I have come to the conclusion that most waywards (not all but MOST) are by nature selfish people and they will never "get" the damage they have done because they are wrapped up in their selfishness.

SC,

I hope you are doing ok.

I understand the pain you are in. I get it and it is real.

I'm sorry you continue to go through this. Take care of yourself.

SC--

I feel like we're on the same boat -- and it's taking on water.

I do think it's possible for some betrayals, and more importantly how the betrayal is handled after it is discovered, to be beyond recovery.

Reading your posts I hear the same fear I have about settling for a less than "good" (much less great) marriage because things are "OK" and our spouses aren't in active affairs.

I really don't want to find myself giving up and just going through the motions of married life because I was stubbornly committed to my marriage vows or to spare my kids, my wife and myself the drama of divorce. But I know that's a possibility.

I just don't think my wife is capable of changing enough to make me feel as if I'm doing anything but "settling".

It seems to me you're worried about the same thing.

I told our counselor much the same as you, that I felt my role as a husband was to be willing to sacrifice my happiness in favor of my wife's happiness and for her to be willing to do the same for me. He labeled that co-dependency, a concept I have yet to fully wrap my simple mind around.

It's clear to me that my wife will never put my happiness before hers for my benefit. When she does "sacrifice" for me it's most always to make herself feel better about something I did for her. She is, at her core, self-centered. Her affairs were an expression of that self-centeredness. She's not likely to change.

In the first post on this thread, you said,

That rang true for me.

I don't know how things could have gone down differently to change my perception that my wife has gotten away "scott free" from her affairs. When I ask her what has changed that should make me feel any more secure that she won't have another affair she says it's because her "view" of our marriage has changed and her "opinion" of our future has improved.

As you said, "that just is not enough". She changes her mind at the drop of a hat. I'm sure she had a "'til death us do part" view of our marriage when she said "I do" and promised to "foresake all others".

But she changed her mind (at least three times) and had affairs.

I hope you're not as far gone as I am in all this that you catch yourself hoping your spouse would slip up on some serious way that you could justify throwing in the towel.

I do -- to my discredit.

I love my wife, I work hard and sacrifice to meet her emotional needs. I know what they are and I make them a priority.

She doesn't feel the same way about mine (as far as I can tell).

I guess I'm just validating your need for a sounding board, SC.

Just putting it down in words is therapeutic and knowing I'm not the only one dealing with this after so many years is sadly comforting.

Thanks for your honesty and willingness to share.

Blessings

Artor,

My goodness your post does indeed hit home.

I think for me i do not so much expect my H to sacrifice for me all the time, just for the specific things that bother me and i try to let him know what those are in a way that is not putting the "blame" on him.

The way i see it, it is really not a sacrifice (but maybe i too am co-dependent and can not grasp that), if it is something that bothers your spouse enough that it effects your marriage then it becomes BOTH of your problem, not just the spouse having the issue. And you BOTH need to find a common ground.

With my H however he does see things this way. He feels that changing his habits (because he has always been that way is what he says), is a sacrifice. And that in turn makes me feel that "i" am not worth sacrifice to him. So how can i ever feel safe?

So yes it makes me feel like i am "settling".

I think you may be right about the handling of the betrayal rather than the betrayal itself.


This is exactly what I worry about.


Well as I said in my other post maybe this is the case for me too.


Same is true for my H.


My H says it is because he “knows himself and he knows it will not happen again”.


Well my H only had 1 affair, I can not imagine having to deal with 3, but I understand what you are saying. My H will say that “he can not believe he did it to begin with, it was not like him”. So how can you “know yourself” but yet have actions that are “not like you”, they kind of are contradicting statements I think.


I can’t say that I am like this. I would be devastated if it happened again, I could not take it. I am willing to throw in the towel without the hurt that goes with “something serious”.


Ditto, ditto, ditto (my H of course, not your wife )


I agree, for me it helps to write it out and make it thoughts rather than just this jumble in my head, even though sometimes I have so many thoughts that it comes out that way anyhow.

