Thanks, Mark.

A few observations on your observations, just for the sake of discussion, not to take issue with you on anything you said...Plus, I'm nervous about tonight and what my wife's reaction to the movie will be, so I need to get some of this off my chest.

The fact it took those women seeing the doctor with his wedding ring actually makes my point. Why did it take that scene for them to see what was going on? Catherine was still married for goodness sake! Not mocking your post here, but how about "OMG! SHE has a HUSBAND that SHE is CHEATING ON..." Not to mention Catherine's friends in the movie were toxic.

She was having an affair and women in your church group were rooting for her!!??

WT*?

This forum is littered with betrayed spouses who are victims of this mentality: If you have an abusive husband (real or perceived), no one will fault you for screwing someone else before you divorce him, because after all you deserve to be happy and he deserves to be betrayed and crapped on.

About the movie's plot being centered on Caleb's journey - that bothers me, too. Why couldn't it have been about both their journeys? It wouldn't have been too difficult to show her repenting and asking forgiveness for her infidelity. Why leave it open to interpretation? I don't think I'm nitpicking. It's a glaring omission by the producers, in my view.

I understand, if not perfectly living out, your point about only being able to change yourself. The movie displayed that truth perfectly. That is one of the hardest lessons I've tried to learn.

Oh, well. I guess we'll find out tonight and the days following how my wife sees it.

Thanks again, Mark, for taking the time to give me your perspective.

Up to that point I think for some it was only a movie and they (the wives) could identify with Catherine in a lot of ways. I think this is pretty normal reaction for most people when they identify with a character in a movie. Also keep in mind that the majority of people that attended last night were not members of our church at all and in fact most were probably unchurched.

But when they discovered the doctor had a wife... :MrEEk:

Suddenly they identified with the wife more than with Catherine and he was no longer the night in shining armor nor merely a friend providing support or a diversion. He became the snake he really was all along.

I would bet that many would have had a far different opinion earlier on if Catherine had been meeting him at a motel after work on the days Caleb had to work.


But that would have been a very different movie. The movie itself IS about Caleb's journey and about what he did to improve himself. If it had been a MB movie it could have talked about the EA and all the rest, but because it really was about the 40 Day Love dare and not about infidelity per se, it really couldn't delve into that material.

In answer to your question, it could have been about all those things, but since it wasn't, it need not address them.

This actually, I believe, points to a mistake many BS make in regard to this stuff. Plan A is about saving the marriage. All the rest of it has to do with recovery. Caleb saved his marriage to Catherine with what amounts to a brilliant, though sometimes not well executed, Plan A. Catherine was clearly repentant, not only for her EA but also for her actions pre-EA. BOTH of them had not just a change in actions, but in the way they thought, a change of heart, if you prefer that term.


Certainly not friends of the marriage.



I’ll be praying for you.

Mark

Hey Ottert,

Praying for you, too. How'd it go last night with your W?


Mark, so what did your wife think about your church's Fireproof event? Did this impact your POJA process re: your desire to start an MB group like you mentioned above?

Ace

Thanks for asking, Ace, and for praying.

The date night was OK, nothing special. We're not ready for special just yet. We're doing good to get out of the house and spend a few hours together and not have it end in tension and silence.

We watched Fireproof, but got in late from dinner, the movie wasn't over until 11:45, so we went straight to bed without much talking. I left at 5:30 this morning with my daughter to watch a friend run a half-marathon, met my wife at church just before 2nd service and we haven't had much time together.

I'm curious what her perception of the movie was but I'm not ready to ask her straight up. I'm sure you can imagine being in the environment in which any conversation can lead to a meltdown. I'm gun shy.

We both were wiping tears and sniffling during the movie. Not sure if she was crying 'cause she could relate to Catherine's despair or if she saw some of her own mistakes. Probably a little of both.

Mark, I saw more remorse and repentance in Catherine this time around. In fact, I think now I like the way the movie portrayed it without hitting you over the head with the obvious. She definitely was broken over her rejection and betrayal of Caleb and she showed great humility in coming to him and offering forgiveness, respect and renewed love.

Also, thanks for pointing out the movie's mission of showing how one spouse can do Plan A, or a Love Dare, or whatever you want to call it, and possibly save a marriage from doom. Because of your post, I focused on that aspect and I appreciate it more now.

If W and I talk about it I'll give an update.

One thing really struck me from watching the movie: the effect the Love Dare had on Caleb.

While going thru the Love Dare, Caleb really came to love Catherine more than he ever had before. His heart was transformed, even though he started off by just going thru the motions.

I think that the effect the Love Dare had on Catherine was not nearly as important as the effect it had on Caleb. And I think the effect it had on Caleb played a larger role in rescuing their marriage than the effect on Catherine.

Catherine could tell when Caleb was going thru the motions - she saw it as manipulation, and rightfully so. When Caleb started to really feel for his wife... that is when she started to come around. And his changed heart was displayed when he apologized to Catherine for how he had wronged her. At that moment, he recognized that he had no control over Catherine's decision, and that if their marriage were to survive, it would have to be because she wanted it as much as he did.

