D&C:<P>You're right. I guess in retrospect my W had let me know something was wrong with the "friendship". But looking back, I can see she wouldn't acknowledge that she had anything to do with our alienation from one another. Fourteen years after that first "friendship" ended she still can't understand "WHY". The terrible part is that there were other "friendships" and I guess we did talk about them, but I could never get my W to talk about "US". She insisted that she was doing everything she was "supposed" to do and that I just wasn't getting with the program. So I guess I ignored her and found solice in my "friendships". What bothers me the most is how easy it is to enter into these "friendships" and how large the pool of "friends" is. I guess we are truly hedonistic inside. I can remember me and the OW crying about what a terrible thing we were doing and then comfort each other as we did it anyway. Maybe if my W would have screamed and hollered about "us" instead of just nagging 'me', it might have made a difference. Any clue?<P>Flip<BR>. <BR>

Flipper<BR> you remind me so much of my husband.Why is the responsibility of your friendships on your wife's shoulders?? I have a very close male friend, but thats all it is.We have limits, we dont cross the line, we dont talk about anything that we couldnt talk about with my husband and his wife listening.We dont keep secrets, he helps me to see my husbands side of things like I help him see his wifes. My husband says if I would have been paying attention I could have prevented his affair.Gosh, I thought he was a grown man,I thought he knew to look both ways before crossing the street.Just dont try to<BR> throw the blame to somebody else.I think<BR> a person knows when its going to far,I think you know it and you let it happen anyway.

Sorry to not offer any positive info .... my affair started the EXACT same way.<P>

So you guys think it's impossible to have opposite sex friends without threatening your marriage? Come on, people. I don't doubt that alot of affairs may start that way, but only because your spouse CHOSE to do it.<P>I have a lot of different friends - men and women. I feel very strongly about one of my women friends but I know it doesn't threaten my marriage.<P>I don't care much for golf, football, wrestling, stock car racing, or hunting. I like deep intelligent conversation. I don't find too many men who are willing to go there. So where do I get that? - my wife and my women friends.<P>I'm not discounting your experiences, but be careful about broad generalizations and jumping to conclusions.<P>I started reading this forum because I was worried about the feelings I had for my friend. A good counselor finally convinced me that it's OK to have these feelings - but you CHOOSE what you want to act on.

Whoa. Prepare for the onslaught.<BR>

Oh, it's possible to have opposite-sex friends...but not the kind of close, intimate relationship you have with your spouse...or you might even have with a same sex friend (women more than men). <P>I've had male friends where there was never anything else, nor would there ever be, because there was no attraction at all, at least on my side. But I did have a male friend once about whom I started feeling more than just "friendly" -- and it was at a low point in my marriage.<P>In ALL of my male friendships, including the one I became attracted to and found a new job so as not to become involved, my H was always informed of when I saw them, who I'd be with, where I was going, and I ALWAYS invited him to come along -- in short, wanting to INCLUDE him in the friendship.<P>And that's the difference. For all that my H now takes me to parties where PSBFH will be, he is still friends with her behind my back, still sees her and doesn't tell me, and there's still this "just him and her" element. And therein lies the problem.<P>Sure, you can CHOOSE not to become involved. But it's hard once those wheels get rolling. I left my job because I was about to either make a huge mistake or make a fool of myself, depending on the guy's level of interest. And it was HARD to leave. Not because I loved the job so much, because it was time to move on anyway, but because even at that early stage, before anything had happened, I didn't want to "lose" this guy. All the more reason to do it, I decided. But it took a lot of strength of will.<P>

You added the part I left out -<P>Yes, it's important that your spouse know about these relationships. It's important that you include your spouse when possible.<P>I agree that sneaking around and intentionally excluding your spouse is bad behavior.<P>Thanks for helping out with that D&C.

CutieP:<BR>Never tried to throw "all" blame her way. I know I did what I wanted to, but it wasn't totally without help, Yes I am very responsible for what "I" did and by the same token she is very responbsible for what happened to her. These things are not one sided and if W keeps thinking that then we get nowhere. <P>I knew what I was doing all the time. I even commented on how OW and I both agonized over what we were doing and we still did it. I guess knowing what the "right" thing is and doing the "right" thing are two separate animals altogether. Just try to realize that No One is blameless.<P>Flip

BlindSided--<BR>I agree that you have a choice not to act on your feelings...but, for me feelings are what made me want to act.<P>I felt that if I had these feelings for the OM that they must be real, that we must be meant to be together, that we were soulmates. The key for me (and I'm assuming others) is to not allow yourself to get emotionally close the a member of the opposite sex. In my situation my heart lead over my head!

