Artor i will get to your post in a minute.

I just was thinking last night (and what i am about to say i know is OBVIOUS ) that infidelity really just SUCKS all the way around.

When i met my H he was in the Navy, when he got out of the Navy most of his old friends had went their own way and i had been out of high school for a while and was attending college but i too had very few friends at the time we got together.

So we became each others best friend and for the most part we still are. So for 20 years i LOVED my life (things changed when the ENIL moved in with us). Sure we had are issues everyone does and i have always hated his "friendliness" but i did not let it bother me as much and my H for the most part was a good H.

However since the infidelity even though our life is pretty much the same as it was for those 20 years that i LOVED my life, now it just does seem the same. What i thought was a "normal" "good" marriage is just not enough. I question everything now and it drives me CRAZY!!!! Why is that?

I am sure that my H thinks well this is how it was for the first 20 years and we were happy why should i change anything. I dunno maybe he is right, maybe you just have to put it aside and go on with life. But d a m n that is really hard to do!!!!!

Thanks, sometimes by some of the posts I receive it just feels that way I guess so I wonder if my H “hears” what some on MB “hear”.


This is so true. Because they do not understand their weakness and appear to not want to try to understand them it we will always be wondering not if but when it will happen again.


I speculate this is true as well, maybe we have control issues I dunno…… But I truly agree that without the “why” we will have to FULLY trust someone who has shown that they can not be trusted.


I am sure it is uncomfortable for them but as you stated is it easy for us, heck no. And I am sure that part of that is because they were just selfish and are afraid to admit that to the person they vowed to love, honor, and cherish.



Totally agree with you on this too. And I am happy for those who either got or do not need the “why”. I am not one of them though, it is something I feel I need to recover. I may never get the “real” why but I can not go forward with recovery without him even trying to figure it out.


True and I believe that being selfish is PART of the reason it happened, but I know there has to be more to it than that otherwise like you said is he going to be selfish a

Artor and SC,

I too looked for a reason "why" it happened. I thought that if I answered WHY I could answer these...

What can I do to prevent it from happening again?

What could I have done that would have prevented it from ever happening?

OK. I was not perfect. I could have, should have and might have done some things better or differently or more consistently etc...

I can fix those things...

But maybe because this was not her first affair I also realize that those things did not make her have an affair. Whatever caused the affair was inside of her and not me.

What that means to me is that the reason for the affair was not really within my control. It wasn't MY fault at all.

If I had met her ENs perfectly she would not have had the affair. (Maybe) This assumes that I will always be able to meet her ENs perfectly, will never have a slip up, a lax period or have circumstances prevent me from doing it. It makes her faithfulness MY job. It means the affair really was MY fault.

(Side note: When I experienced my infection I was unable to meet much in the way of her ENs at all. I laid around and she took care of me. I didn't work for a while, made little money when I did, was in pain much of the time and pretty much left everything up to her for a couple of months. During that time we got CLOSER and she did not have an affair. But she spent a weekend with me the year before, going out, having fun together, buying things she wanted and acting like we were teenagers dating all over again and the NEXT WEEKEND began calling OM whenever I was not around her and sending him pictures, poems and short stories starring him and her. WHY?)

If I had been a better husband she would not have had the affair. (Maybe)

If I had made more money she would not have had the affair. (Maybe)

If I had FORCED her to spend more wisely instead of spoiling her by letting her spend money with impunity for all those years I might have been able to retire early and she would not have been alone in the vicinity of OM and the affair would not have happened. (Maybe)

But I listened to her in the early days of our marriage and took a job making a LOT of money and being away from home a lot and letting her spend as she felt at the time.

And she had an affair. (more than one really)

But things changed, she changed, I changed, my job changed and I made less but never traveled overnight for business any more. Our kids were grown, we were spending more time together than even before we married and were looking forward to retirement together. We were both active in the church and were held up as the couple to emulate in order to have a successful marriage (But it wasn't enough) and she had another affair.

So today her 2 biggest complaints are: 1) I don't make enough money and 2) I'm not around when she needs me.