In that moment, Caleb is demonstrating respect, compassion and empathy for Catherine. Not coincidentally, that is the first time Catherine's hardened heart starts to crack.

This is something that every husband who sees the movie should reflect upon very carefully.

You're right about that CC. The story of the movie is what happened to Caleb.

However, it doesn't always result in the softening of a W's hardened heart or a recovered marriage, at least not in the feel-good, happily-ever-after way that these kinds of movies portray. BTW, even though I generally support these types of faith-strengthening films, this group's other movie, Facing The Giants, had the same kind of unrealistic message: Devote your life and efforts to the Lord, be selfless and faithful, and your wife will come back to you, she'll get pregnant after years of infertility, you'll get that promotion, and someone will leave a shiny new pickup in your driveway, paid for free and clear in your name.

On D-day when I confronted W about her secret email contact with her ex, I had been praying, crying and repenting to God for three days for my failures as a husband. I was broken. I confessed these to her and asked for her forgiveness.

No kidding, it was nearly identical to the scene in Fireproof. (I had not seen it. The movie wasn't out yet). I was on my knees beside our bed, she was sitting on the bed. In tears (just like Caleb), I told her how I knew I had failed to meet her needs and had been a selfish husband. I told her I wanted to be the man she thought I would be when she married me 20 years before. I was gentle and calm.

She kicked me in the teeth.

"Stay out of it! This is none of your business!"

"You won't control me and tell me who I can talk to!"

"I don't need your tears. Buck up and be a man."

"I'm glad this hurt you. You deserved it."

She might as well have flipped me the finger and said "Go to He**!"

This from my 25-years a Christian, ladies Bible study, morally upright and upstanding wife.

It wasn't a pure plan A since I knew nothing of MB back then, but I tried to serve her with all my might and make our marriage one she wouldn't want to leave. I couldn't do enough for her. Told her she would get the love from me she had been lacking for years and then I proved it with my actions. I emailed her and wrote notes daily, sent her off to work with coffee and a kiss, greeted her warmly when we got home from work at night. Helped out around the house. Held my tongue when hardly any of this was recognized. Plenty of other stuff.

At the same time, I demanded she send a NC email (I didn't know to call it that) to him and watched her write it and send it. I demanded access to her email and cell phone records and passwords and an accounting of her whereabouts. I insisted on counseling, first with our pastor and then marriage counselors. I have stood my ground on my expectations for recovery.

She rewarded me by insisting for 10 months that she had done absolutely nothing wrong and wouldn't admit it. She basically gaslighted me, telling me I needed a psychiatrist if I thought what she did was wrong. To this day, she angrily denies any kind of betrayal or unfaithfulness. During most of the past year in counseling and privately, she has seriously revised the history of our marriage to justify her hatred and bitterness.

I'll concede that one difference in my story and Caleb's is he was already 43 days into some kind of Plan A (the Love Dare), and so Catherine was probably more receptive to his contrition.

I'm not disputing your point, CC, which I think is that we can only control ourselves and ask God to change us into better people regardless of how our mates receive it. I have been trying and asking God for this for 14 months. I'd give myself a about a C+ at this point.

Hi, ottert. I'm sorry to hear about how tough your situation has been.

In general, I think that God treads lightly when it comes to the condition of people's hearts. In other words, in my opinion, God honors our free will and freedom of choice, and if a WW is bound and determined to stay wayward and to stay hard-hearted, God will not step in and force them to change.

A bit of a disclaimer here. I was raised Christian, but I am not a churchgoer. (If I had to characterize myself, I might use the term "lapsed Christian".) What I say may or may not be doctrinally correct.

That said, I think that it might be possible that, as your wife is a "25-year Christian lady" - that she may be deeper in rebellion against God than someone who is less schooled in their faith. Does that make any sense? For her to disregard that much teaching, that much of an investment in her faith probably means the A is deeper rooted in her than it might be in someone else. Just a thought I'm tossing out there, I have no idea if that makes any sense or not.

One other point - the movie ties Caleb's conversion experience to the transformation of his heart. I had a similar transformation of my own heart, though, without a conversion experience - and my wife came back similarly to the way Catherine did, also without any conversion experience. I believe these concepts and the potential for one's heart to transform are universal, although I will readily admit the possibility that an active faith can add a component to the marriage that is beyond my current understanding.

I think that God will honor your prayers and show you how to be the husband you need to be. I believe He will make Himself available to touch your wife's heart, if she is open to it. But I don't believe He will intrude upon her heart and force her to open up. That part is up to her... and it is likely that the best you can do for her is to pray that she recognizes the need to open her heart and seek the truth.

I also believe that God will not abandon you, even if your wife does - and He will be able to restore your life to what it needs to be, whether your wife chooses to come along or not.

All the best...

I better go watch this movie so I can read the rest of this thread!

L4, if you're like me, reading about a movie's plot prior to seeing it will help you 'see' things from the dialogue you might have missed otherwise. It seems like Ottert 'saw' much more the second time around so I wouldn't worry about the spoiler factor.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think pre/post seeing the movie. Do you think what I've highlighted in CC's post might relate to your situation with your BH?

Ace