BS,<BR>I just love it when some people say "*I* could never cheat! I have lots of women friends and I just don't choose to go farther." Basically, you are saying --hey, my will is bulletproof and you all are weaklings. Well, bud, I thought the same thing before it happened to me. I used to love getting on my soapbox about everyone else's immorality. Pride goeth before a fall, dear. And just because a "counselor" says its ok doesn't mean its ok. Your wife's opinion is the only one that counts. Now that I'm divorced, I won't date a guy that has lots of women friends. I think guys who feel the need to have women friends separate from their wives are passive aggressive. Same goes for women who have lots of men friends. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 20, 1999).]

Hi The Student<P>I thought what you said about men who have lots of women friends being "passive aggressive" was VERY interesting. <P>Could you elaborate a little on that? I mean, it sounds right to me but I'd like a little more info on the passive-aggressive/opposite sex friends connection.<P>Thanks in advance!

Samantha-MI --<P>My W is/was friends with OM and his W. OM's wife was her "best friend". Don't soooo many affairs start this way -- spouse of close friend.<P>What I'm getting to is that my W is friends with both. You would think that a relationship like that would PREVENT her from crossing over to an affair, but I 'm affraid it didn't work that way in my situation. NJo sure if if got sexual (My W says no), but she also says that there is no emotional involvement either. However, she admits to sharing insights into each of our marriages. I've got problems with that!!!<P>Also, she just turned 40. Midlife crisis? probably a factor, although I guess if I hadn't allowed her other opportunities to drift away years ago, that too would have been insignificant.<P>Also says that I've become controling, using my confrontation re:this suspicious "friendship" with OM and an marked increase in drinking as evidence. Yet, in counseling, she confirmed that I was NEVER controlling -- EVER -- until the last year or two. This after 15+ years of marriage, and three+ dating.<P>Re: CutieP -- I'm curious re: the fact that a "good counselor" told re kay to be friends with opposite sex. Was that a good counselor, or a counselor that supported a position you wanted to hear. An important distinction.<P>Again, talk, talk, talk if something about this friendship is troubling you. Talk BEFORE it becomes too late and too difficult on everybody.<P>Good luck!

FNM,<P>Welcome to our little sanctuary. You are certainly getting some quality info here from some of the best folks a round. <P>I can only add that my wife started down this path as well. her and this OM were just friends. She pursued him continually until he finally gave in to her advances.<P>I found out after the damage was done and have spent a considerable amount of time trying to win her back. <P>Keep in mind that you are visiting the infidelity forum so our views are some what biased. I'm sure there are many folks who can have opposite sex friends with out it going to something deeper, but I for one have been tainted with the idea that it is impossible. <P>I wish I had advice for you that would keep your stay here short. you are in a difficult situation to say the least. I offer my prayers to you that your wife and this "friend" keep their relationship from going further than what it is. I hope they do not become blinded by what can happen to them and those around them. Infidelity is a horrible state to be in. The pain is overwhelming at times. <P>We are here to help you my friend.<P>SHA

Blindsided,<P>I also thought it could be done. IT CAN'T... you're putting yourself and your spouse in a very precarious position if you think you can honestly be anything more than cursory friends with a person of the opposite sex.<P>Student,<P>Regarding:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Basically, you are saying --hey, my will is bulletproof and you all are weaklings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's exactly how his post made me feel. When my H had affairs, I thought I would NEVER EVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS do it. I am a Christian, albeit a weak one right now, and I have MORALS, dammit! So, you can imagine my horror (and can see why I nearly ended up in a mental hospital) when I did the unthinkable and had an affair. THE WORST MISTAKE OF MY LIFE. And luckily, a short one, so that rebuilding could begin right away. <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

