SC,

I don't see you as overreacting. You are constantly feeling the effect of having problems that remain unresolved. Though your H says he is after you his one, lack of acknowledging these as a problem to your marriage, and two, his lack of effort in solving them with you continues to haunt you and is directly opposite of what his words to you are.

What I took away from your description of the events the other day is that your H walked all over you by disregarding your feelings in looking for apartments while you were sick and also that it was an apartment that was close to his old workplace. You both had an agreement beforehand, but, once he got started he just keep going and didn't take you into consideration. That is what "really" bothered you and he then topped it off when he spent time with the blonde lady.

On one hand, he sounded excited to be looking for apartments and that is good, but, on the other he continues to disregard your feelings. He is out of touch and when you have tried to explain it is either in denial or is just plain insensitive.

I would use this opportunity to reinforce your point of view. While he states he "is after you" you need to tell him if that is the case his efforts aren't hitting the mark due to his dismissing of your feeling regarding his lack of EP's, you don't feel safe, and lack of concern when you communicate that he flirts with other women, it further reinforces that you aren't safe and it hurts you as you feel unimportant.

When you explain yourself regarding the lack of EP's, I think it is very logical. He knows he made a choice to have an A and he probably rightly recognizes it is not him but the reality is is that it was and is until he has some understanding of his weaknesses and why it did happen. And from your point of view until he gains this understanding and it is logical you are the one at risk of being very hurt by his lack of understanding.

Then, the flirting, from your point of view is more of the same. A potential weakness that could have been a contributing factor to his A and he says there is nothing wrong with it and it is an issue with you. Yes, you are likely sensitive, but, you are not dumb. What if a women reacted positively to his flirting? Doesn't it create a potential opportunity for him? Since he doesn't know how the A happened and it isn't him isn't this reason for concern from your point of view. Even if a woman doesn't react positively this hurts you. And isn't marriage about extraordinary care? And if he hurts you is he showing you care and that he is after you? At a minimum wouldn't he be concerned that it hurts you?

This is where you guide him and show him how his words don't match his actions and why you believe what you do about him and why you think it is in your best interest to leave because things just will never change as he says that this is simply your issue.

He will either start to get it and understand how his actions make you change and how his words confuse you or he will lose you.

If you talk to him about this, be calm. Steely calm. Even when he says things to upset you. When he does it, take a huge deep breath. Let him see you are doing everything to keep your calm. That this is important. It is why you went with him to look at apartments because you want the two of you to work. You also know you just can't let these issues remain unresolved.

If his words of "I am after you" are REAL, these issues need to be resolved. You need to be "heard" just like he used to "hear" you(maybe a long time ago, but he heard you at some point).

TJD you always seem to give me much food for thought and i thank you for that.

I can say that i think he "heard" me this time, i am not sure that he has ever "heard" me before, even pre-A when it comes to his "friendliness".

He kept trying to "convince" me that i was only feeling this way "now" because of the effects of the A. I think i finally convinced him that i have ALWAYS felt that way. Even though he was trying really hard.

Whenever i have these discussions with my H i usually remain calm because i try to never have them when i am angry about the situation. I ususally try to calm down and have a rational discussion about it.

He usually ends up becoming defensive and then the conversation goes nowhere so i just drop it because there is no point in "arguing" my side. I want him to see that it is not about my anger. This is a fine line to walk sometimes though. Sometimes i would just like to shake him and say "listen you shouldn't treat me like that, i don't treat you like that"

I have pretty much given up hope of him changing but i still WISH for it.

I think almost all BS's deal with this problem. A defensive spouse.

Your goal is simply to get him to hear you. If he really hears you and gets you then if he truly is a good person he will change because good people don't want to hurt others. That is why they get defensive.

So, you seem to be comfortable in not wanting to fight or be right but you would really like him to hear you and not be defensive. So, when you talk stay away from two things. One, try to stay away from saying "you" as it personalizes it. I know it is really careful but it helps with a really defensive spouse and if you come to the point of leaving you will have no regrets.

If you communicate like this, when you had an A you chose to stray and you know there is a reason why you chose this. It causes him to be defensive and all he hears and focuses on are the implied blame, even if it is right because if he is a good person he is likely sensitive about this as well. He doesn't hear the message.

Instead think about saying, when we talk about the A and recognize it as a choice that was made but we don't understand how it happened or what the weaknesses are that allowed for it to happen I then feel exposed and at risk of it happening again because we don't understand.

The other is to not have any selfish demands. It comes across as nagging and again that is all he will hear. Make a statement and express how it makes you feel and relate that feeling back to care and relate care to why you married him in the first place - he would care for you more than anyone else.