The fact is she only needs me when there is something that she can't handle that MUST be taken care of and she has no patience to wait till I get home (I can't trouble-shoot the dryer via phone while waiting on customers with my boss bringing me stuff to do simply because I am on the phone)

And I did not spend the money I made when I worked 75+ hours per week because I was working all the time. I did not spend the 67K I inherited from my mother when she died and I did not use every credit card I could get to buy stuff that sits around till it is not working from lack of use and care. She is the one who has bought 4 cars without any input from me over the past 35 years. I call to make sure we can afford it before I spend an extra five bucks on lunch.

What I found when I really looked at things was that I withdrew when she began to withdraw and her IB was destroying my love for her. My Love Bank was empty, in the red, depleted and CLOSED.

She had the affair and not me.

If not getting ENs met caused affairs I should have had them. If what a spouse does or does not do causes one to have an affair, I should have been sneaking around with some floozy that I met through my job (where I have met some real doozies when it comes to floozies).
If having an empty Love Bank were all that mattered, I should have had at least one LTA.

So WHY didn't I?

Because I didn't, that's WHY.

And SHE DID.

And that is WHY.

She had the idea that going outside of the marriage to get anything in the way of needs was right. That is WHY.

She thought she could have an affair and it wouldn't matter in the big scheme of life. That is WHY.

SHE decided to have an affair. That's WHY.

And I can't control what she decides to do.

If only I had...

What?

When?

How?

Would it have prevented the affair?

Maybe...

But then her being faithful is MY responsibility and not hers.

And MY faithfulness is HER job and not mine.

And yet I did not have an affair when my ENs went unmet and she did have one when hers were being met pretty well according to her both then and now.

So she had an affair because she DID, COULD, DECIDED TO and THOUGHT IT WAS RIGHT. That is WHY.

And NONE of those things are under MY control.

Will she have another affair?

I have no idea.

I know she won't have another recovery, at least not with me.

As long as she knows how to not have another affair, we don't have to worry about another recovery.

Whether or not she understands WHY she had the last one really doesn't matter to me, because I know I had no control over why she did. If it was MY job to keep her faithful it was also HER job to keep me faithful. She failed miserably to do what it took for me to remain loyal to her and yet I DID NOT have an affair and she did. So my faithfulness has to be inside of ME and that means hers must be inside of HER.

And that means I can't do anything to make her faithful in the future. I can do things to make the marriage better and more enjoyable for both of us. I can meet her ENs and avoid Love Busters, but I can't make her not have an affair. SHE has to do that on her own.

And what is different today than back then is that we now have tools to work with that we did not have. We have a common language to express when we are not having our ENs met and we can communicate with each other and describe Intimacy, Conflict and Withdrawal in ways that they mean the same thing to both of us and so the excuses are gone if not the reasons.

Mark

Mark,

You are saying alot of good things. They all make sense.

My but is this.

There are reasons for an A. And, there are no excuses.

Because of this Dr. Harley recommends just compensation. That just compensation includes establishing EP's to eliminate the conditions that allowed the A to happen, to spend 15 hours of undivided attention together, meeting of EN's to be the source of one's happiness, eliminating LB's to not be the source of one's unhappiness, and use the POJA with enthusiastic agreement to insure a lifestyle that both enjoy.

SC is/has been struggling to get even started on just compensation. There are no EP's in place. Her H hasn't spent time on understanding the conditions that caused the A in the first place. Much less any of the other things related to just compensation and recovery.

And thus, SC is struggling and rightly so.

So, if she is to get just compensation and start recovery EP's are a great place to start. And, these EP's could very well be related to her second biggest complaint with her H, that he flirts and it hurts her. This flirting could very well have created one of the conditions that made his A possible.

If this is a good place to start, and it was probably the hardest thing for me to accomplish, how do you get a reluctant spouse to engage in a program of recovery like Dr. Harley has put together?

TJD you are correct with this post. Right on exactly.

While i agree with Mark that "i" did not, could not, change my H having an affair or even prevent him from having another one. He needs to understand that his actions need to change for me to feel safe in our marriage again.

I understand this completely. And that is where I would try to focus my attention because no matter whether you, SC, understand the affair in depth or not one tiny bit, it is still going to have to be HIM that prevents anther affair.

He has not done what he needs to do to make you feel safe. I get that... BTDT. I lived like that for a long time and was always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Eventually it must be YOU to make the decision if you are staying under these conditions or pulling the plug on the relationship.