To everyone that responded,<P>I am completely overwhelmed by all the responses. This website and all of you are incredibly caring. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. <P>I see that I am not alone in my feelings. I also see that my future seems bleak. <P>Dazed and Confused - You certainly seem exasperated by all of this and rightly so. Your post meant a lot to me. I have also been doing what I guess is called a Plan A. I have also stopped all outside activities and concentrated all my efforts of my wife. She has been the center of my universe too. I actually have that book by Susan Page along with many others I have been reading. I have been trying to change me and for the most part I think my wife likes it. Our marriage seems better than it was a year ago, but I still am not happy. I hurt because she sees this other man. I hurt because she desires to talk to him and mail him. I feel he is getting in the way of our marriage getting better and she doesn't care. Or maybe she just doen't think he is getting in the way. I don't know.<P>My wife seems very happy with the way things are. It is almost as if she has another life a part from me and that is OK with her. When I try to talk to her about this she does get very defensive and she thinks I am too possessive of her. She resents me for not allowing her to have friends. She said she wants autonomy. Stupid me I had to look that up. I didn't like what I read. How can you have autonomy in a marriage?<P>Flipper - My heart hurts after reading your post. The progression of what happened is what I fear. I have tried to get my wife to read some of the books I have, she won't. My problem is that when I try to talk to her about this she does get defensive, and angry, and resentful. She says nothing is going on. And why can't I let her have any friends. Perhaps she is already brain numb as you state. This other man is married too. From his emails, it seems that he could drop this friendship without a problem but my wife keeps it going. In some ways, I think he is a little uncomfortable with it. <P>Simone - A couple months ago, I asked my wife what her needs are so that I can make sure to meet them. She said there is no way one person can meet all the needs of someone else. She did tell me a few and I have been working on those. She didn't want to ask me what I needed because she felt she was giving me all she could right now. We are having sex more now then we were a year ago. It seems I am the one who initiates it all the time though. It is nice and she seems very loving during that time. I hold her and kiss her a whole bunch during that time because I don't want it to end. I wish our frequency was higher, but she is only want to get together every other week or so. She says she is just too stressed for anything more right now. Thank you for your suggestions. I have set up a date to talk to her about my feelings again. I will use what you said and make sure she knows that I love her.<BR> <BR>TheStudent - My wife is like you in many ways. She doesn't have many women friends either. And those she does have are going through some serious relationship problems too. I often wonder if she thinks we are having relationship problems. <P>Holly - thank you for responding back to me. I am trying to connect with my wife. I love her dearly. I write love notes to her often. We talk a lot. I give her back rubs. I just don't get much in return from her. I will keep trying.<P>Keystone - thank you too. As I said, we do talk, but maybe it's idle chatter and not real feeling being shared. I am going to talk to her in depth. I think I may push her away with my words but what else can I do.<P>new_beginning - How awful that experience must have been for you knowing it was wrong. I didn't even think of the possibility of her getting a disease. I'm sure she doesn't think of that either. <P>Samantha-MI - Thank you for the book recommendation. I think my wife would flip if I implied she was having an affair. She won't even read some of the other marriage books I have, she says she is too stressed right now. My wife is exactly 40. How did you know that?<P>Dazed and Confused - I think you are a very wise lady. I too think I can only tell her how I feel and hope. I can't control her and she would hate me for trying. <P><BR>CutieP - how do you keep your relationship with your male friend from going further? Would you be upset if your husband said he was uncomfortable with it? I wan to believe my wife is like you and that she knows the limits.<P>BlindSided - If your wife said she was uncomfortable with any of your women friends what would you say to her? Is there casual flirting going on? Like Gosh, you look nice today. Or stuff like that?<P>Sir Hurts Alot - I appreciate your thought in that I am asking folks in a infidelity forum. I sought this avenue because from what I read it seems that affairs get started as just friends. It is hard for me to believe that my wife would actually betray our vows. She is a Christian and we still go to church a lot. I fear she thinks she can handle this but as you have stated maybe she is blinded by what is going on. If I knew she gave her heart to this guy I think I could never trust her again. And I think our marriage would be over.<P>I almost feel I am in a hopeless situation here. If I confront my wife with how I feel, she would resent me and push me away and probably grow closer to this other man. If I let it go, she would grow closer to this other man. No win situation for me. I suppose the best thing to do is to tell her how I feel and if she does resent me and push me away then at least she knows how I feel and maybe in the back of her mind it would keep her from going too far with this.<P>Thank you everyone. You all are truly amazing.<P>Fool No More<p>[This message has been edited by Fool No More (edited October 20, 1999).]

It's when you have opposite sex friends who are very close & you say to yourself, "an affair <B>couldn't</B> happen to me" is when you need to start worrying an affair <B>could</B> happen to you! Else why would you be saying that?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Fool No More:<P>You've gotten some great advice here, and I don't think I could add very much, but I can tell you that my W's affair started this way. She and OM were co-workers. At first, she didn't even like him. But, they started hanging out a little and she got to know him and they became close. They worked at a nursing home, so W often felt like he "understood" her problems better than I did.<P>Anyway, I wish I'd been more insistent that she stop seeing him so much. I wish I'd sat her down and told her what this friendship was doing to me, but I didn't want to make waves. I didn't have any hard evidence and I didn't want her to feel like I was a jealous husband.<P>In retrospect, what I SHOULD have done was sit her down and tell her EXACTLY what I was feeling. I needed her to know that we should be connecting together instead of drifting apart. But, alas, I didn't do it.<P>You evidently have the opportunity to do that. Don't be mean. Don't be accusatory. Just tell her in the most loving way you can that her friendship with this man troubles you and that your marriage is the most important thing in the world to you and that you REALLY want to concentrate on each other.<P>In the grand scheme of things, what's more important to your W, her marriage and family, or this friend?<P>---------<P>Blindsided:<P>Believe me, EVERYBODY is capable of having an affair. I never would have thought my W was "the type" but she did it.<P>I like to think that I wouldn't do it, but I know that, given the right set of circumstances, it could have JUST as easily been me that cheated on her. The fact is, we can't really know what we'd do until the situation presents itself under the right circumstances.<P>You just never know. Ya know? <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