Then let him choose to care for you or not care for you.


I know. But, it isn't June 1 yet.

I usually try to use "i" or "me" statements. Like when YOU do this it makes ME feel like this. And i follow it up by saying i am not trying to blame you or make you feel bad i am just telling you how your actions effect MY feelings.

And i have pretty much given up hope on trying to get the "reasons" the affair happened out of him even though i think it would go a long way to making me feel more safe.

He just does not really like to talk about it at all even in the beginning. And now sometimes i think it is so far past the affair that i am just "bugging" him about it and we should not even be talking about it anymore. i dunno.......

So i am still just plugging along hoping that he sees the light before it is too late for me.

I don't know if I discussed this with you. The only good answers are about what happened. They are difficult to speak for the WS and the BS to hear.

"Why" most of the time can't be put into words and those that do never provide a good answer.

Does a BS want to hear because I could.

OP threw themselves at me. I was a horn dog.

I was drunk.

I thought I could get away with it.

Ego boost.

Thought you won't care.

It was only for some strange.

OP and I never did it when we dated as teenagers and decided to see what we missed.

OP was young,

hot,

hard body,

blonde if your not,

brunette if your blonde,

"Why" is over rated.

Get the Who, What, When, Where, and How, forget the Why.

I do not think "why" is over rated and yes i would like to hear that is was because she gave me something that you did not. That way i can try to give him whatever that something is. Otherwise how will i ever know if i am not giving him whatever that is and that he might try to find it somewhere else AGAIN.

And the "how" to me is the same thing as the "why".

No matter how many times you ask why you will never get an acceptable answer because there are no acceptable answers to why one would knowingly devastate their spouse.

The best you can get is a list used as justification:

I was selfish.
My needs weren't being met.
I was feeling trapped.
It was a mid-life crisis.
I wanted to know what I had missed.
I wasn't feeling attracted to you.
I hadn't felt "in love with you" for a long time.
You never___.
You always___.
You didn't___.
You can't___.
You don't___.
You won't___.

Answers differ at different times.

No matter what the answer you get it is unacceptable because there simply are no answers that will make adultery acceptable. No matter how you word it, it is unacceptable. No matter what justifications are given it is not justifiable.

Frank Grunzburg suggests that to prevent it from happening again you don't have to know "why" as much as "how."

There may be psychological reasons, physiological reasons and social reasons why a person smokes knowing that it is bad for them. None of those make it not bad for them. Knowing any or all of those things does not make one stop smoking. You don't have to know WHY you smoke in order to stop smoking. You can change the behavior without ever understanding why.

If a WS knows HOW they cheated they can avoid doing it again. If they know WHAT they did when they cheated they can prevent the same thing from taking place in the future. The why really can't be explained in any way beyond "I hurt you because I didn't care about you and wanted to be selfish. I put myself ahead of you and the marriage."

That's as deep an answer as you can get because that's as deep as the affair really was. No matter how wide, it was seldom over an inch deep.

If you want to be told why in a way that you will understand you will never know the answer. Infidelity is not understandable. It can be described but will never make sense to the BS. It is based on a lie that says going outside of marriage to have needs met is right. Nothing can ever make the lie true.

You can't make him faithful. You didn't make him unfaithful and can't ensure that he never cheats again. THAT has to come from HIM and not you. Living your life by taking responsibility for the actions of others will make you forever disappointed in yourself because you can't make anyone do or not do anything...

You can't make someone stop smoking.
You can't make someone tell the truth.
You can't make someone do what is right.

Least of all remain faithful...



Mark

Well if i go by what you say then i guess i will live my life disappointed because to me the WHY is the most important thing, there had to be reason why he chose that particular time in his life to have an A. Or maybe he has had more than one and i do not know about it.

And how is "how" and "why" any different. To me they are the same thing.

How did this happen?

Why did this happen?

Either way it gets to the root of the problem. The problem is we have never got to that root.

Crazy,

I have to agree with Mark here. And I have to say it was incredibly liberating to look my husband in the eye this weekend and say,

"YOU are the problem. YOU are the reason I am unsafe."

It boils down to a problem of the soul, a problem of character, and the BS is not responsible for that in any way, shape or form. All of my herculean efforts fell flat because I was not the problem. He was.

Chrys,

First off i want to say how sorry i am for what you are going through at the moment.

And i have decided that i must not be very good at communicating my thoughts, maybe that is why me and my H have issues with this.

I do not now nor did i ever feel "i" was the one responsible for my H's affair, it was TOTALLY him, TOTALLY his choice, TOTALLY his s c r e w up, not mine in any way shape or form!!!!

