I am in the process of planning what I want to do. I cannot say on this site because she is on the site as well

I dont want to bring up the bad talks about our marriage anymore, and I told her that if she committed to working this out I wouldnt do it anymore except in counseling if needed. Im really excited that I am getting another chance and that she is willing to try. I am determined to make things better for her and myself.

Ok, so here is where we stand right now.

Living seperately, dating 3 times per week, no sex, trying to get to know each other better. I already know that what I need to do right now is make sure I am always thinking about what I can do next to meet her EN's and make her happy. Does anyone else have an opinion on what else I should be doing. She says Im doing everything right but I want to go above and beyond, I want to WOW her and show her I am truly in this for the long haul. I have no plans of divorce, and no plans of neglecting her ever again. I want to make sure she knows that. I believe what we are working towards right now is living back together again. I think I like the slower approach more of living seperately but still working on a common goal.

Eliminate the LBs.

Living separately doesn't work in the long term. There's way too much independent behavior that takes place. Please be advised. Don't stick your head in the sand Jeff. Keep your eyes open.

You need to put some of your own boundaries into place. Don't be a doormat. Be a strong, loving husband, but if changes don't become apparent sooner rather than later, something's up.

Changes have been made apparent already. I can tell that she is really trying to work things out. Our counselor said it is ok for us to live separately because we basically already have been for the past 4 years with all of the neglect. She wants us to get to know each other better and see the true person on the inside. I can see that this separation time is ok for now, but of course there is a goal of living together again and everything being ok.

I think she was scared to try before because she didnt want to try and then end up hurting me again because she did not feel like she wanted to be with me anymore. I can understand her concern but I am here to say that I will never let her regret that decision and she will be treated like the Queen she is.

Jeff:

I'm going to lower the boom on you.

Call your counsler and let her know something:

"Your wife needs to move back in, and that is a non-negotiable item, and the counsler is going to propose it, and support it"

Your "counsler" says that you have lived like "roommates" for 4 years, its all YOUR FAULT, and that "seperation" is ok right now while WW figures things out.

Sorry, I'm throwing the red flag on that right NOW.

Yes, you DID live like roommates, and after reading HNHN, you realize how destructive to your marriage that behavior was. You gamed on the computer or whatever you did online and ignored your WW. When she asked/demanded you pay attention to her, you ignored her. You didn't choose a PA to fix your problem however, WW DID.

Please list the ten things you are going to do different for W in the future when she returns. This can be a simple as "no computer time when she is home." and "helping with the dishes" or "making dinner every Thursday" What you feel your W will respond too. And give that to your W. And then start DOING THEM.

Your WW is one phone call from OM to restarting her full-blown PA. Sure, his MOTHER is watching him, maybe even his BS. But with your WW out of the house, she is a phone call from a meeting with OM.

THAT is WHY she needs to move back home.

Your wife is WAYWARD. She may have been Christian at one time, but she is in a new religion now, and its called WAYWARD. She will LIE, EVADE, DODGE and whatever else she needs to do to make sure that you don't find out about what she is doing when you can't see her.

Understand something. She CHOOSE to have an PA, to step out for over 1.5 years. She MADE a CHOICE to LEAVE ALREADY. SHe liked the fact that you were still there, taking care of the house, making money, etc. NOTHING she threatens right NOW makes any difference. SHE MADE THE CHOICE TO GO. She just hasn't left. If SHE wants to stay out, she is more than welcome to. But coming home is non-negotiable. She already KNOWS that OM isn't going to "save" her. She COMES HOME. There are NO BARS on these doors. SHE CAN LEAVE ANYTIME. She just doesn't get to come back. Your counslor can speak this to her for you. But that's the bottom line.

When she's in your house, when she she's the changes you made, when she de-fogs, you have a good shot.

But she is a phone call away from being gone. And OM KNOWS she is living out of the home. When he wants some more of your WW, he will make the call. Its waiting there for him. Time for YOU to make sure that it doesn't happen.

Step up man. I may put MyRev on you if you don't.

LG

What about if the OM is living at home with his W working things out? I know this for a fact because I am in contact with his family.

You have good advice from LG, get your WW home.

