Ok, been doing alot of self assesment.

I have some issues, that I am not sure how to improve. How do I speak from my heart, for what my boundries are, without LB'ing her?

I had a very stressfull weekend, Friday night after droping my oldest off with her mom, I ended up probably totalling my fathers pickup, by hitting a dear, errrrr the dear hit me i guess.

I smacked my head on the door pillar, but I feel I am ok. Doesn't hurt anymore.
I felt so alone that night it wasn't even funny, the one person that I thought I could depend on being there, wasn't, and I felt I could not call her for comfort, if for anything else.

I had a somewhat of an epiphany(sp), if that's the right word to use.

The acident scared the poop out of me, and really made me step back and think about the things that matter most in life.

Happiness, I was reading the Tall_Man's post, and I do truely want my wife to be happy, whether that means we divorce for her to be/find her happiness.
I want mydaughters to be happy as well. So I will continue to provide for them the best I know how. With my unconditional love for them.

Deep in my heart I pray to god every day asking that he touch our marriage and if it is his will, that he guide us back together, not just into the same marriage but into a marriage we both can be very proud of, and truely fall deeply in love.

I am still rather emotional from this. I still have a ways to go, to pin point my issues, and find a way to start to change.
I do so deeply want to change.

First off I realized after that deer forever changed my life, that it is me, me, that I ultimatly need to make happy.
If I with God's help, can do that, that happiness will spill over into other parts of my life, to my daughters, my work, and ultimatly to my marraige and my wife.

The sermon this morning was on "Lies", ultimatly the lie that we believe that God can't change us.
God has already changed us, we need to believe in that change, no one says it will be easy to do, but it doable.

I find myself, not driving by her apartment, and I find myself, not really wanting to know where she is.
I love her, God knows I do, she knows I do.

I am here for her for just about anything she wants, within my boundries, she wants to see reality alone? Ok, I can help you see it. I would much rather her come home, so neither of us have to see it. But I feel this is what she needs right now. I don't like it, it makes reconciling difficult. But ultimatly she needs this. I pray God touches her heart and gives her strength, wisdom to make those decisions she is making.

In the mean time, I will get me straight, or as straight as I can.

I do have a question, with valentines coming up, should I, send her something?
Should I make the card out from my three daughters, and myself, or just my three daughters.
I have never missed a day like this day or birthdays....ect
Will she be receptive of the thought?

I made pain staking decisions about not over doing the "I love you" theme, just a nice lil arangment, with candy, in a tiny lil red wagon, also with a ballon that reads, Happy Valentines day".

Input?

Or would 2 dozen roses be better?

If you want to give her something, then give her something. If you don't feel comfortable giving her something, then don't.

Don't give her something because you think she might expect it.

Don't NOT give her something because you're afraid she'll react negatively.

Maybe not getting her something would speak louder than getting her something? See my point?

IC/MC pointed out to WW and I a long time ago that we have this little game going...when one of us tries to distance ourselves the other person RUNS to them, chases them, can't bare to be without them.

Maybe a little "I'm growing tired of you..." might cause her to think twice about your situation? Don't know...only you can know the answer to that quetion.

Good luck, and HANG IN THERE!

I don't agree with that DNU1. That seems like a manipulative tactic; trying to get her to react to something other than the obvious truth. It's a passive aggressive behavior that gets them back into the same old behavioral patterns.

I still say that if he wants to give her something, then he should do so from the heart and without fear. Unconditional love means loving someone without the need to have them express it first.

Update:

Things are still stand offish with the W and I.
She still has her apartment, and still has not stayed there one night yet. Wierd.....probably could read a whole lot into that. But i try not to.

I went ahead, and gave her some stuff from me.
She drives a small Geo Tracker, it's like a go-cart with a body, anyways.... I bought her a 4' teddy bear, and a box of her favorite chocolates, and set them in her car and situated the bear holding the chocolates, and put the seat belt on him, it actually looked kind of neat.

She called me three times since then, and all three conversations went very well, the first one, we actually started talking about us, and all she could say was she was afraid things would go back to the way they were.

I did my best to not sound like I was begging or anything, but tried my best to explain, how we can make sure it doesn't, and that we have built too much together to throw it away.

Second two calls I actually got her to laugh.
Did not talk about our relationship, just about the kids, and our days.