However he must have felt that "something" was not right in our marriage for this to happen. And that is what i want to know because i do not want to be the cause of his unhappiness.

And maybe it is something that i can do to change me that helps him, maybe not. Maybe it is just something that i lack and will never be able to give to him and if that is the case then why would i want to stick around and keep trying and just being miserable.

No the problem is you don't want to accept that there is no "why" to an A other than the WS being a selfish [censored] and not caring about the BS. You are making it way more complicated than it is because you can't understand how someone betrays another in such a horrible way because YOU would never think of doing that to someone. If you can't accept this then perhaps it will come to Plan D for you because you will drive yourself and even your H crazy be constantly questioning "why?"

Well in your opinion that is the case. However not in my opinion.

Why or how?

Whichever word it is or how it is sliced, I as a BS would not be able to proceed effectively in recovery without a spouse that has self reflected and gained an understanding of the slippery slope that occurred and led to an A.

The understanding of the boundaries that were crossed or the lack of boundaries. The understanding of the the dangers of the slippery slope once one goes down that path.

Agree!!!!!

Did you get a chance to look at my comments to your last post. Am i using the "i" statement wrong?

I used to say this word for word except I would say it before I said anything as a means to set the tone. It never worked for me.


When you say how it make ME feel that is very good.

I found that when I said the word YOU it brought on defensiveness. My W would feel judged, blamed, attacked when I did this. And when I kept at it I could overpower her with my rightness. I would win this one battle but was losing the war.

When I made it benign and removed much of the personalization I made progress. I did this so I could be understood. I removed the YOU's. I added a lot of we's.

"When this happens I feel this."

"When we do this I feel this."

Well "we" will try that and see if it helps to get him to "hear" me.

Again thanks for all of your help with my sitch!!!!

Crazy,

I worked hard and long to "fix" what was wrong with me. I did a halfway decent job of it, but it wasn't enough.......because it didn't begin to touch the problem with him.

I have hopes now that he is facing that problem of "him" and THEN maybe we can work together to build something that works.

Well that is where i am now. I have looked into myself and found where i was lacking and am working on changing that more for myself than anyone else.

My H has not looked at himself at all, it is always MY PROBLEM, not OURS!!!

(((Crazy)))

SC--


Not at all -- I think it depends on the listener. I am in the same struggle.


Like you, I have done the whole soul searching, "How can I improve myself as a spouse", "What did I do/not do that contributed to the marital environment prior to the affair", etc.

I have improved myself--I am a better spouse.

But I think where folks like us a "stuck" is the fear that if our spouses who had affairs either can't or won't fully explore and articulate the WHY (and HOW) of thier affair(s) then they won't see the next one coming until it's too late.

I speculate that part of the reason we want to know "WHY" is we really do want to hear something that we should have or could have done that would have prevented the affair. That way we feel we have some measure of control over whether or not it happens again. If it was out of our control, then we have to TRUST this person who intentionally and deliberately betrayed us for their own pleasure. Can't wrap my head around that.

Is it uncomfortable for them to discuss or think about? Probably.

How does that discomfort compare to the betrayal they inflicted on their families? They're getting off easy.

As I've posted before, I am still stuck on "WHY" and I have read all the responses to your post here and do see the wisdom of learning to let go of that search at some point.

But I don't think that release happens until the wayward spouse shows some effort or committment to answering the question.

The husband of one of my wife's friends recently collapsed at work and is in a coma and will probably never recover. There were times where they thought he was responding to stimulus but now the doctors have pretty much put him on death watch. They still don't know exactly what happened. If it was me and I did make a recovery, you can bet I'd have them running every test they have (and invent some new ones) to tell me why my body failed and I ended up in a coma. Not knowing the conditions and reasons for my collapse would leave me in fear that it could happen at any moment in the future.

Same thing for infidelity -- now knowing "Why" my wife decided to intentionally betray our marriage and deliberately inflict such pain on me is mind blowing.

Those that dismiss the question of "Why" have found a way around this fear that I haven't found yet.

Maybe they had a wayward spouse that was fully committed to recovery and didn't bargain, compromise and whine about the effort.

Perhaps they had a wayward spouse that actually took the lead and proactively did things instead of sitting back and being told what they needed to do.

It could be that their wayward spouse didn't blame-shift a portion of the responsibility for the affair to them and accepted it all as their own.

Maybe their spouse's affair was "easy" to explain -- they were drunk or depressed or ???????

Could be I just can't deal with the fact that the answer is "I was selfish". Selfish is something she can be any day of the week.