Ottert...

People that have nothing to hide, hide nothing...

Yes, you are correct to think this is independent behavior and violates radical honesty...Dr. Harley believes that couples should be INTERDEPENDENT and that marriage is a relationship of EXTRAORDINARY CARE...The plain fact that what she is doing makes you uncomfortable should be enough for her to cut it out...

She does NOT have the right to SECRECY...That will destroy your marriage...

Mrs. W

ottert

Time for a key logger.

Why would you need to compulsively "wonder" who she is talking to and emailing unless she is HIDING this information from you? How does a HUSBAND "stalk" his wife? Her behavior is so sneaky that I would do much more than "stalk" her, I would hire a P.I. to tail her every move. And if you can't afford that, put a GPS on her car and put a voice activated recorder in her car. She is sneaking around hiding something.


The policy of radical honesty requires complete transparency. You have a right to know everything she does and says. She does not have the right to the privacy to harm you behind your back. You share a marriage, a life, so you have a RIGHT to know everything since it is your life too.



People who have nothing to hide, DON'T HIDE. Just look at you. You don't care if she looks at every thing. Your wife wants to hide things from you, so you are absolutely right to be concerned. You should be snooping your head off. He behavior is a major red flag.

You might get more benefit from hiring a mechanic or an aerobics instructor since the failure rate of marriage counselors is 84%. You can see how much they have helped you so far. Your wife appears to be hiding something which means she is lying to the counselors, which means you are wasting your time. My suggestion would be to find out what she is hiding FIRST and perhaps get marriage COACHING from the Harleys.

Whooooaaaa. Could everybody slow down just a little? I'm new here and on my first thread already many of you are accusing my wife of a full-on adultery with just a bare skeleton of the story. Not saying some of you don't have a point, but sheesh! I need time to take some of this in and filter the good from the bad.


MelodyLane

I have read quite a few of your posts on here and respect your viewpoint. Your wisdom and common sense jumped out at me on the first thread I read ("Insanely jealous husband").

I agree with you for the most part, especially the first few statements. But it's quite a leap from what I've described to hiring a P.I. and all the rest. There is much more to the story; I was just trying to be brief so as not to bore everybody. I guess I could go the long route and tell the whole messy thing.

What I would call "stalking" is going to her work (I have reason and permission to be there; revealing many details might betray anonymity) to see who she's eating lunch with and hanging out with. I just became obsessed and convinced she did not have any hedges up to guard our marriage, so I started checking things out.

She was parking every day next to a male co-worker who is a 100% known adulterer, even though there are parking spaces 3 times closer to her office AND there were other spaces around his car where she could have parked instead of right beside him. It may sound petty, but considering the circumstances I felt I had a right to ask. Actually, I think I have a right as her husband to ask anyway. So, I asked her why she had to park there and she acted like I had accused her of having sex with him in the parking lot. There was a WAR over that, though she did eventually change where she parked.

I also learned that many days she went out of her way to walk down the hall next to his work place on the way to hers. She insists vehemently that it was a coincidence. Maybe so, but again, if she is repentant and believes she should do whatever it takes to rebuild the broken trust, shouldn't she gladly agree to avoid this man at all costs and not have a hissy fit about being "falsely accused"?

A real Love Buster to her is being "falsely accused" and not being trusted. She is very prideful of being morally strong and no one should doubt her. She has a very difficult time admitting guilt and any faults. I honestly think she doesn't know how to apologize when she's done something wrong. I can count on one had the times in 20+ years she has come to me in contrition and given a heartfelt apology.


I agree with this 100%. The problem is, we never discussed this before or during our marriage because I/we didn't think there was a need. We didn't know anything about these principles and had no pre-marital counseling to help guide us through these minefields. We were madly in love and trusted each other totally. Now I have reason to doubt and distrust her and she's got her hackles up about it. Says I'm "obsessing" and "paranoid." Well...yeah.


I have said almost these exact words to her. We have nearly ended up in a lawyer's office over it. She threatens to leave, take our kids and "you won't see us for a long time." The counselors and our church leaders don't have the guts to tell her the truth, IMO. They say I need to be the leader as a Christian husband and love, trust, respect and forgive her, regardless of her level of remorse. Some of them think I'm overreacting and need to forgive and get over it. They say she's apologized enough.

