Roy, that assumes that the end user can RECOGNIZE manipulation. I have found that often they can't. What may be profoundly obvious to you and me may not be obvious to a shell shocked BS who has an emotional investment in seeing nothing.

And many simply do not have good bs detectors, period.

Point taken. In AheadOfTheCurve's case though, he seems to have a good feel for the situation.

I wouldn't assume that. He has an emotional investment in NOT detecting subterfuge. It is not uncommon that a very shrewd person can see it in everyone elses marriage, but not their own.

Maybe we should let AOTC speak for himself and not try to profile his situation.

"We are what we repeatedly do." - Aristotle

I believe he is speaking for himself, isn't he? But we very much should profile his situation if we see fit. There is no reason not to. A BS is about the least objective person in their own situation.

Roy,

You may be right. My very good lying husband looked like crap for about three months prior to D-day. Once D-day occurred, my BS detector (double entendre intentional)was on high alert and less lies slipped by. But they still did occur for about half the time there was still contact at work (three months until H left his job and we moved). I finally asked FWH when he stopped lying to me and he said "as soon as I could". One of the factors that stopped him was that he kept getting caught and I would unload huge blunt comments on him for doing it.

In any case, my point to Aheadofcurve is to keep his eyes and ears open. Maybe he is - hope so - just some of his posts seem to have "rosy glasses" or perhaps this is an extraordinary recovery start.

AM

Melody, Roy, Armymama:

What scares me right now is the possibility that I AM wearing rose colored glasses right now. I admit the possibility.

But her total transparency makes a difference. I have been monitoring everything, believe me. I know what to look for and I know where the possibilities lie. Hyperawareness is not a bad thing.

I will do further research on the OM's status next week. I really do need to know before next weekend's H2H talk. But I also don't want to stir up anything that's over and to let dead dogs lie in the ditch where they belong. I don't want to pull a Frankenstein on this thing. That would be just a bit counterproductive.

If it turns out she's shining me on right now, she'll have two big bruises -- one from my shoe, and the other from the curb. If this is not real, what will be real is the end. I have my limits, as I've said before. And if that happens, the consequences will be ugly for her, because I think our two boys will not speak to her ever again. I will not expose unless it's Plan D for that very reason.

And yes, I'm nervous about what awaits. But it's a test that she has to pass. And it's a test I have to pass as well. All i know is, I was real good on tests back in my school days.

Wish me luck. I think I'm gonna need it.

The beauty of this is -- if I'm right about the situation, we really ARE ahead of the curve. Then it'll be up to me not to mess it up.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Then you'll be the first couple on MB to go through recovery with completely smooth sailing.

Even IF you know all the facts, and even IF she is being transparent, and even IF she's truly remorseful, YOU are going to find yourself in about six months in some interesting emotional stages.

P.S. I could tell you about it, what 99% of the people on MB have experienced, but it probably won't apply to you.

princessmeggy:

Even IF you know all the facts, and even IF she is being transparent, and even IF she's truly remorseful, YOU are going to find yourself in about six months in some interesting emotional stages.

P.S. I could tell you about it, what 99% of the people on MB have experienced, but it probably won't apply to you. <G>

Hence the last sentence of my previous post. "The beauty of this is -- if I'm right about the situation, we really ARE ahead of the curve. Then it'll be up to me not to mess it up."

Yeah, I'm aware that I could be the problem down the road. If she's doing everything she's supposed to do, I have to reward her for it. And I still have things to work through, of course. A lot of it will be to tell my ego to shut up and sit down. I've been all over the map the last couple of days as it is, and we haven't even had our long-scheduled disinfecting H2H talk yet.

I had a couple of triggers yesterday, and it got a little tense, but I just now woke up this morning as she went to work, and everything was cool. We were both remorseful about last night -- and it really wasn't all that much to be remorseful about, honestly, just a little b!tchin', nothing major.

That kind of reaction gives me even more confidence than the other, more overt signs of bonding. Resilience is what's needed more than anything right now. She's being patient with me, and I'm trying to do the same with her.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Ace:

Computers aren't an issue. She's not computer savvy, and he knows even less. The OM wasn't even smart enough to research that tourist spot they went to together last year. He couldn't find any of the good stuff, despite all the brochures and advertising. They lived on their cell phones during the A. And that's covered. And she isn't sneaking around. She's been keeping me posted on what she's doing. I have enough independent confirmation of her movements to feel confident about that, as well.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

So much for waiting until next weekend for the heart-to-heart talk. Last night, after we'd started talking about how she needs to sync up her work schedule to mine, my WW suddenly opened the floor for discussion of all the things I wanted to ask her.

It was a memorable evening. Not all that pleasant, but memorable nonetheless.

I took it from the beginning, and she told me it started out innocently, two former co-workers talking about people they knew, etc. They'd gone to lunch, and the conversations gradually got more personal. Then came Der Tag in May 2007, when they went back to his place, went for a motorcycle ride, and then the other kind of ride and the PA was on.