And I too find it “sadly” comforting to know that others feel the way I feel about their recovery.

I haven't been here in quite a while, but y'all are really hitting home with what I'm struggling with right now.
I think a truly remorseful spouse who cheated would do these things willingly and effusively.
You can't make someone else do something if they don't want to.

People on here refer to not setting the bar too low, etc in recovery. I find myself precisely there. There really have been no consequences. She seems content to give lip service while sweeping, always sweeping.

I dread the remainder of our life together being like this, but I am unable to convey what I need to her without her getting upset, defensive and "Oh poor me"...

My beard has gone almost completely white in the last year and a half...
I hope this doesn't kill me before my boy is grown.

Really challenge your H here. Don't be abusive towards him, but, be a tiger on this issue. Stick up for yourself.

He made a choice to have an A. A choice. It didn't just happen to him. He made a choice.

There was a reason this happened. There was a reason he made this choice. There is a reason why he allowed this to happen.

You know his response makes no sense. Don't let him walk all over you. Stick to your guns.

Will you be okay financially if you leave June 1? Is there anything you are dependant on him for?

SC

I am sorry you are struggling so much. I truly do understand how you feel as I am feeling the same way off and on myself.

You wrote


This is bad. Very bad. I know because I have done the same thing. I still do it and it breeds resentment. Lots of it.

Now, let me be clear. MR SC is neglectful. Hands down, blatantly neglectful. You have reason to be upset. However, your sacrificing is settling up an impossible dynamic and your relationship *will* fail

Have you read Harley's "buyers, renters and freeloaders"? If not, RUN and get it. Its eye opening

TTH it seems there are more of us that are struggling with recovery than we know. There has been a lot of similar posts in the Recovery section lately.

But maybe we can all take something away from all of this discussion to help us in some way even if it is just a better understanding of our spouses. I know that is my hope.

My H gets defensive with stuff as well, and it is hard to find that fine line between letting your feelings be known without trying to "blame" the other person. But i have to admit that i sometimes get defensive as well, this is something i have been working on for myself.

Well just keep plugging along i think that is all we can do for now. And post anytime you want. It does help me to write things down. It at least gets it out of my head for a little while.

TJD I have pushed this issue hard with my H. To me this is really the "why" part of the A.

He does admit that it was his choice to do it, but his "reasons" are always the same thing, he does not know why it happened, it was not like him, and he can not believe he did it is all he will ever say.

And i will be able to afford to live on my own. I will not be able to have a lot of extras, but that is okay.

And I am not dependent upon him for anything. Heck he does very little for me so i have always been the one that he depends upon.

JK i have heard this time and time again and even what i have been reading on your thread.

To me though and i am sure that i am strange on this particular issue, i do not see the things i do as sacrifices because I do not feel i give up "myself" in the things i sacrifice. To me it is more not being the cause of my spouses unhappiness.

If i can watch a baseball game instead of a movie and it gives us more time together then i do that. My H would just go to a different TV to watch the baseball game instead of sitting and watching the movie with me. These are the things that i am talking about when i say i sacrifice to make him happy.

I would never make a sacrifice for my H that is something i strongly believe in. Like the ENIL issue, i do not want him at our house, my H brings him over anyway, but then my H suffers because i will not be around him while the ENIL is there.

Why is an overated question. Answer is never satisfing.

Once you have found out as much of what happened as you need to know then leave it alone.

Sorry Road but i disagree with this. To me the "why" is very important. That is how you change to help ensure it does not happen again.

You've told him you will leave on June 1.

Then you go look for apartments with him probably to show him in good faith that you would love for it to work out between you two but he just walks all over you almost like he doesn't believe you will leave.

He made a choice to have an A and agrees with this and then gives excuses. As long as you receive excuses and he demonstrates a lack of understanding of what he has done you will never feel safe, as you already know.

I don't see the value in looking for apartments with him. You can point to your lack of feeling safe due to his lack of understanding how he did something that was so painful to you. So, it can clearly happen again and thus why you are leaving June 1.