But it's not about needing more apologies (though I believe hers were inadequate). It's about rebuilding trust and her acting like a repentant person who will do whatever it takes to make this right and help us reconcile.

Take what you need and leave the rest. Its all the same to me.

Good luck...

There are SO MANY RED FLAGS Here I have no idea where to start.

I can do that.

I meant no offense to you. I hope none was taken. I was just a little shocked at the heat that got poured on so quickly.

Anything else to add to the new information I provided, or is that it? Despite what you may think, I'm open to what you and others have to say. Thanks.

For now, go back and re-read the thread and assume it is "full on adultery".

Any chance that you two can get on a marriagebuilders weekend?

Obviousy with only a 'hunch' about 'discretions' you can't prove anything.

Why are you afraid of finding the truth?

Keylogger and DVR then come back here.

ottert, i tried to tell you on your post in resolving conflict that these were the responses you would receive.

These people know what they are talking about. PLEASE LISTEN TO THEM.

I know all of this is very hard to comprehend but they are all here trying to help you get through this mess.

Regardless of what your wife says (and even what you seem to think right now) this was "full blown adultery" even if there was no physical contact between them.

Everyone here has been touched by this in one way or another.

Please stay here and LISTEN!!!!!!!

Still_Crazy

Thanks for encouraging me to stick around.

I'm not going anywhere and I AM LISTENING TO THEM!!!!! You haven't scared me off. I was just struck by the instant, frantic suggestions to hire P.I.'s, bug my W's computer, etc.

Maybe it's just the nature of this section, being that most posters here are victims of EA/PA by their spouses. I sense that many are projecting their situations onto me as they try to help. That's understandable. We all do that. But I refuse to go into panic/attack/paranoia mode again. BTDT and it led to hell on earth and nearly drove both of us to nervous breakdowns. That tactic has not worked. The environment of malice and animosity this created took a toll on our children. I have to think of them and not just serving my own desire for justice and restitution.

A few other facts I haven't had to time to lay out that temper my suspicion somewhat: My W has been committed to marriage counseling from the beginning. She reads books on marriage and becoming a good wife. She counsels regularly with a mature lady from our church who is (I hope) helping her learn how to avoid these types of situations in the future. She has promised me that she will never contact the ex again and that the primary reason she replied to his first email was to apologize.

I fully believe that her contact with this ex is over. That's not to say something similar couldn't happen again. I think I have my eyes wide open.

To repeat, the primary issue we are struggling with is her insistence on PRIVACY as it relates to her journals and diaries, and to a lesser degree her emails and cell phone records. I have access to her email account and cell phone records. She doesn't hide these from me, but is angry that I insist on checking them. I understand that this is a RED FLAG and a cause for concern. That's why I came here for advice and, even though I'm hesitant at the moment, I AM LISTENING to everyone.

Despite the suggestions, I'm not yet sold on going to the Harleys for phone counseling. For one thing, it is double the cost per hour we have been paying. And I feel the need to look my counselor in the eyes before I can trust them and the advice they are giving. After all, Dr. Harley has a lengthy article on "How To Find a Good Marriage Counselor."

Ottert - it's good you have your eyes wide open, (though, along with most others posting here, I wonder if they're open through rose-colored glasses?). The main point is, though, that your WIFE needs to have hers wide open as well.

It comes down to what Melody said - if it's for the marriage, why not fix it/do it, or why have a problem with it? If it's for the marriage, your wife needs to address her issues with pride, apologizing, and feeling defensive about her morals, "privacy," etc.

If it's for the marriage, she should be willing to listen and hear you and really take to heart your concerns about privacy and independent behaviors. It seems these are LBs for you - does she understand that?

I agree with the general consensus that an A (EA or PA, doesn't make a difference at this point) has already occurred, but maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Regardless, it sounds like you both still have a fair amount of work ahead of you. Good luck.

Thank you B_S2008

I've wondered this myself. It's entirely possible I have a blind spot because I want to believe her.


No argument from me here. That is what I have been trying to do for 13 months. I believe stumbling upon Dr. Harley's principles was a gift from God. The more I read about POJA, Independent Behavior, Radical Honesty, the more excited I get. I am hoping our new counselor and W will be open to these concepts. These are the exact things I've been trying to get W and everyone else to see but I couldn't express them well. Any time I tried to get W or even our counselors to see this stuff, I was labeled unforgiving, suspicious, paranoid, obsessive, etc. This is how marriage is supposed to be! Open, transparent, interdependent, meeting each other's emotional needs, etc.