Instead you throw out baloney: "What about if the OM is living at home with his W working things out? I know this for a fact because I am in contact with his family."

Why do you think the OM overnight, flipped like a switch, no longer lies?

Just another BH letting fear control his actions.

YOU want her to come back and love YOU.
Think about that. I'll come back to it in a moment.

IMO, your wife had an affair and is reluctant to move back home because you pretty much totally neglected her while you were married. She was possibly working, cooking, cleaning house, trying to talk to you, wanting to spend time with you, wanting to do fun things with you... and you made yourself unavailable to her. Who in their right mind would want to return to that? She has given and given and given until she has nothing else to give.

And now you want her to come back so YOU can feel better?

I think you'll make progress faster if you focus more on showing her, through consistent actions (not words and promises) that your focus is on making HER happy. Proving to HER that a return to the marriage is in HER best interest. That you can be the husband SHE needs and deserves.

Your behavior in the past has been selfish and independent. Your reason for desiring reconciliation is still selfish. In a marriage you need to focus on your spouse's happiness.

Because she has made deposits in your LB$ while you have sucked hers dry.

What are her top ENs?
Do you know about POJA?

I completely understand what you mean. I have reassured her that I will not go back to my old ways and she has told me several times she knows that. Her problem right now is that she doesnt know if she can ever forgive herself for what she has done, and basically that I am a reminder of it.

I have told her we can build such a stronger relationship out of this because of how close it will bring us getting past an A. I am sitting at home being patient, it is just so hard sometimes because I am lonely and depressed no matter what friends I hang out with. I think the reason for that is because I want her with me no matter what Im doing.

Jeff:

We tall BS's around here to: "Watch your wayward spouse's ACTIONS, not thier words."

Because talk is cheap.

Her talk is cheaper than yours, but you have provided her "assurances"

Cheap. Cheap.

Get her back into the house. THEN SHOW HER.

Do the list.

What, pray tell, are you going to do different.

Sure, you are SAYING the words. WHAT are the actions? WHAT can she look at and say: "YES, I see it now!"

If you do these things, she comes home, she SEES these things, and she starts recovery with you, then you have a shot.

Otherwise, she is stringing you along, and so are you. Because NO ONE gets to see the changed behavior. And since she is free as a bird (except for 3 two hour "dates" weekly) SHE never gets to see the "new you" in action.

But your right. Your way is easier.

BTW, the counseling sessions? Great cover for later for her. "Well, we tried counseling....Jeff just didn't get all the things he did wrong, so we divorced....But I'm SO MUCH happier with OM!"

Jeff to WW: "WW, here are the things that I feel that I was doing wrong in the past and have hurt/undermined our marriage. (have your list of what you feel was going wrong from her POV) There may be other things that we might discuss in the future. These are the new things that I am going to do to improve our marriage: (have your list of ten concrete actions you are going to do.) Now, all I ask of you, WW, is to move back home, so that you can see the improved me.

Does that sound better than: "WW, I assure you that I'm not the same guy for the past 5 years!"

This stuff ain't easy.

LG

I have taken these steps, we have talked about it in counseling. She has pointed out to me what I did wrong, I have listened as closely as I can to make sure none of those things happen again. I will be talking to our counselor to see what her opinion is on where we are at (Wednesday). I tried talking to her about moving back in and all it did was push her away, she moved back for a couple of days and it didnt do anything but make it worse.

Right now there are two options:
1. I keep begging her to come back, even if it is talking to her about how I will change and how much I am willing to change. I have already tested this and it will only end up bad.
2. I give her the time she wants, and continue counseling. The counselor said we need to get to know each other again before this can be a real marriage, unlike the fake one we had in the past.

I really feel like things are going a bit better. I do think she might be a little scared to feel like everything can be ok. I think that she wants to make sure she is taking the time to measure everything out in front of her before jumping back into it. She is protecting herself and I have to respect that.

She has pointed out to me what I did wrong, I have listened as closely as I can to make sure none of those things happen again.
Listening closely does not ensure you won't repeat the same behavior. What are you DOING (what actions are you taking) that show you are a changed person?

