Ok, I tried searching for the "carrot and the stick" thread but it keeps coming up with a admin only error.

But anyways, still reading.

If she does come around or we meet somewhere, should I try kissing her and hugging her? Or should I control myself, and refrain?

Sucks because the search function here doesn't work.

Here is link to carrot and stick thread:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1640788

D

It was VERY hard for me to kiss and hug my wife immediately after DDay. In fact, with DDay #1 I booted her from apt for two weeks while I searched my soul. Very little contact (hmmmm, I probably lucked in to a little Plan B there now that I think about it...)

With DDay#2 I was pretty shocked and was cold and distant to her for a few days. WAnted to be closer to her because we are both touchy-feely types, intertwined in bed as we sleep, etc. But those first few days I was pretty grumpy and upset.

After I had it in my mind I wanted to work on the marriage I asked her if I could hug, kiss, be close to her (but didn't tell her I wanted to work on things right away...made her sweat for a while).

Once I was committed to working on marriage and told her so I tried to be as normal as possible with her -- hugs, kisses, etc. Some days she was more receptive, other days not.

Plan A.

Ok, guy's I need to get ahold of myself.

I have set up an appointment with Steve.
I was just wondering, should I mention this to my wife, and see if she is willing to phone in as well? Or should I go at it alone for the first session?

I would advise just you talking to Steve during this first session, for the following reasons:

1. Your wife is not fully committed to recovering the marriage and any attempts you make to talk about relationships or marriage will drive her further away. She will feel preached at, controlled, and mainpulated. She will become angry and resentful.

2. I think she's still in her affair. While her on-again, off-again attitude toward the marriage could be explained by withdrawal from OM, her desire to move out of her parents' and into a place of her own suggests that she's getting pressure at her parents (which she *probably* wouldn't be if she wanted to reconcile). And if she wanted to move out due to pressure from the parents, why wouldn't she move back home with you? I think she's either still in the affair or hoping to re-kindle it. Counseling is useless while a person is still in an affair. Not useless for you, useless for her.

Great job on exposing the affair to her parents, by the way. Does OM have a wife or girlfriend? You should expose to them, too.

Your youngest is three... I could be wrong but I don't think PPD lasts that long. And if she's depressed, I'd wager it's due to the affair and the guilt that goes along with leading a duplicitous life.

Absolutely! You ARE married. Any time you are around her is an opportunity to show her what a great husband you can be. She may get angry and if she does then that's because she feels guilty, so she becomes resentful.

You really need to read up on Plan A (see link in my sig) and get working on it NOW. Meet her ENs and avoid LBs. Don't talk about the relationship and don't harass her with "I love you"s. Neither of those meets ENs. Chat with her about her day. Admire her, show her attention, be romantic (cards, flowers). You don't have to spend a lot of money. Make a cheesy home-made card. Make flowers out of tissue paper. Show up on her doorstep and sing her favorite song to her.

Does she ever come over to the house? If so, have it clean and orderly. Have good music playing, make sure the kids are clean, have yummy smelling dinner cooking. Have scented candles lighted and sitting around.

Note that these are just ideas. You have to meet YOUR WIFE's top ENs. What I listed may not meet her top ENs so you could be wasting your time blindly doing all that stuff. The key is to figure out what HER top ENs are and then meet them consistently and regularly.

You can *respond* that you love her, but I wouldn't initiate any I love yous. Definitely kiss her! Why on earth would you not? If she wants you to kiss her, and you don't, she'll think "I was right, he doesn't love me. I was right to look for love elsewhere. I was a fool to even think about going back to someone who rejects and neglects me the way he does."

No. The affair causes her to think she has never loved you. It is a classic symptom of an affair.

No. Ending the affair (and getting through withdrawal from OM) will allow you to make deposits into her love bank (by meeting her ENs) and THAT will make her feel that she loves you again.
1. No contact with OM (you're meeting her ENS)
2. Withdrawal (you're meeting her ENs)
3. Her bank account opens up (all your deposits get made, you keep meeting her ENs
4. She feels love for you

This is classic affair-speak for "I want to have space to play and pursue OM without feeling guilty".