I have definitely told her I don't like it, but not in the language Dr. Harley uses - that these are "Love Busters" for me. It wouldn't have done much good anyway, because during the heat of this battle, she has had such animosity toward me that she has pretty much said she doesn't care what I want or need or what bothers me. Totally self-focused.

Basically, in anger and frustration I have said something along the lines of "I will not be in a marriage with secrets! Married people don't have a "right to privacy" from each other to begin with, and even if the right did exist, you certainly have forfeited your "right" to it!"


Can you enlighten me on the MB/Dr. Harley definition of an affair?

You are right we have a long road ahead of us.

ok, if your mechanic listens to engines all day long for years, knows how to diagnose problems and knows how to fix them would you dismiss his advice as "biased" and say "he must be projecting his own situation?"

Is he biased or is he "experienced?"

Guess who the LEAST objective, LEAST experienced person is on this thread?

otter, you asked for help from people who know the signs, see them everyday and have saved their marriages. If you choose to ignore our advice, that is your prerogative. But please don't waste our time asking for advice if you don't want it. We all have much better things to do.

I don't appreciate being dismissed like that when many folks went to the time and trouble to try and help you. We didn't have to do it. Take it or leave it, its all the same to me.

Moving on....

MelodyLane

Why the snotty remarks? Your attitude is entirely unnecessary. I am open to advice but I am not a child that needs lecturing. I came here for help and advice from what I thought might be caring and patient people, not a brow beating.

I absolutely have not dismissed you or anybody else. I praised your wisdom and common sense in the first thread I ever read here. I wanted to hear what you have to say. That doesn't mean I can't question what you and others say as I come to terms with my dilemma. Is it the written or de facto rule on this board that all advice must be accepted without question? Bow down to the "vets" like you who know it all?

If you're confident that your advice is good, and you're interested in helping people like me, and you aren't so sensitive and impatient that you can't take some mild resistance to your counsel, you won't mind taking the time to help a newbie like me understand it.

Your experience is valuable and I respect it, but you aren't infallible.

As for your mechanic analogy, it breaks down in many areas. Primarily, a mechanic isn't as emotionally invested in what he does as those on this forum. His personal car hasn't betrayed him to the point his ability to diagnose problems on other cars is distorted. He is very likely to be much more objective. He will probably ask you to leave it with him and do a thorough analysis of all its systems. When he gives you the "treatment" needed, a good mechanic will patiently explain why it is necessary, even if you question him. If my mechanic isn't willing to do this for me, and instead tells me to fork over the money because he's the expert, I find another mechanic.

While many BS's here are no doubt sincere in their desire to help others like me, it is undeniable that some of their pain and lingering bitterness comes through in their responses. To deny it is ridiculous. I didn't condemn or "dismiss" them for it. I SAID IT IS ENTIRELY UNDERSTANDABLE and that I have been guilty of the same thing at times.

Good grief.

Ott,

While you have a great point and you may even be right, you have alot to lose.

If you hang around for awhile you will notice that many folks just get frozen and rely on hope and trust that really isn't there anymore.

The odds aren't with you Ott. The odds aren't 100 to 0, but it is much much closer to that than you realize.

Um, wow...

FYI: Not all that post here, and not even all that posted to YOU [MOI, for instance] are BSs...I posted to you, and got zero response...*shrug*...I am a FWS whose affair was with an ex-boyfriend...(familiar, no?)

Listen, your wife's reactions speak volumes to me...The anger and fierce defense of her SECRECY are GIANORMOUS red flags. I think there is more to the story than you know...I think you need to snoop to find out...

What do you think?

Mrs. W

One more thing, MelodyLane

How can you read my reply to you I've quoted and accuse me of "dismissing" you, not to mention my reply to B_S2008 in the post above yours where I discuss my excitement at recently (as in the past week) finding MB and Dr. Harley's stuff? I said I AM LISTENING and sifting through what I am hearing. What about this do you not understand?

Come on. Ease off the indignation and get back in here and help me understand where you're coming from. How about it?