Well yes this pretty much sums it up!!!

What does he depend on you for?

I have always been the one who carries the health insurance, i also have our life insurance through my work, i set up all of his doctors appointments, i do all of the running for the kids appointments, i do all the electronic stuff because he is technologically challenged, i do all the carpentry fix it projects as well, we pay others to fix the cars.

That is all i can think of right now.

SC,

I barely read on the recovery board anymore, but I was wondering what was up with you and mvg. WHOA! is all I can say.

When you move, are you going to go dark? Trust me when I say that you will gain insights into who you are and how you handle things and this may force change in you, for the better, which is not a bad thing.

Also, you WILL, eventually, want to be with someone. NEVER SAY NEVER. Never ever ever ever ever say never. Just because you can CHOOSE not to be with anyone ever again, doesn't mean the desire won't exist. Just sayin'...

I know exactly what you are living in, and it is a slow torture. Saying "I'm sorry" does not erase the offense. Actually, I agree that an apology is not necessary to recover, but the ACTIONS, jumping in with both feet, THAT is the stuff recovery is made of.

It's so very difficult to do all that you need to, as a BS, in order to recover, when you still do not feel safe. Sure, the Z left his phone out for me to see, begrudgingly gave me access to his email, MySpace, etc. What the F... does that matter when the man wouldn't even touch me? He would not confide in me, when he was sad/happy/hurt/angry/whatever. He barely looked at me. I would have loved to hear what he thought, because THEN I could set about changing and giving him what he needed. Anyway, blah blah blah, that's in the past.

I've learned a great deal about myself, and some things that I now see, that I don't like so much, I am slowly changing.

You can only do so much.

I hope June 1st comes quickly for you.

I had hoped to see some turnaround by now.

Hey SL great to hear from you. I read “The Killer B’s” threads all of the time but like you do not really post as I am at a different place than all of you (I guess I kind of am but I LIVE with my spouse )


That is my intent; I have no desire to even speak to him again after I leave. I am not sure if he will leave me alone is the issue I wonder about, we will see.


This may be true, I do not feel that I will at this time in my life, but I suppose if a time does come where I feel I need the attention of a male and my H has not already taken the necessary steps then I will start D proceedings. Until that time (if it happens, not saying it won’t but I feel pretty certain I do not want to give it a try again), if we divorce it will have to be him to do it I am sure that he will though, he will not be able to handle being alone.


You are so correct with this. His words basically mean nothing to me they lost their meaning when he lied to my face so easily during his affair. And his ACTIONS speak pretty loud to me that his “feelings” are still more important to him than “our” marriage.


Yes for you it was EXTREMELY difficult because you not only had the “emotional cold shoulder” but the “physical cold shoulder” as well. My goodness I do not know how you tried as long as you did.

My H is not that way at all; he is very affectionate to me because I have told him that I like that. He does a lot of things that I have asked him to do for me but (why does that “but” always seem to follow I should be thankful for what he does do somehow I am not), they are mostly “words” as well. He does follow up with some ACTIONS on things, he just is a very self centered person I think and if he has to change anything about himself that makes him “feel good” (ego boosts) then I am over-reacting or it is my issue not his.

By reading MB even without him saying so I can tell my Hs #1 EN is the need to be admired, probably even to the extreme. I try to show him admiration a lot but I think it is almost an obsession with him and my admiration is just not enough. I dunno…….


I too have learned a great deal about myself thus the feeling that I have to leave. I just have finally decided that I do not want to go through the rest of my life feeling like I am my spouses “second best”. I do not think I am “second best”, I think I am number 1. I just feel like I am HIS “second best” and it is no fun at all.

Well you take care of yourself and that DS of yours. Is Arizona still is the future?

I just had to post my Hs response about me getting upset about the aprtment lady.

He said "What do you think i am after a 25 year old?" I said yes that is what i thought. Then he said "no i am after you".

Is this just a way to try to divert attention from his actions? Or maybe i am over reacting? I dunno i just know that it bothered me alot.