Your lack of a humble heart is sabotaging your recovery, Chewie. Unless that changes, sadly, I don't predict a happy ending...

That last comment of yours: "but maybe people would prefer if I not express any opinions" reminds me of something a petulant teenage girl would say - heck, our dd9 is prone to saying things like that actually...Lashing out here will not help you or Chrys...

Mrs. W

Maybe b_s, but I know many doctors with wonderful personalities/bedside manners...

The fact is, Chewie should definitely NOT be like this with Chrys...My husband is an attorney, also a profession known for this type of thing, and he is NEVER, EVER like that with me...Well actually, Mr. W is pretty wonderful to everyone, in spite of law school...

Chewie's ego will need to be checked for their recovery to be successful...Doctor, lawyer, garbage man or whatever...doesn't matter, recovery still takes this one very important ingredient: A humble heart...

I like how sexymamabear often puts it here: Sweetly Broken and Wholly Surrendered...I pray that is what happens for Chewie...

Mrs. W

Agree. It does not reflect adulthood either. Boys gain consent from their mommies; men gain agreement from their wives.

In reading back, I am struck that you seem to take happily to EP lists and the MB weekends.

But your posts on the first 10 or 12 pages totally ignored the polygraph issue that was repeatedly raised by posters.

Until that is settled the rest of this is a waste of time.

And, sorry, my bullsheet detector is going off like a Chernobyl geiger counter...

Chewie,

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you in a couple of days. I was gone the early part of the weekend and have been a little busy and just never got around to reading your thread. You buying any of this? :RollieEyes:

I'm not sure why you addressed your list of EPs to me personally, maybe that was why others didn't comment sooner.

I'm not the EPs expert so I'll have to think about what you have written before I can comment on any of them. A couple of things have already been pointed out to you. One is that you need to see this as what you must do to make your wife feel safe and not just reporting in to her. The idea isn't to gain permission but to provide safety.

The goal is not submission but transparency.

Our ENs can shift over time and often do as the result of circumstances. When we find that we have been lied to Openness and Honesty jumps to the top of our list. When any kind of affair has been discovered the BS values Honesty above all else. This subsides a bit over time but it is natural to require what has been missing in greater quantities.

But lack of Honesty is what allows affairs to happen. So for a WS to really want to prevent going back down that road they must require complete honesty from themselves. It is the most important of all the ENs when it comes to keeping ourselves faithful even though it is fulfilling the EN of the other.

How honest should we be in marriage? Dr Harley calls it RADICAL honesty because he believes only 100% honesty is required. This means that we must share everything that we know about ourselves and not just the things our spouse wants to hear from us. If we know it, our spouse should as well.

Not to get approval but to provide safety and care.


Does that make sense?

Mark

Just a toss in, when I set up EPs in September with Jennifer, she referred to them as a "gift" from WW. She also said they were FOR WW as well....to help them through that moment of weakness where they might pick up the cell phone or send an email. Now, of course, knowing they'd be busted, they'd pause and the moment may pass.

I completely agree with you, Mrs. W, and I know many, many doctors with wonderful bedside manner, etc. I totally agree that he shouldn't be like this with Chrys, but I just wonder if that's where this is coming from - his training. I think some have a harder time leaving the training at work, know what I mean?

Again, not an excuse - not an "out" to differentiate right vs. wrong. But I think if this is the case with Chewie, it may be a tougher case for him to "get it."

Chewie, overall, I think the EPs that you listed look good.

Remember that these need to be added to anytime you or Chrys see a weak spot.

lildoggie:

You are right, it's fuzzy. I'll remove the word "significant". Thanks.

Flick:

I went back and started reading your thread. I've only gotten through the first two pages, but it is already very instructive. Your insights make me think more about myself, my selfishness and shortsightedness. I will keep reviewing it bit by bit.

"Emergent" is a term I sometimes use to cover both urgent and emergency situations. The term "consent" was used to express the understanding that, at this point, I really have to acquiesce to my wife's sense of safety under any circumstance short of life and death. As a result, if she does not "consent" to something, it is off the table. The joint agreement is that we, and especially I, will do what it takes to restore our marriage.

