barbiecat but I can't back out now or it will look back for me but I'll keep it short.

Got to run. Thanks again.

Tully, I'm not sure what you mean by tarnished? Won't they still have two parents who love them and will be there on the sidelines - if not side by side - to cheer them on through these milestones? Understandably so, I think you are feeling low and sad for you. I've worn both hats: a product of divorce and a divorcee with kids. My mother became a shadow of herself after my dad left and wanted (subconsciously?) all of us kids to be as sad as she was, but thankfully, we rose above that and had a GREAT relationship with our father. I have given my kids this same gift, and they too adore their dad without the weight of my baggage. Your children's experiences will be as good or as bad as you and their dad allow them to be.

Angie -- I totally understand what Tully is saying because I feel the same way and so do my kids. Dads who leave their kids for an affair partner -- who abandon their wives and children for someone else -- can damage parent-child relationships forever

I say this because I've talked to a several adults this past year who were children when their dads did the same thing. In every case (5), the adult told me that they NEVER had a healthy relationship with their dads again. Several did not speak to their dad until they were adults -- and only then when "dad" was down on his luck or having health issues.

I know Tully's children are young, but they are being brought up by a fabulous mother who is their moral compass.

My children are teenagers and have mentioned WH not being included in their birthdays, graduations and weddings. I know they may change their minds by then, but they (without my influence) feel that he does not deserve being a part of these milestones.

Sadly, DS will graduate from high school in 4 months and since D will be in process, I will not include WH in graduation celebrations. Even tomorrow, when all 3 of my kids attend the high school formal, WH has no idea that they are attending, who their dates are, what his DDs are wearing, etc. He's been too busy partying with OW instead of checking in on his kids. Day 27 and he has yet to visit his kids.

They will remember him CHOOSING to be excluded from our family.

Tully i give you credit. If there were not people out there like you to help, our world would be ruined. Well, it is on the way to ruin now. Thank you for helping and don't ever give up helping our earth.

What a jerk.

;

I can't see that it's much help to Tully to rubbish her husband. After all, she's been with him for almost two decades, conceived five babies with him, shared a life with him. To imply that he's nothing but a selfish egotist is not going to make her feel better about herself - ultimately, it will do the opposite.

For one thing, to dismiss his concern for the girls as nothing but a selfish want is not realistic. Yes, much of what he says is about how much misery HE'S feeling without them, and it IS selfish, but don't ignore the fact that he's also concerned that their lives have been rudely disrupted by being transplanted to another country without warning. In this, I'm inclined to agree with him, and I've made that clear to Tully. I think his love and concern for them is genuine, and I haven't seen anything from Tully herself to suggest otherwise.

No, he doesn't see the need for absolute NC. Well, let's remind ourselves that he's French - a culture where it tends to be tacitly accepted that spouses in later marriage may have discreet 'companions' while keeping the marriage together. He's doubtless seen lots of marriages where an affair is either ignored or 'got past' by pretending that nothing important happened. Perhaps that kind of marriage seems acceptable to him, and would be acceptable to many of his French friends and colleagues. In that case, this is about a clash of cultural expectations, and may not be resolvable without a HUGE shift in his view of relationships.

His reluctance to engage with Steve Harley is unfortunate, but it is understandable. MB comes at the infidelity problem from the viewpoint of America; it's an American site, hosted by an American family business and based on American relationship culture. Whether we like it or not, American cultural norms are not necessarily what pertains in other places, and this can diffuse the effectiveness of MB concepts. For example, exposure - a great MB tool - depends on those exposed to reacting in a shocked or contemptuous way, and on the WS feeling shamed. In a culture where infidelity is relatively accepted, exposure may engender more of a shrugged-shoulder, tolerant reaction, and have far less effect on the WS than it would in the US. Steve wouldn't be able to rely on a basic cultural assumption that the marriage should meet intimate needs on an exclusive basis. Tully's WH may well pay lip service to that ideal, while being entirely familiar with a different way of living.

This WH comes across as being something of a narcissistic, self-absorbed human being, but that doesn't mean that everything he feels and thinks is rubbish. Working to see this situation objectively helps Tully better in the long run.