This is gold! One of her top ENs is conversation. Little chit-chat about nothing and everything. Call her and tell her about a cool caterpillar you saw. Text her and tell her how great the sky was when the rain quit and the sun came out. Email her about how you saw a dead bird by the curb and it was poignant and moving. Send her a short note via snail mail with something funny you saw or heard. TALK with her. Meet her EN for conversation!

Warning! Warning! Warning!
You need to be talking to her at least a once or twice a day. Maybe skip a day, maybe go crazy and touch base four times. But TALK with her.

First of all I don't believe her and second of all even if there is NC it's only been for two weeks. Proceed with caution. She has all the signs of an active wayward.


You can't afford a weekend with the Harleys but you can afford a trip and a weekend marriage seminar with someone other than the Harleys? I don't follow.

Why are you lying to her? If it causes you concern then you don't support it.

Only a madman would support this decision. Support her decision to cease contact with OM (with plenty of openness and transparency and ability to verify NC) and then she can move back into the marital home. Under no circumstances should you ever support her desire to move out on her own and make a love-nest with OM.

Great reply TurtleHead!

Nice work...

Wow, turtle,

Am I that blind, do you honestly think she is doing all of this, for that reason?

I am seriously thinking of moving into plan B, maybe even Plan D.
After some of the intial shock has worn off, I am starting to think, this isn't worth it. I am just affraid to be alone, no one deserves a wayward spouse.

Turtle Head is giving you useful information. It's information you can use to make this work for you.

Your W may not (and probably does not) understand what she is doing and why she is doing it. If you have studied this, you know it is at least partly chemical.

Remember that there are two plans - Plan A and Plan B. A is first for a reason. You need to do a good plan A before going to B.

Of course you can go right to D if you want, it's your choice. We are here to help if you want to save things .

Read TH's post again. What she is saying, is that these things follow a script, and she is telling you what the script is, and where it will go if you don't step in and act the way you can and should if you want to keep your W from getting in any deeper.

I think there is a high probability of success for you if you make a good plan, and work it well.

Think about calling the Harleys' for counseling. (even a few sessions) It is much cheaper than a D will be.

Some things to keep in mind -

Her feelings will change from day to day, maybe even from hour to hour. You need to work your plan, and be steady. Don't change your plan just because she seems sure she does, or doesn't want you. That's what the plan is for - so you can make progress even when she is having problems.

Don't gauge your success on what she is saying today, or tonight, or tomorrow. Take trends over a month or so, and look at the big picture. She is not steady, so you have to be.
Think - Light house. This is a stormy time, you have to be the light house.

It's your choice as to what you want, and what you do, but if you want to save this, you need to work the plan and do it well.
Think on it, and tell us what you want.

SS

I do want to save my marriage.

I have set up a coaching with Steve for Monday morning.

I guess I am just totally clueless as to what to do, and what to say, and what not to do, and what not to say at this or any given point in time.

Seems just a tab bit unfair I should have to dislocate my hips just to bend over backwards for her.


Update:

She came by to pick the kids up from me tonight. After I helped her with a flat tire.
The girls were acting hungry, so I asked her if she wanted to go to supper with me.

She agreed, so I took them out to eat, and we talked, and I said nothing about us, just talked about everything else under the sun.

I asked her if she was excited about getting her own place, and she said, not really, that she is not excited about anything, right now.

Had a good time, or at least what I thought was a step in the right direction, at least she went.
Did not tell her I loved her, told her that I missed her.
Then we kissed and hugged. And I stood there as I watched them drive off.
I didn't feel sad anymore. I will miss mydaughters but it is only for 2 days.