What could you do that would leverage him in any way into changing his perspective? (Yeah, I'm talking about manipulation here, of the worst kind, the kind that causes him to see that he could come out of this having actually lost something of value...That would be YOU, SC.)

He won't do what HE needs to do. That is a WHY question to answer. Is it that he doesn't think he needs to do anything? Does he think the affair WAS your fault? Does he think having an affair is no big deal and not worth worrying about? Does he think that hurting you was perfectly alright? Is he just a vicious person who takes joy from hurting others?

Now we get to the 64 thousand dollar question...

Are you willing to leave him UNLESS he does something specific?

Are you willing to walk away from the marriage because you don't feel safe in it?

Is what YOU need important enough to do without HIM if you can't get it from him?

Rather than end up eaten alive by resentment, despair, frustration and unmet ENs of your own and therefore much more vulnerable to the same thing that befell your marriage because of his choices...

You can't fix him.

You can only define what you will and will not accept from him. If he will not provide it, the ball is back in your court. What are you willing to do with it?

The bottom line is that he had an affair because he decided to do it because he was not thinking of you at all when he made that decision. He still does not consider you important enough to take into account when making his decisions and you will never feel safe until he begins to do that. If he doesn't are you willing for things to stay as they are forever?

If not, focus on what you can do that might be able to get through to him.

The problem, of course, is that you can't make him care.

You can communicate what you need in various ways; you can let him know that you do have a limit beyond which you will not travel for him and you can try to find a way to get through, but only you can decide what you are willing to tolerate going forward and THAT is what you need to find a way to communicate to him. When you say "...or else..." you have to have an "or else" in your pocket.

Still has nothing to do with why I'm afraid...

Agreed!!!


I have already made that decision however i am still praying for a miracle.


I believe he thinks he doesn't need to do anything, but i am not him and can not say for sure.


Yes


Yes


Yes


He is aware that i am moving out on June 1, 2009.


Leave


No i am not going to live that way forever. And the reason i am here is to get suggestions on how to get through to him because i am "thought" out. I have tried many different approaches throughout our 25 years.


The "or else" is in the pocket already and the one and only other time in our marriage that i gave him an "or else" i followed through with it so i am sure he is aware that it is not just a threat.

SC,

Thought of you when I read this one.



Eleven people were hanging on a rope, under a helicopter. 10 men and 1 woman.
The rope was not strong enough to carry them all, so they decided that 1
had to leave, because otherwise they were all going to fall.
They weren't able to choose that person, until the woman gave a very
touching speech.
She said that she would voluntarily let go of the rope, because, as a
woman, she was used to giving up everything for her husband and kids or
for men in general, and was used to always making sacrifices with little
in return.
As soon as she finished her speech,
all the men started clapping.......

SEND THIS MAIL TO AN INTELLIGENT WOMAN, SO THAT SHE HAS SOMETHING TO SMILE ABOUT TODAY

TJ

Hi TJD!



end TJ

E.

Hey eeyoree,

Good to hear from you. It sounds like you are doing an excellent job applying MB's to improve yourself and it sounds like it is working wonders.

I hope you and your H are doing well.

That was too funny !!!

Thanks i needed that!!!

TJs welcome anytime

Hi SC,

I've read this thread sporadically but have little to offer in addition to what's been said to both you and Artor. (BTW, after my first post 2 years ago, I almost left MB after 6 hours, 30 views, and zero replies....until Artor responded, twice, and I'll be eternally grateful.)

Mark's post above is close to what I've experienced to progress to where we are today (details in my sig line).

Back on D-Day #4, when I was done, ready for plan D and determined to make it on my own, alone, in my 50's ~ and, I might add, in menopause ~ I saw myself starting over. And I was OK with it. My attitude and actions SHOWED that I was done.

That got my WH thinking.

He changed.

We have made a full 360 turn (-> bad M ... <- A=plan D ... -> great M) in the last couple years.

I'm sharing this only to tell you that I still have thoughts like you and Artor. Last weekend was especially brutal. But I still choose to look forward to what we both want (fulfilling M) in spite of the setbacks when FWH reverts back to something stupid from when our M was turning 180. (He still hides health issues and when I discover them, it triggers me back to when I found his heart meds in his truck ~ while looking for a throw-away phone during D-Day #1.)