So Friday rolls around, and our daycare has to take a personal day to go to the Dr's to have some test's done.

The W takes off from her first job, and stays home with them, and I take off work early to pick them up from her, so she can be on time to her second job.

I dressed up spifily, black slacks, shiny shoes, red satin dress shirt, with a tie. not "normal" atire for me.
I even on the Monday prior had my hair done, and had highlights put in.

I stopped on the way to her Mom and Dad's house to pick up the flowers I got her, that were from our daughters.
It was a lil red wagon, with real flowers in it.

When I showed up, she was quite shocked and just stared and smiled at me, then started asking why I was all dressed up.
I told her it made me feel good.
Then she noticed my hair and asked about that, again I told her I was taking care of myself, and that it made me feel good.

She went on to tell me how good I looked and that she liked the highlights but was shocked that I did that.

So we started walking in to get the girls ready, and she stopped in front of me, and turned to tell me something about something else. I grabbed her hand, adn she actually squeezed back a lil.

Then my heart felt like it was going to explode, and I jumped in and kissed her and hugged her, from that moment on, she acted offish, and I thought you dumba$$ why did you do that......

My god it was going so well, and after that kiss and hug, it went south in a hurry. Now she did not say anything, but I could tell I did the wrong thing, so I appologized, for over stepping my boundries, if there was a boundry for me. She said "it's ok we are still married"? ok did not sound too enthusiastic, but ok.

We got the girls ready to leave, and put them in the van, and she stayed her distance, to make sure I did not have a chance to kiss her again.

Then the girls and I left.

I felt so stupid for racing to kiss her, I just miss her so much, and I think I may have blown it.

God, why can't I fix this? Why can't I get her involved and excited about us again????

Just FYI, not that I expected anything, but she did not get me anything.

How does one truely look inward and see the things that need changed?

If one can see or find those areas that need improved upon, how do you go about changing?

My wife has made comments in the past, about me being controlling and intimidating????

I have asked countless of other people I know and are very close to, and they all say I am not those things.

I have went as far to ask my EX wife about this, and she said no, that it is her making excuses.
My Ex did tell me that I am controlling on certain things, but those things were rightfully so.
I feel that my spouse does not need to attend bars and clubs. At least not without me, and for a person that has given up drinking, I find it very hard to go back to them.

She also said that one of the other things she thought I was controlling over, is the fact of having guy's as friends, the type to hang out with and be close to.
I am sure most of you can see why this is so.

Not that I don't trust her, it is the fact I don't trust them.

I was reading something by Mort Fertel....



Those clips really made me stop and think about it.
My first wife cheated, and now my second wife "started" to cheat, or so it seemed.

What am I doing wrong? How do I see the issues I have? And how do I go about changing me?

WithinU: Reading your last two posts I think you are trying too hard. In my opinion you are pushing your marriage and yourself on your WW when she is clearly not ready.

Take a step back, relax, keep Plan A-ing and don't push. Patience.

And as far as looking inward, well that is the hardest thing anyone can do. Easy thing is to look at others and give advice. Much, much harded to look inside yourself and see just what makes you tick.

Have you tried individual counseling? Not related to your marriage stuff, but just counseling to look at your issues in life?

You are going to experience the rollercoaster...this is probably just a down cycle. Patience. Give this time. Meet her ENs, avoid love busters.

hang in there!

That's just it, how do I meet her EN's?
I have pinpointed her top EN's to be "affection, and conversation", how do I do those when we are so distant, or she is so distant?
Do I just try to meet them when ever she attempts to call? and then leave things alone afterwords?

Keep my distance?

The confucing thing is that, the past few phone calls we have had the prior week, and yes she called me several times, although she had a reason to call initially. Those conversations went very well I thought, I actually thought that wall was starting to come down, but after I mistook those conversations as "i miss you" types, I blew it by pushing myself on her.

Should I concider Plan B anytime soon? I am getting very stressed over all this up and down emotions.

Do NOT underestimate the power of those phone calls. Especially if she is calling you.

My WWs A was an EA through phone and texts for three months...before she convinced him to meet her for a hook-up.

Even if those "conversations" don't feel like you are making progress...you ARE!