Anyways, she noticed, I was working on the kitchen, told her I was getting ready to put up 1" x 1" tile on the back splash. She looked at me like, you are now doing this? She then asked how I was affording it on my own. I told her I am doing it a bit at a time. Sooner or later it will be done, that it gives me a break and takes my mind away from the seperation, and that it really needs something done, cause it is looking rather sad at the moment. I then told her I was going to need someones help to spread the backing, and asked if she knew of anyone willing to help, she looked at me like, are you talking to me, then I just came out and asked her if she wanted to help me, and to make sure I did it right.
She acted kind of dumb founded, and said ummmmmm yeah I guess i can.

I don't know, she is not right in the head, either it's a full blown affair as you have said, or she is having some mental issue, cause she don't even act like the laid back, easy going, smiling all the time, wonderful, caring person i met and fell in love with.

I don't know anymore........

No, he is single, he may have "friends", but I have no idea about a true GF or anything serious.


My youngest is not quite 2 years old, actually more like 19 months.



I have been doing these things, but I feel as if she doesn't want them done.



She has only been back to the house a few times, and yes every time the house is cleaner than it was when she was here, and I have even started to remodel.....


She never initiates the kiss, I do, but she does kiss me back, and some have been rather passionate. As I hold her cheeks in my hands, and looking her deep in her hazel eyes. *sigh*


This is killing me, maybe i am blind but I just don't see this from her, at least not right now.



Yeah again, this is killing me.


Awsome ideas, but I still feel as if she doesn't want me doing these. Should I do them until she tells me to stop?


Again, I don't feel as if she wants me to talk to her.


How can I find out for sure? Track her? Stalk her?


This trip was going to be really cheap the motel is already paid for. She has not really commited to the seminar as of yet, but she did ask me to go.



Note taken. This avoiding LB's is confusing. Would this not be a LB in a form?


Ok, help to understand, how can I keep her from moving out on her own?

How do I ask for this "with plenty of openness and transparency and ability to verify NC)"??
What if she says no or get's mad because I don't believe her.

Yeah I am starting to sound kind of nutless eh?

You can't keep her from or make her do anything.

Within,

You are making a big mistake here and it is very very common. In fact it is the reason Harley started all of this.

Your big mistake is assuming that once you found out about her affair, she would stop it, and decide to come back to you. You take her lack of enthusiasm right now as if it will remain as such. It will not in most cases. This whole thing is far more complicated because she has to deal with decisions if she decides to come back, she has to face her failures, she has to deal with feelings for OM, AND her feelings for you. She is young, not terribly mature, and this takes time.

You need to be thinking in terms of months and I would say about 6 months before you will be able to make any sort of decision. So sit back, be a great dad to your kids, be supportive as much as you can, and keep in good contact with her parents.

You really need to read Harley's articles on love busters particularly the most deadly of all; The Disrespectful Judgement, DJ for short. The DJ is an assumption that you know what is going on with your partner and take action based on it. She certainly has done it, and it seems from your posts you are doing it as well.

I appreciate that this is the second time this has happened but she is not your ex. She may have done something similar but she is NOT YOUR EX. Please remember this. I know you feel you are under pressure to make a decision but really you are not.

I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised with SH, he is very good. Your problem right now is you don't have a plan so you are sort of blowing in the wind. You need a plan to work on recovery. The info here will really help, but I am sure SH will help you develop one as well.

Hang in there, things change and often with effort they change for the better. I know your efforts last time were not successful, but don't think they cannot be this time.

God Bless,

JL

Within, JL is spot on here! And this is the single hardest thing for me to deal with!

As a guy I'm all about fixing things. Flat tire, fix it! Broken lamp...fix it! Leaky faucet...fix it! Troubled relationship...fix it, NOW!

Danger, danger, danger...you can't fix overnight what took months, maybe even years to develop.

I struggle with this even now. I see a little progress in my WW and I think, "great, on to the next step. Let's do ____." Then i push and try to make her do things. Bad idea. Even my WWs counselor says take time (my counselor says same thing).