Kiwi:

Since the affair was emotional rather than physical, any contact would be, in my view and I am quite sure in my wife's, a restarting of the affair. And your are probably right, I am quite sure there all kinds of emotional issues about which I haven't a clue. Not an excuse for any kind of wrong behavior, just a statement of fact.

broken-soul:

I suspect you will get more than a few sharp responses suggesting that you are finding a way for me to let myself off the hook, or something similar. Maybe I can prevent some of that with these comments.
I am by nature a fairly emotionally detached person. Not an excuse, just a statement of fact. I don't think medical training did that to me. As a matter of fact, many of my patients say that one of the things they like about me is that I seem to pay attention and care more than many of colleagues. But, I do think my ability to detach and "compartmentalize" made it easier for me to carry on my affair without being influenced by the obvious pain Chrys was experiencing. It allowed me to focus on my own feelings and not be in contact with any real sense of what I was doing to her. That's a character flaw with which I will have to deal moving forward.
I don't know if any of that made any sense.

Mike_C2:

I believe the polygraph is being scheduled. I'll keep you posted.

Oh,don't run your self down Chewie. I think I would agree with the paitents. You are very different IRL than on MB. You are a friendly, intellegent, funny person and a good conversationalist. Here, you come across a little 'displeased'

I read somewhere once that a persons written skills are more erudite than their verbal skills. I hope not or I am in trouble

Mark:

I posted my EPs to you because 1) I believe you had been kind enough to send me your EPs, and I wanted you to know we had been considering them in preparing our own, and 2) I don't see a button that just says "post", so I had to send them somewhere. Hope it didn't seem like I was looking specifically for your stamp of approval, because that was not my intent.
I know that Chrys' biggest needs right now are honesty and safety. The EPs help to provide a framework for both of us on the safety issue. They help Chrys to feel safe knowing where I am and what I am doing. And they help to provide me some safety if I am tempted to follow any selfish urges I may feel, because I can't do that without violating one or more of them.

It did, chewie. And I'm not afraid of a few sharp responses. I think your ability to compartmentalize is a gift and makes your career "easier" (if there is such a thing). What I mean is, you're born with something many others have to learn as interns and residents.

Now, that being said... I was NOT giving you an out. But my opinion is that docs have a "brotherhood" of sorts, like cops. You know certain personality types tend to be orthopods, CT surgeons, pediatricians, etc. and I still believe some people are completely changed in med school, as in the military, and are most comfortable with their "own kind" and the culture of that brotherhood. So I was speculating maybe you were that way, which would mean having a greater awareness of that tendency, and having to work harder than some to be mindful and aware.

I wasn't implying you're anything less than compassionate with your patients, and I hope it didn't come across that I was berating docs or anything - that wasn't my intent at all. My thought was that if this was the case with you, a slightly different tact might need to be taken.

Buuuuut....you outed yourself (which is good), and said this ISN'T the case. So along with the other suggestions you've gotten, you need to work on becoming more aware of how your behavior impacts chrys. If you're able to fully understand her point of view, it'll help guide your behavior as well. I think my FWH struggled with this as well - and still does occasionally. Do whatever it takes, man. It's going to be much harder this time around. Good luck.

Chewie,

Actually I think it was Flick that posted his list of EPs.

I can give you what we put in place for my wife after her affair if you want, but in our case they are pretty specific and not broad stroke generalities. The list is designed in our case to make it unlikely if not impossible for her to fall into another affair by accident. Much of it has to do with preventing the resentment and IB that led to the affair. She would have to set about to circumvent the EPs in order to do it again. I have no "punishment" type things on that list. Another affair will result in divorce pursued as rapidly and ruthlessly as I am able.

For me what EPs need to do is to provide a way for the FWS to avoid doing those things that led to an affair. Some of those might be punitive as in the case of a post-nup stating transfer of assets to the BS in the case of another affair, but it will be the day-to-day things that will prevent an affair.

You see, the bottom line is that Chrys simply can't do anything to ensure your faithfulness. It has to be within YOU that the changes take place and it will only be what you exhibit over time that will make her feel safe once more. A list of EPs for you to follow has to short circuit your weaknesses and not just play to your strengths. You might be very good at your normal work environment faithfulness but in one of those unique moments might not be as strong. So your EPs must provide a way for you to get out of that moment of weakness without acting on any impulses that might be far from your mind now but under the right conditions might be more difficult to walk away from.