Not pleasant to hear, but I kept my cool throughout, asking questions and leading her through the story. She commented that I seemed calm, ut she could see my knuckles turning white. I think that I impressed her. I did my best not to interrupt and break the information flow.

I don't know if it was smart or not, but that's when I dropped my little bomb about the OM's questionable marital status. She was absolutely stunned. The blood drained from her face and she got real quiet. I asked her another question, and she didn't answer. She said she was still trying to work through what I told her.

I went through the whole thing at that point, the trip to the two courthouses and coming up empty on divorce papers, the OMW/XW? MySpace page where she refers to herself as Mrs*** as her logon name, on the link to her college connection board where she talks about her interests as "I Love Riding our Harley with My Husband **** " which was last updated October 31, 2008. Later on, I showed her picture from MySpace, and commented that I'd bet money that both only have the red hair, but the same body type, etc.

I also told her it's possible they were divorced in another state, but in checking on Texas on the internet (a state that puts all of it on the web), the names didn't pop up, and that the OMW/XW?'s home state would be a long-shot.

In retrospect, I'm not sure this was smart. I don't think that the info will cause her to break NC, but I'll have to monitor that.

Then she told me something that made my jaw drop. She owns the house, and he lives in that camper trailer that I saw parked on the front lawn. I had to laugh at that. If true, how lame. What does it say about this putz? He's a mechanic and doesn't make much money. She's an accountant-type with a really good job. OM told WW that they get along better now that they're divorced. I suggested that it's unlikely he sleeps in the trailer all the time, and she nodded her head on that one.

However, in their times over there, WW was never there when the OMW/XW? was around, so she doesn't know. She never was in the house itself, and the OM doesn't keep photos in the trailer. She's never actually seen the OMW/XW? or their two sons, so she's clueless on that.

As for the PA itself, she figured it was going to be a ONS, and she surprised herself when she went back for more. When I pressed her on why, she didn't have an answer. I'm not sure she knows, but that's a topic for another day - Saturday, I'm guessing.

She also told me she never wished she started it, but she's still going through WD and didn't express the kind of remorse I was hoping to see. She referred to it as an "experience." I also told her I wished I could turn back the clock three years and b!itch-slap myself for not taking care of business and leaving the gate open for this. I also said she had no excuse going through the gate, but that that was a separate deal.

She said they would get together about once every other week, never more often than that, even though they were talking on the phone only once in awhile but texting each other like a couple of teenagers. She said they met where he works a few times, waited until the place cleared out, and go at it on the desk. Again, not pleasant to hear, but I had asked for some of the details. On my own head be it.

She says she doesn't know why she told me (ironically on his birthday) and wishes she hadn't. She figures the A would have died a natural death and I never would have known or been hurt by it. But the WD was obvious, because she says she still misses him. When I pressed her on what she missed, she ran off the EA portion of the list. When I asked about the PA part of the program, she looked at me and snorted and said "You have nothing to worry about there."

At that point, we called it quits. I proceeded to do my best to remind her about that last point. She enjoyed the session either twice as much or three times as much as I did. No complaints there. <G>

I did tell her that the stuff she told me definitely was disturbing, but that I was willing to help her and wait out the WD for the simple fact that she was with me, not him, and that this past month has been good.

We had to cut things short, since she had to get up at 4:00 to go to work. I got out of bed around midnight so my thrashing around wouldn't wake her up and got onto the internet to do more research on divorce status. She wound up getting up, and I walked through how I got all my information on the OM and his W/XW. She had no idea any of that was possible on the internet. Like I'd said early, neither one of them is tech-savvy.

I also gave her my analysis of things. That POS basically found himself in a possible FWB situation, and took total advantage of it. She's fun to be with, and a tiger in the sack, so who could ask for more? But when the A was revealed, it was time to boogie on. Who needs the drama of angry BH and livid adult sons who would tell WW to go to he!!, with one of them his size and possibly temped to come over and attempt to beat his a$$. (Note: the OM is about 6-3 and ex-military and a good shot. On the other hand, true hate can make a difference. I might be five inches shorter and eight years older, but YS is a 6-2 weightlifter who's 19 years younger than the OM. And I have no idea how YS would react to all this. I don't ever want to find out.)

And on top of that, he'd have to deal with WW's hysterics if it all went down like that. Like I said, no percentage in that. All contact after that was initiated by WW, and wasn't always responded to. I told her one other thing about him. Anyone who spent that much time with her and didn't want to fight for her was a pu$$y. He didn't appreciate what she had to offer. Dude's an idiot, which is my biggest ally in getting the M back on track.

We're nowhere near done talking about this. The answers she gave bring up other questions. And I think she has questions of me as well, which I will answer fully and truthfully.

I do know this -- I will attempt to contact the OMW/XW? at some point this week, and hopefully take her to lunch to pick her brain about all this.

I'm not sure about being ahead of the curve. I'm just hoping there's not a train around the bend ready to run my butt over.