It is sooooo hard to do, but JL is right here. Fix the things you known were LB-ing towards her. Meet her ENs, keep the house clean, be the worlds best husband/father/guy!

And remember, Plan A is your secret weapon to defeat this thing called an affair. The OM has no clue what ENs are, what LBs are...he's just acting like an alien, as you WW is.

If your wife wants to move out, say "I'm not in favor of that plan" and let her do what she must. Previous poster was right -- you can't make her do anything.

And that's the glory of Plan A. In a well executed Plan A you aren't asking her to see you as a good man, you are SHOWING her you are the worlds greatest husband and the one for her. Be strong, be calm, avoid LBs, and show her by your actions that you can make positive changes in your lifestyle.

And remember, this is going to take months, possibly years!

Another great point...by working on yourself and your relationship you are learning valuable lessons here. Even if you current marriage heads through Plan B to Plan D (and Plan FU), you will have learned a lot about what it takes to have a successful relationship. And you will be a better person because of it.

And, you will know deep down in your heart that you gave this marriage, this relationship 100% effort.

Those are the things that keep me driving my Plan A bus. Take care and be strong!

Update:

My wife called and told me that she had a flat tire. She asked if I could help. I told her yes, I could.
So I still had the kids, and proceded to take them out put them in the van, and grab the bubble jack and 4-way.
As I was starting to get in the van, my phone rang again, and it was her she told me to forget it, she went ahead and called the local garage.
I was very upset, not sure why, but I ended up hanging up on her. She called right back and asked what hapened and asked if I hung up on her, I told her, yes, yes, I did.
I was upset that I had gone through all this to come help my wife, but you thought it better to contact a garage after you called me, instead of calling them first.

She applogized and asked me to forgive her.

So i took the kids back into our house, and made a tent, while waiting for her to show up.

She finally showed up, and again appologized about not taking care of that better.
I asked her why she was still at work so late, and claimed that a friend she works with and her went to do some things, eventually she told me that she got her apartment that day, and was having the utilities turned on.

While she was at the house watching the kids and I play in the tent. I could see the sadness on her face, so I spoke quietly and said, everything will be alright, have faith in god.

Now the girls initially acted all happy to see her, but after a bit, my youngest was very adimit about not allowing her mom to close to her, and had latched onto me.

Well it was getting late by this time, and the girls were getting hungary, so out of the kindness and love for her in my heart, I asked her if she cared to go grab something to eat.

She agreed, so we got ready to go, well she put my middle daughters coat on, and then proceded to put the youngest daughters coat on, while I was holding her. My youngest refused her mom to even get close to her.
I finally put my daughter down and took the coat from my wife, and my daughter hurridly put it on, and then lated onto me again.

Anyways, I made a comment, that they were going to make me cry. And that i felt sad for them.

So we ended up, at the resturaunt, adn, we were trying to get the kids sat down, and neither one of them would sit next to my wife. So they both ended up on my side of the booth.

Dinner went well, we chatted about this that and the other thing, but I mentioned nothing about us.
I did however ask her if she was excited about getting her own place, and she said she did not really care, cause she was not excited about anything, right now.

But then she switched the subject, and asked what I was doing in the kitchen, cause I had things kind of misplaced, and stuff torn up. I told her I was remodeling the kitchen a bit, she seemed rather miffed but did not say anything.

So after dinner, I walked them out to her car, put the kids in their car seats, and then I approached her and held her face in my hands, and kissed her passionatly, and she kissed me back.
Maybe she just felt as if she had to, i don't know.

I told her to have a great tomorrow at work, and stood there and watched them drive off.

She turned and waved at me as she exited the resturaunt's drive.


I felt good, and I wasn't sad.

Hey Within - Checking in as you requested. I have to say that I think you're getting some FANTASTIC advice here. I don't spend much time in GQ. My marriage didn't end from an affair, so I don't have a lot of direct experience.

Honestly, there were times when I wish my XW -was- having an affair. That may have been a case of the "grass is greener" though. It just seems like situations such as yours (affairs) have a lot more tools and it's much more predictable. My XW was what Harley calls a Walkaway Wife and the reactions and advice I got here was a bit more scattered.