What would you do if someone else who knew OW but did not know of the affair brought up her name and suggested that you have ANY kind of contact with her, even professional? How would you stop having contact with her under any conditions?

If another woman were to begin showing you admiration and flirting with you, what will YOU do in response that will STOP the flirting and make it clear that YOU will not participate in such activities?

These are the kind of things that are hard to put down on paper. They really can't be printed on a list or put into an email. These are things that are not to make Chrys feel safe but to provide for her safety. They are things for YOU to do to protect HER and not for her to believe you are protecting her. They aren't Chrys's list, but yours. They must not only include the "I will not" but also the "I will." In order to avoid an affair you must have a plan that stops you from having one when you are at your weakest and not feeling very committed.

It is not enough for her to feel safe. She had begun feeling safe with you once more before this latest incident. You must keep her safe. You can only do that by coming up with a method of placing her and the marriage ahead of your own selfishness at any given instant.

The "List" is supposed to be an outward indication of what has changed inside of you. That is why TST signed a post-nup that gives away the farm if he strays again. It isn't to punish him if he does but to show SMB that he has changed. Your list is but an indication of where your heart stands and where your priorities lie.

When asked what the greatest commandment was Jesus said that it was to love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength. He then added that second was to love your neighbor as yourself. If we follow only these two commandments ALL other commands and laws of God are followed by default because if the first is true we would only do what He commands and if the second where true we would never harm anyone else. From these two obedience is automatic.

And yet all the other laws were needed because no one can actually follow these two 100% of the time because we are selfish. We have to have a list of actions spelled out that we can do even when we don't feel like it. We need putting God first and others second defined in a way that we can execute a plan. This is what your list of EPs must do is to spell out how you will exhibit the extraordinary care you are providing for your marriage. It has to be your plan of action.

You are right about there not be a simple <POST> button, but it is normal protocol around here to click reply at the end of the thread and just address whoever you really want to address or even to begin a new question or topic within context of your own thread.

You can "reply to" this post and address it to B_S by name. Maybe this is easier for me to follow than some because I use "flat mode" instead of "threaded mode" and look for the greeting rather than the banner for who the post is for.

Mark

Keep us updated, I'd be interested.

Tomorrow at 3 pm

Good morning to anyone who might be out there - hopefully most of you are out living your life instead of sitting at a computer on a Sunday. Although Flick and lildoggie, I know it's Monday for you and you are out milking cows.

So I fessed up this morning. I have been back in contact with the OW since October of '07. She called me, I talked to her, and there we were again. Chrys and I were talking in bed last night, and maybe for the first time I started to feel how truly devastating this has been for her. It broke my heart (or at the least the closest thing to a heart I may have). I may be kidding myself, but I think it was that, as much as the pending polygraph, that made me talk to her.

This has all been so stupid and pointless on my part. To expend my emotional energy on a fantasy relationship that isn't going anywhere except to MAD (mutually assured destruction, for those of you who remember the cold war). Really addictive and pathologic behavior with no rational explanation. And in the meantime, my wife, who has shown more love and patience than anyone should, is suffering more than I can possibly imagine. Who was the prophet in the Old Testament who married a prostitute and kept going back to reclaim her time after time?

So now what? Polygraph at 3, nothing left to hide. Maybe a couple of days away from the office. A new no contact note to the OW on my "secret" e-mail account. Thinking about setting up a meeting with my former pastor if he is available. Put together my CV and start looking for jobs outside the area? Probably. Bad time to sell a house, but my doing. And we have to find a school system with a good support system for our autistic son. Probably end up being some damnably cold and wet place where they have to put Prozac in the municipal water.

What makes me angry about myself is how much destruction I have caused, and how completely pointless and selfish it all was. I saw that sometimes, but I just wasn't willing to let it go.

And if Chrys decides to walk away it would make perfect sense for her to do that. How much emotional abuse can anyone put up with?

So I'll check back later for all the blistering responses, which of course I will completely deserve. And I'll read them all.