TA

Your wisdom is appreciated. I was being short sighted.

I will leave my post up to show WHAT NOT TO POST but again, I know you are right and understand the situation better than me.

Thanks, sorry if I hurt Tully...

Something to reach at common ground is WH's description of the M before the A. To rebuild the old relationship into a new one does NOT mean only the WH has to change, and I think he wrote about some clear problems he had with the M and your behavior pre-A.

What are you doing to change these behaviors? How are you becoming a better person?

If not for him, then for yourself.

You never talk about a Plan A? Did you commit to one? Did you try to change all those LB's and try to meet his EN's?

I also have to say that when I read tully's WH's post, I saw some statements that were loving and not final. I just get the sense he just does not know what to do...
Thinking of you today, tully!

deleted

BR, that was HOURS ago. I said I was sorry. I said I was not viewing it correctly. I said they could use my posts as "what NOT to post". I learned NOT to post things like this again and I won't do it again.

Do you want me to erase them all? (I will)

One thing I do not understand is why I am crushing Tully. Can you enlighten me? So I dont do it again.

Tully,

I don't think I said, but I found WH's letter encouraging, if for no other reason than he still just sounds so standardly wayward.

I also agree he isn't done, not by a long shot.

To Everyone,

As my log-in name suggests, I am not completly impartial to this thread. Tully is my sister and I am very saddened by the last few days developments. I have heard her despair and sorrow, in particular over the last few days, and it heart wrenching!

However,I know that Tully has found great comfort from the friends that she has made on this web site - people who have taken time out of their own lives to try and help her, through their own very painful experiences. Although all her sisters are very close to Tully (because she is a wonderful supportive sister!), we struggled to give her advice on how to deal with this issue...............hence your role - and Thank You for taking it on!!

I have known WH for 20 years and lived with him and Tully for 3 years while at college (Rent-free - Thank You Tully!). Prior to the A, I can honestly say that he was a great husband,father and brother-in-law. However I do not know the person who has now taken over his body - he is virtually unrecognisable.

I suppose I just wanted you to know that - he has changed but Tully is, as she always was - intelligent, loyal, supportive, beautiful, principled and a fantastic mother and sister!

Thank you so much for helping my sister - and don't go too hard on the posts that are written in anger - I have said and regretted much much more!!

J

Hi Tully's sister!! So great to hear from you! If you are the sister that was injured in the car accident recently then I hope your recovery is going well! Tully is lucky to have such a great family as a support system during these trying times.

Tully - As usual, Neak never wavers. While I found your WH's emails overall pretty horrible, I did also get the sense as others have that this is long from over for him. I think he is lashing out at you now because of the 'gross injustice' that he believes you have perpetrated on him (taking the girls to Ireland). We know that is ridiculous and that he has brought everything upon himself but in his wayward mindset he doesn't see things that way. The one thing that bothered me more then anything is his cavalier attitude towards the A and that you should be able to just put it behind you. Have you ever asked him how he would feel if you were sleeping with another man? And, after ending it how he would feel if you were to see this man at out-of-town conferences in the future? Surely, he can see how utterly ridiculous this is can he not? Maybe he can't due to the fog......

Anyway, don't give up hope Tully. Your girls are so lucky to have such a strong mother with such a great set of morals and values. Keep being there for them. I don't think this is really over unless you decide you want it to be. And if you do, we will all support that decision.

How did today's meeting go?

Mindshare

Hear Hear!!!!

Hi Sis! Welcome to MB - you have an awesome sister! Come hang out any time.

I have been known to be wrong, even more than once lol, but I suspect that reality is only just beginning to set in for WH. No telling how long it might take for reality to finish setting in, but sooner or later it's coming.

You can really help Tully by keeping her spirits up to stay the course. 99 to one this affair is going to end. Nice to meet you!

Tully, i saw a show tonight on global warming and I thought of you. Please whatever you do keep your passion for helping our earth. If you lived near me I would be fighting that cause with you!

Dont lose that important goal!