I tried talking to her about moving back in and all it did was push her away, she moved back for a couple of days and it didnt do anything but make it worse.
She doesn't need your talk. She needs to see your actions. Quit talking about the relationship. Quit talking about your marriage. Begin quietly making consistent changes in your behavior. What behavioral changes are you making?

I see where people have advised you over and over that your ACTIONS, not your WORDS are the key here. And yet you respond with ... TALK!

I'll ask again:
What are her top ENs?
Do you know about POJA?

Her top EN's are quality time, and seeing how much I appreciate her. I dont know what POJA is?

I have taken time to get her cards that took me a while to pick out, and bought little gifts that go along with them. They hold sentimental value between us for different reasons. I make sure to talk to her every night before she goes to bed and tell her good night, ask her how her day went when she gets off work. She has asked me not to talk about it, which is what Im really trying to do. I have made progress in that area but there is still a little there sometimes where I ask her how things are going. She wants me to not beg her to come back and keep asking over and over. I have not done that.

She has told me I am doing everything right, because our counselor told us we need to not just make each other read minds and guess at what we want. She said we need to verbalize them and make sure the other one knows exactly what it is. When I have asked her, she says Im doing a great job. She wanted me to stop texting her so much while at work, so I backed off. I am listening to everything she says and acting upon it, now I think its just a matter of time and how her feelings change.

Jeff,
POJA is Policy of Joint Agreement, see link.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html

GG

Ok, thanks.

Im not sure I understand the POJA though. Let me give you an example.

Right now we are living seperately and I would much rather live together and work through things. Her decision to live elsewhere hurts me deeply, but it is the only way she feels things can get better.

This is a decision that she made that hurts me, although we did agree to dates 3 times per week. I am doing this to make her happy and see if it works things out, although it hurts me.

How would the POJA come into effect here?

You want her to live at home, she doesn't.

POJA would be you guys coming to a solution that you are both enthusiastic about.

For example, she continues to live away but agrees to date you three nights per week.
Or she agrees to move back into the house but into a separate bedroom.

POJA is not always applicable. You have to have boundaries. For example, you cannot POJA how often she can see her affair partner.

POJA will help you in the future when you think about going out and spending your free time with buddies. Do you think your wife is going to be enthusiastic about that? POJA possibilities would be going to the same places, but with your wife. Doing the same activities (playing darts, cards, bowling, whatever) but with your wife. Having your buddies over to the house for a game of cards or to watch the football game with your wife there.

POJA is an important skill for you to learn, because you have a history of independent behavior.

You say her ENs are quality time and admiration. Quality time is something *every* couple should engage in on a weekly basis. 15 hours per week of undivided attention (without kids, inlaws, buddies) focusing on filling one another's ENs.

Admiration is an EN. How are you filling that particular EN? I get the impression (possibly incorrect) that your cards and gifts and texts are needy and not admiring. If that's the case you're missing the boat and you need to change your behavior. You're expending effort without making deposits into her LB$. You need to focus all of your efforts on making deposits into her LB$. You know admiration is a need of hers. How are you admiring her?

What if OM is telling her how shiny her hair is, how great she smells, how he loves the way her eyes light up when she laughs? What if he's praising how efficient she is, how considerate and thoughtful, how conscientious? What if he's singing her praises to his friends within earshot of her? Do you think that makes deposits?

And then you text her all day long. Does that make deposits, or does she feel hounded and persecuted? It depends on what the texts say, really. I'm just pointing out things that you need to be aware of when you interact with your wife.

There is a link in my signature to information about ENs. Read it and try to figure out what her top ENs are. I think you'll be a lot more effective at winning her back if you know what her top ENs are and you work on filling those.

Jeff, I'm sorry if I'm being hard on you. Your situation resonates strongly with me. I left my first husband because he was always busy outside the home and away from the family. I begged, I pleaded, I made suggestions. I asked him to turn off the answering machine for *one hour* during dinner time and immediately afterward. I asked for one date night per week. I asked him to drop one of his extra-curricular activities and instead he ran for office in an organization to which he belonged. I asked for very specific things and I was very clear about my feelings... and I was ignored for years.

I ended up leaving. I was an empty shell of a person, depressed, exhausted, worn out. I was not getting what I needed from that marriage and I did not know how to make my needs known to my exH. I tried everything I could think of, I endured for as long as I could, and then I was gone.