Anyway, I don't have much to add at the 50000 foot view that the others haven't already mentioned. Identify the LBs (I can't tell you what yours are to your W - you're going to have to figure that out on your own), eliminate them completely, start filling ENs like crazy (again, going to be up to you to figure them out), and give your Plan A some significant time.

One thing in your latest post that struck me was your reaction to your W when she called you back about the tire. I can understand your frustration and your consternation. You're already feeling at odds about her behavior and her treatment of you and your daughters. To agree to help her, then to have her wave you off after you'd already made an effort... Did that feel dismissive? Did you feel taken for granted? Irrelevant?

Instead of lashing out at her in anger, I implore you to consider your intentions first next time. What is it you were angry about and how can you address her honestly, without attacking? Consider a response like this:
"I'm glad you got it taken care of, and I'm glad you're safe. I'm disappointed that I lost the opportunity to help you though. I know that I haven't been there for you a lot in the past, and so I want to take every opportunity to make up for that.". Maybe not all of that exactly - I'm just trying to make a point. You can speak the truth and express your Openness and Honesty (O&H) without LBing. Something that helps is speaking in "I" statements. "I feel...", or "I think...". Avoid "You" statements. Things like, "You always do...", and "You always act like...". Those are attacks and judgments. Same thing with questions. Avoid putting her on the defensive. The next time she has a flat, who do you want her to call? You or the OM? Who's she going to feel safer calling?

My other thoughts... Spend time with your IC exploring how to improve your own behaviors overall. Not just with regard to your W, but in all aspects of your life.

Hi SB,

Note duely taken.
To answere your questions, yes, I am upset with her, for the very fact of how she is treating me, and moreso our daughters.

I did fell dismissed, and taken for granted.
She claims she wants the independance, and yet she keeps calling me for things.

I did explain to her when we went to eat supper, I appologized for the tire issue, I had no right to hang up like that, but I was feeling left out, and dismissed, and that I was ready to help her in any way that I could, and that I was really wanting to help her, to show her how much I cared for her..

I have a question, she has rented her low income apartment, and is going to start moving in, she has asked if she could use some of our furniture.
Do I let her take what, most likely she will end up with even if we divorce?

WithinU:

Nice update. Aside from the minor angry-outburst (I call it minor, may be a little more than that) I think you handled the night really well.

The whole thing with your little one not wanting to be near mommy is tearing your WW up inside, I'm sure. Even before my WW started this whole A thing, even the littlest "I want Daddy, not Mommy" response from our kiddos tore up my wife. Im sure that scene is playing over and over in your WWs mind.

And the whole sitting by Dad at dinner, playing in the tent, etc. Your WW probably tried to hide her emotions and feelings, but you can bet those scenes are eating at her.

Plan A baby, gotta love it!

I wouldn't be in favor of letting my WW take any furniture from our house. How do you word that to her without being an LB? Not sure. You can bet some wise old veterans will come up with great phrases to use

These are tough times my friend. Hang in there. Remember, this is a marathon, times a thousand. Not a spring (note to self, I need to read that sentence over and over again...for my own sake!)

Your WWs brain fell out of her head and you are slowly and surely showing her where it is laying on the floor, how to find it...pick it up and put it back in her skull. Going to take time, and more time (again, note to self, read previous sentence :))

Keep updating and keep on that strong Plan A!

Tell her that it's best not to dismantle the home for the kids.

She wanted to leave the home. Leaving is not taking the home with her.

Her leaving is not thesame as the whole family moving. A family moves every thing with them. Your wife is leaving the family.
She has decided to set up her own home.

A new apartment is part of the affair. Your job is to make the affair part as much trouble as possible. That means not making moving out an easy task. I agree, just say that's irresponsible to mess up the girls' house for an apartment that isn't necessary. (well, say it more diplomatically than that)