So, do I seem to be hearing everyone here say that their affairs were an "accident"?<P>No, I never said that an affair couldn't happen to me. I absolutely know that it can. Maybe that's why I'm so conscious about the choices I make with my women friends. All I'm saying is all of you CHOSE to do what you did. Some of you chose poorly in this area. I don't judge you for that. God knows, I've chosen poorly in other things.<P>What are the "right circumstances"? Under what circumstances are we willing to destroy our own personal integrity (aside from hurting our spouses)? <P>My counselor says we are desperate to make "connections". If we don't feel like we have that with our spouse, we will try to connect to almost anyone. Or we can work like hell to get the connection with our spouse back. That's what my focus has been. I believe as long as I maintain that connection, I have nothing to fear from the other.<P>In answer to some of your questions FNM. Is there anything wrong with telling someone they look nice? I do that with everyone because I know how I feel when others do it for me.<P>I realize I opened a hornets nest here. I will confess this - I do ask myself frequently about relationships with some of my women friends. I wonder sometimes if I'm rationalizing to keep their company. But they are such a big part of my life, that I can't imagine just cutting off my friends because I'm afraid of what MIGHT happen.<P>There. I've shown you the chink in my armor...what will you do with it?

FNM,<BR> I will try to answer your question the best I can. I have been friends with the guy<BR> for around 5 years.We dont have any fantasy<BR> of each other I guess. He knows my faults and I know his.We see each other twice a week about work and then he drops by maybe once a week just to talk. He is smart ,funny,<BR> hes great looking and he always smells good.<BR> If we werent married, well I just dont think<BR> we have enough in common, he likes to hunt and fish and I am a baseball,football, racing<BR> nut.My husband knows how often we talk, they also talk.The only problem we had was when he first got his computer and we talked<BR> too much and his wife got upset and he told me so I told him we just wouldnt do it anymore.<BR> She was pregnant and I'm sure she wasnt feeling all that great, I understood that.He<BR> didnt understand but after I explained how it is,he was ok with it. We had to deal with other people saying we were having an affair,<BR> we just laughed it off. He will run to me when him and his wife have problems so I have to tell him ,he needs to talk to her!<BR> I guess we could have an affair but what good would it do? I care too much about him<BR> to ruin his marriage. Hes having problems with his wife right now, shes starting to stay out late and he doesnt know where she is<BR> and shes talking more about being seperated.<BR> I told him about mb and told him to come here for advice too. If my husband has a problem with any of this all he has to do is tell me. I dont think in any way I am different from anybody else and I could have an affair just like alot of people here. The only thing is, I do stop and think about things because of my half brother and sister<BR> and what it did to them when my parents did what they did. <BR> ok ,I read what I just typed and now i'm wondering, maybe we do have some kind of attachment to each other.No ,no , I dont even think of him as being a guy, I think of him as being a friend.<BR>

Just adding my 2 cents worth.<P>It is possible to have opposite sex friends. But because of our weak sinful nature we get prideful whether it be puffed up (saying that it will never happen to me) or it be I want something better because I don't like what I am currently going through (this is what causes the affair, concern for self rather than concern for others:spouse, family, the person you are thing about having an affair with, or their family, God.) <P>Our BEST FRIEND has to be Jesus first. Once we develop that relationship which has to be done continually just as our relationship with our spouses has to be worked on continually, then all other relationships will take their appropriate place. We put ourselves in those positions that cause us to fail. Because of this website and the help of other believers, I have not. When I feel myself headed down that path, I remember the pain and go to Jesus to get my comfort because He is the only one who can fill that void that we all seek to have filled. That is where we are all getting confused. Yes, I get confused until He hits me between the eyes with a board that knocks me back into His reality which is the truth.<P>Sorry if I used words that inflamed. Without compromising His truth as He reveals it to me I said it as diplomatically as I could. I accept other views that receive the same scrutiny that my own views receive: the work over by His word. His word is the only thing that we can rely on. The Holy Spirit clears up any problems for you once you truly know HIm.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited October 21, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited October 21, 1999).]