Thoughts, anyone? I eagerly await feedback.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Ace:

Why better in phone than in person? I'd like to see her reactions, etc., while talking about this. It would give me a better gauge on what's going on. That's if she's willing, of course.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

You may not realize it but you two have an unintentional (and possibly undetectable) bond ~ both just having been betrayed ~ that could lead to places neither of you intend to go.

It could be risky, that's why I wouldn't do it alone in person. But that's me.

Ace

Ace:

You may not realize it but you two have an unintentional (and possibly undetectable) bond ~ both just having been betrayed ~ that could lead to places neither of you intend to go.

It could be risky, that's why I wouldn't do it alone in person. But that's me.

Hmmm.. let's just say my boundaries are completely unassailable. There is no danger of that, not in any way....

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

I think that the advice to just call the OMW is probably sound. You appear to be a lot like myself in wanting to force the issues. A phone conversation with the OMW would be adequate.

You now have a dialog with your wife about the affair. I would just proceed with the Plan A stuff and monitor your conversations with your wife.

My wife offers up little details from time to time just in normal conversation. I then ask small questions for clarification.

The biggest issue that I still face is coming to grips with the fact that my wife had moved on from our marriage. The idea that she was gone (in her mind) coupled with the fact that I still had a glimmer of hope is hard for me to reconcile. The idea that we viewed things so totally different shakes me up a bit... but I learned a lesson.

Remain vigilant, enjoy your time with your wife, listen to what she says to you and contemplate... no need for immediate reactions or responses.

If you two are spending a lot of time with each other... much more than before and things are peaceful and intimate with some fun mixed in... I'd say you're on the right track.

Remain vigilant.

Roy / Ace:

Thank for the advice. This has been a rather rocky day. Neither one of us got more than 3-4 hours of sleep. She just came home for lunch while I was running an errand, and we had a grand total of 10 minutes together.

She told me that she can't talk about this anymore, that she's worn out, and she's tired of me bringing things up all the time.

I haven't been, and she's the one last night that initiated the conversation about the past. I've been told that she can't help me with my problems while she's working through hers. My response was that I'm feeling really frustrated right now. There are two books I've asked her to read, Not "Just Friends" by Sharon Glass -- she got to page 140 about a month ago and just stopped. The other is HNHN by Dr. Harley. She told me she's tired of me harping on the books. I mentioned one of the books briefly about a week ago, and brought the other home from the library yesterday.

Bottom line is that I'm starting to get angry with her attitude. I feel like I'm carrying the whole load. And if she mentions her pain one more time, I might explode. Her actions started this whole cascade of crap.

Yeah, I'm just venting -- but now I have to go to work and put on a happy face after 4 hours of sleep. I've done it before, and I'll do it again. I know this resentment won't help and will probably push things back, but I can't help it.

I'm so sick of it.

----
Me: BH (49)
Her: WW (47)
Sons: 23, 22
EA 3/07?-12/08
PA 6/07-10/08
D-Day 11/12/08
NC established 1/1/09

A good start to what could be a great '09.
Or not.

Yes, most definitely time to ease back on things... you've gotten a lot of answers to your questions. Time now to pursue some pleasant times with your wife. And I mean a lot! Let's say, 98% other pursuits to 2% talking about the affair.

You'll talk again when the time is right, but down the road, my friend.

Look at it this way... if she is not in contact with the OM and is with you... you now need to take full advantage of the opportunity to court her again. That is what she really needs... she just might not know it yet. You'll never convince her verbally, she has to feel it.

AOTC,

I realize that my situation was/is not the exact same thing you are going through... but I think you really have to ask yourself "what do I want my wife to be?"

Do you want your wife to be forever remorseful and sad or do you want your wife to be that women you fell in love with?

I want my wife to be the person who I dated and I initially fell in love with, although, this may not be exactly Marriage Builder's condoned advice.

Granted, I've only known my wife for about 6 years now... 5 years in our relationship, but I hope to renew a relationship with her where there are no regrets and we have those consistant happy thoughts about each other.

Therefore I have to be extremely careful about dumping too much of my hurt onto her.

My wife understands she hurt me. She understands that she received poor advice and made poor decisions. If I want the kind of wife that I think I want, I have let some of that hurt just lie in the past and move on and do the things that I did before to woo her. It worked before. It seems to be working again.

In my case, I can't reject her again like I did the first time.

One of the worst things I ever did to her was to push her away, as one fateful night I accused her of being too clingy. That was akin to telling her that I hated her and to get lost. I made many mistakes.

Now I want my wife to be clingy. I want her to be clingy to me the rest of my life. I now realize how blessed I was.

Therefore I have to be the man and do the things that won her the first time around.

For me, it's really a small price to pay for a future of happiness. I'm not the most affectionate guy around, but I want my wife. My wife thrives on the intamacy and affection. I have to make the change if I want a happy wife. It's that simple.

The thing is that I can change... an my wife is responding to me. Just like before. For me, that is what I have to do to "work" on my marriage.

The key for me... to remain vigilant! Not just keeping my eye on her, but to keep my eyes wide open in our relationship!