I think you have the ability to turn this around if you will LISTEN to your wife. But you have to LISTEN to her, learn what her ENs are, and jump into ACTION.

Empty words are not going to cut it with her. And by "empty words" I mean words not backed up by action. You can say how much you love her, and you can say it with a depth of feeling and emotion that makes you ache. To you those words will be overflowing with sincerity and full of honesty and intent. But to HER they are empty because all she hears is words without any concrete indicators to back it up.

It is imperative that you look at things from your wife's perspective and that you learn to love her in the manner in which SHE needs to be loved.

PLEASE read the ENs link in my signature and consider what your wife's top ENs are. You would also benefit from reading the book "His Needs, Her Needs".

Also, I notice from the way in which you describe your interactions with your wife that you focus on words and gifts. There is an excellent book you should read called the Five Love Languages by Chapman. Your love language is primarily words, followed up by gifts. When you want to show love, you do it through texts and cards, and meaningful thoughtful gifts.

If your wife's love language is acts of service, though, you're putting your efforts into the wrong area. If your wife's love language is acts of service you'd gain more ground with her by fixing the broken tail light on her car, by getting that pile of brush cleared out of the yard, by finally getting around to doing whatever it is she's been nagging you about for months on end.

If your wife's love language is acts of service, the gifts may seem okay at best and like you're trying to buy her love at worst. If her love language is acts of service, your incessant texts and cards may make her feel like she's being stalked and harassed.

Now, her love language may be words, in which case you're doing the right things - but you need to KNOW what her love language is and you need to speak to her in HER language. Otherwise she'll not hear what it is you have to say.

I appreciate all of the words of advice you are giving me. I have read the Five Love Languages and we both agreed the one that means way more to her than any other is quality time. I can only do that when she comes over, which I am. I am just throwing the cards in on top of it. I do not think I have been putting "needy" words really into the cards. I have put in there that I miss her, but not a huge emphasis on it. I have bought things to go along with the card that have meaning to them, even if they are something cheap.

I wish I would have done this 4 years ago, but she wouldnt open up to me. I should have seen it better a long time ago.

I have told her I will be cooking dinner every Monday, and we are having dates Monday and Friday, with Wednesady spending a small amount of time together then going to counseling. We have done things from going out to eat, shopping, and spending time at home.

I keep trying to think of ideas in my head of fun things to do with her. I dont want the same routine basic dates. I also think sometimes she thinks I am trying to buy her love, and Im really not trying to but wanting to do stuff that is fun.

I guess its just very hard for me to realize how her state of mind is right now, and its hard to help her understand that I will be here forever for her, and not the way I was before. I want her back so I can love her again and show it to her.

So what you're saying is that if she doesn't open up to you in the future, you're going to quit trying to meet her ENs?

Speaking of which... what are you doing to meet her EN of Admiration?

What are her other top ENs besides admiration?

Im saying that I wish she would have opened up a long time ago so that I would have seen how unhappy she was.

Her #1 thing is quality time, which I am spending every second I can with her, when she gives me the opportunity to. I schedule NOTHING in the way of our dates. I have been doing a lot of other things as well.

Here is a list of things I have changed and shown her:

1. Clean the house (did it very rarely before)
2. Laundry (I have now washed all of her and my clothes and put everything away)
3. Cooked dinner every Monday (would NEVER cook before)
4. Not pushed or made her feel bad about not having sex (BIG deal to her)
5. Bought her meaningful cards, with small and meaningful gifts.
6. Taken the dog to see her at work (she loves that)
7. Taken her lunch to her at work.
8. Not spending excessive amounts of time on the computer (5-10 minutes at most when she is here)
9. Listened to her, to find out what she wants.

I guess the list could go on even further, just cant think of every single thing right now, but I think you get the point.

She has told me that right now the most important things are not talking about the problem that we have, but talking more about how we are going to fix it. The other one is talking about having sex because she feels like thats what it was all about before, even when we dated. I dont feel like that is what it was all about, but she does. I know that I can still love her without sex, I guess its just an intimacy thing for me. I like it alot more than just the physical aspect. In some ways it makes me feel more like she is devoted to me and me only.