Women just want to "talk." That's why you see them on the phone all the time while driving. It's in their genes. They need that emotional connection.

Hi withinU, I have read all your posts. You sure have your hands full. Your wife created an emotional vacuum. She withdraws love and so you try to fill that void. I think you wanting to take care of yourself and your girls, to make you happy is the idea.

The happier you get, the more she will regret.

When she calls I would not answer the phone. Until she calls 2 or 3 times or at least wait for awhile, unless she has the girls. It is obvious that she gets an emotional connection from that. Your kids are already getting detached from her. They will need to see her less and less as this continues. Always be happy when you see her. You have it together and you are moving past this. Stay close to her family and tell them all the fun and wonderful things you do with the kids as a family. They will convey this back to her. The less you need her, the more she will question what she is doing. Like Steve said, don't mention anything about you and her getting back together. When you don't she will talk about it more. Only talk about the kids. Do not give her any info on your life. This will restore balance in the emotional vacuum, and she will try to fill it. She must be isolated. And hear only good things about you and your life. The family can really help. They are obviously on your side. SHE HAS TO REMEMBER WHY SHE LOVED YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE. NO MORE MR. NEEDY! I hope you don't mind me chiming in. All this is only my opinion.

No I appreciate you chiming in, and would welcome anyone else with experience, to chime in and tell me to stop being so needy, or other things and help me form a game plan.

I know I am coming off as Mr Needy to her, and I want to say I never had any intentions to become that way. It's just I miss her so much, I miss my family being together and I love her deeply.

The sad thing is she is the one that decided to send emails to her ex bf and the one sneaking around looking for an apartment and the one that decided to leave, why do I feel like I am at fault here, and why do I feel the urge to do everything in my power to correct this? Why am I willing to take all the blame.

I just am having a hard time, with why I am being so helpful with her emotional vacume?

Am I in a fog? as a BS? Is that possible?

You have no blame. As yet she has not had to do without your love and emotional support. You take the blame, because with good men, you are the provider. The provider of financial support, emotional support (women have self esteem issues a lot). But we are also the providers of accountability. For our families and ourselves. Wives and women provide the unconditional love and support that in some cases (without accountability) can be perceived as license or enabling bad behavior. You have been taught that if your wife doesn't love you, that you in some way have not met her needs. But it does not sound like that is anywhere close to your situation. If you focus on the facts of her infidelity, quit chasing her, and let her come to the realization that this break-up is her choice not yours, you bring things into balance. I am not saying that your marriage will reconcile, but unless you sweep away all the false dynamics that mask the actual facts that this is her fault. She does not have to deal with it. And she can continue to focus on you chasing after her, kissing her a$$, and allowing her to excuse her actions because she can interpret your unconditional love as if you had done something wrong. She has the issue not you. Its OK to love her. But your love must take the back seat to doing what is right. Give her no physical touch, no solice, no excuses, no information on you. Once she perceives that you are pulling away. She will throw you a bone and talk about getaways, reconciliation, and a future. Don't buy into it, they are only words. Actions are and can be the only proof. Others might disagree. But I would file. and request child support from the courts immediately. You do not want to shield her from reality and be the enabler of her bad choices.

Update:

My W and I had a counseling session schedualed for yesterday 2/17/2009 @ 3:00pm. She did not show.
I was devistated, and I had told myself if she ever missed a session that would tell me everything i needed to know.

About an hour after the session was over I was at the school for my oldest daughters Parent/teacher conferances.
She called my phone, but I pressed ignore, and she left a voice message, I did not feel like answering her call, cause I was upset, that she did not hold our marriage as a priority as I did.

Later that night, I finally decided to call and check to see what she wanted.

Her mom answered and I asked if she tried calling me, and MIL told me yes, that my W tried calling me, I proceded to tell my MIL, that I was very upset that my W missed the counseling, and my MIL, was very upset as well. I could just tell in her voice.

So MIL put W on the phone, and my W proceded to appologize to me for missing the session, that she had to urgently pay her rent on the apartment, that she still yet to this day has stayed in over night, so entering the second month of having her own apartment that she has not stayed in for one solid night.

Anyways, she appologized, said she had to pay her rent and that day was the only day she could pay it.