A few other factors I can't divulge publicly are also involved but it comes down to my choice. I couldn't continue on this rocky recovery road without my confidence that I could and would do fine on my own. And my FWH knows it, still chooses to change with me and we're moving along.

Does your H know you're OK without him now or are you hoping he'll realize it June 1st when you're gone?

In closing, I, too believe in marriage miracles (often feel like we're living one every day).....but could your decision to "let him Plan D" be putting the ball in the wrong court, and possibly bouncing the makings of a miracle away from you?

IOW, how would your dynamics change if YOU instigated Plan D to get your freedom, instead of waiting for HIM to prolong your pain?

In creating other thoughts to try to help you get un-stuck, I realize that this may be off and I might be in left field. If I am, at least my intentions are honorable.

Wishing you the Best,

Ace

Ace,

I suppose that what you say about the Plan D could be possible except for the fact the i have never really mentioned it one way or another.

I simply told him that i currently did not feel safe in our M, these are the things that make make me feel unsafe, if i do not feel like you are at least trying to make me feel safe then on June 1 i am getting my own place, and once i do that you will not get a chance to try to make me feel safe again.

So although i did not exactly say i was filing for divorce, i also did not exactly say i wasn't KWIM?

I still have not given up hope for my miracle although i am not holding my breath either. More to follow.......

SC

Well like i said to Ace i am still hoping for a miracle although i am not holding my breath either.

For some reason i feel like we may have made a break through. When i mentioned to TJD that a couple of weeks ago i think my H may have actually "heard" me for the first time in 25 years regarding his "friendliness".

Maybe it was because he was the one that brought up the conversation i dunno but it just seemed like he "heard" me that day (after trying to convince me that i only felt that way about his "friendliness" because of the A) and he has been ACTING differently since that day.

We had such a wonderful weekend (actually the last two weekends have been wonderful), we were out both weekends just doing lots of different things (actually most of my favorite things) and he was very attentive to me and asked what i wanted to do and did what i wanted to do and he was not overly "friendly" with ANYONE both weekends.

So i am quietly excited about this new progress, we will see.....

Anything can happen..........

I'm quietly excited for you, too, SC...and I sort of hope you don't read this for a long time because you're out with your husband/family making those memories you've been longing for all these years!

Yes, anything CAN happen, but I'm praying that these recent events are the beginnings of that miracle we'll continue to pray for! Focus on the big picture, keep a lid on the LB's, meet his ENs with all you have within you, (and vent here instead of on him if you have a setback).
May your progress continue!

All the best,

Ace

Many folks call this stuff a roller coaster. If the A is not ended and NC is not in place I tend to agree. You just follow wherever the roller coaster takes you. It controls you unless you decide to get off of it.

If the A is ended and NC is in place I tend to think that a roller coaster isn't the right analogy. I tend to think more in terms that things tend to snowball. Things tend to snowball in the good direction and they tend to snowball in a bad direction. Many times something simple, little, can start the snowball in either direction and then things double upon themselves very quickly.

So, as a marriage the two people need to spend time understanding what causes things to snowball.

What causes it to go in a good direction?

What causes it to go in a bad direction?

How does it build upon itself?

In which direction does it snowball the fastest?

Is there a way we can keep it from snowballing in the bad direction?

How hard is it to stop the snowball when it goes in the bad direction?

Why is that?

Can we stop the snowball from going in the wrong direction before the snowball gets too big?

Marriage partners can and do have an effect on these things.

I would tend to agree with you on this.

I am hoping that the snow goes away at my house for a while !

Ok, here's for 80's and sunshine at the SC residence

So things have been going great and i have been feeling good about things and he has been feeling good about things and then today something happened that kind of bothers me. Maybe i am making something out of nothing but it just took me back to A time.

I tried all morning to reach my H via his cell phone (just to say I love you) and it kept going straight to voice mail. When i finally reached him (at around 10:30 am) he said that he had just left the office and had just turned his phone on (which is not his normal he usually has it on all the time and when i call him and he is in the office he just tells me to call him back later), but yet he was at a gas station using the bathroom while i was talking to him. (he works outside at different locations so this is normal for him).

However why would he turn his phone off while he is in the office and why would he go to a gas station to use the bathroom if he just left the office. I would think it would have been easier to take care of that before you leave the office.