I went on to explain, that I was very hurt and very upset she missed, that I am trying to put all my effort into our reconciling, and I do not feel the effort from her is %100.
That if she wasn't in it %100, that we were wasteing our time.

She appologized again for missing.

I then tried to speak to her about reconciling, and she shut down, so I told her OK, you are going to have to talk to me sooner or later. I hope it is sooner. When you decide to talk to me about our marriage, you know how to contact me.

Take care of yourself W, good bye, "click"


My counselor was as upset about her missing as I was, and incouraged me to seek counseling from an attorney, not to file, but to get leagl advice on what to do to protect myself.

I have a appointment set for Thursday 2/19/2009.

I feel like a big warm pile of dog "POOP", I am putting so much effort into this, and I am getting very discouraged.

Fella, you've gotta learn to stop trying to restore the marriage by persuasion.

Read the articles on how to negotiate with a WW.

Do NOT talk about marriage. Win her over!

Agree. Your trying to pursuade her is just pushing her away. Stop it. Plan A her.

Don't talk about the marriage or trying to get back together. Work on making yourself better. Show her with your ACTIONS. Exercise, keep cleaned up and well dressed. Keep the house spotless and the kiddos happy, clean and well fed. Find out her ENs and try to meet them. Avoid love busters (whinning about marriage, about working on things, etc)

Be strong. Don't be a snivling wimp. Fight for your marriage the mb.com way!

DNU is right. If I may hold your feet to the fire (accountability, its a guy thing). When you called her back listened to her apology, and then right after she nailed you again. What do you do? You asked her about reconciling. If I may make a couple of assumptions on what she thought.

"I know I should have gone to the MC. He is so pissed. I better really lay on the apologies. Wait a minute. Did he just bring up reconciliation? Cool! I get to stay in control, because he is being needy. I'll just shut this talk down right now. As long as he keeps chasing my, I can take all the time in the world to decide what I want to do. I'm not going to let him pressure me, since he wants me back so bad. This is pretty cool. I still get his love (even if their is anger with it). I still get to do what ever I want. I can keep the relationship with the other guy. And go back if I want to."

You're still thinking you can "nice" her back into loving you. You think that by being weak she will find that attractive? This is something you see ALL over the boards. As I said, you need to stop protecting her from reality (filing, child support, No contact). All you are doing is giving her time to grow apart from you by not having boundaries with her. But these are all things that you have to realize for yourself. At this point there is no one who can tell you not to chase and pursue her because you have to come to that place yourself. My opinion is not to make life easy on her. By filing you make her face the fact that if you take care of the kids, she has to help pay for them. This will increase pressure to face what she is doing, and how her life will be if she does leave you permanently.

When she said she doesn't know if she ever loved you. She said it because your love was unconditional. She didn't have to do anything for it. You are still telling her that by your actions.
Again all of this is JMHO.

Ouch is right. She's stringing you along, keeping you around so she can "make a decision" about her life. She's cake-eating and you are enabling her to get away with it. She doesn't want to make a decision. She wants to prolong this as much as possible. She's torn, but you can help her see the light.

Remember, you are trying to be rationale with someone who's brain fell out of their head! This isn't a normal thinking person, this is a person confused by the fog of an affair. Her brain chemistry is all wacked up. Talking to her, rationalizing with her, trying to pursuade her will do no good.

Take ACTION. Don't be a doormat! Set your boundaries and stick to them. If counseling is a boundary tell her. If she refuses to attend don't beg her to come, don't ask her why. When she asks about counseling say, "wow, i learned a lot about me and about how I'm growing." Don't try to convince her to go. Show her it's helping YOU.

Grow, be a better person and better Dad. Take care of the kiddos and yourself. PLan A the heck out of her. Don't talk about the relatinoship and getting back together. Don't try to convince the alien that you are the one for her...show her!

Holy cow, that is just what I needed.

I am having a hard time, finding the right words, and the right way to say the things you are telling me.

Is there a MB conversation 101, I can attend?

How do I learn how to talk that way?

Please go to Q&A in the red band on the top of the page. Go to handling conflict situations (1&2).

Please keep reading. We all have tons to process.

Good stuff DNU,

Thanks, can you explain the boudries part in detail for me?

If the counseling was a boundry, and she didn't show, what do I do at that point? Do I NOT tell her how I felt about that?